Zone1 Protestants say no one is "saved" unless Protestant. Catholics say Catholicism is THE Religion..

[hadit]

Rome did not get into the Church. The Church got into Rome (Western nations), just as the Church got into Eastern nations and into Egyptian/Oriental nations.

Right, but to pretend that the Catholic church is "the one that Christ founded" and all other denominations are false is an evil lie. To pretend that one must be a Catholic to be saved is an evil lie. I am dealing with another poster who keeps stating these lies and who keeps lying about what Protestants believe. Will you join me in condemning him for trying to divide the Body of Christ in such a manner? Jesus was all about us being one, not being divided by such things.

 

[DGS49]

The Bible, and especially the New Testament, includes scores of teachings, statements, and implications that appear to contradict one another, most prominently the "battle" between Faith and Good Works. Accordingly, since the Reformation, "we" have had armies of home-made theologians picking and choosing parts of it to support the reality that they find most comforting. This goes on to this very day....in this very thread. Indeed, the whole phenomenon of protestantism is based on the premise that ordinary people can read the Bible and interpret it for themselves, and have no need of Church leaders to sift through it to provide them with the watered-down versions that they - the leaders - want us to believe.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church has for centuries employed armies of theologians whose job it is to figure out the truth of the matter, recognizing the above - that there are many apparent contradictions - and their conclusions are what the Church teaches. Anyone wanting to know the source of Catholic teachings in this Information Age can go to sites of Catholic apologetics and find the actual Scriptural passages and the further guidance that comes from Church tradition. None of it is "made up." It is all based in Scripture, no matter what the Jimmy Swaggart's of the world are telling you.

In a way, it is amazing how seriously people take their own shit. They think that they can read a fourth generation translation of a text and figure out that everyone who has preceded them over the past 2000 years has been wrong, and they have figured it out. The arrogance is incredible.

 

[surada]

forkintheroad7

You don't speak for Catholicism.

 

[hadit]

The Bible, and especially the New Testament, includes scores of teachings, statements, and implications that appear to contradict one another, most prominently the "battle" between Faith and Good Works. Accordingly, since the Reformation, "we" have had armies of home-made theologians picking and choosing parts of it to support the reality that they find most comforting. This goes on to this very day....in this very thread. Indeed, the whole phenomenon of protestantism is based on the premise that ordinary people can read the Bible and interpret it for themselves, and have no need of Church leaders to sift through it to provide them with the watered-down versions that they - the leaders - want us to believe.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church has for centuries employed armies of theologians whose job it is to figure out the truth of the matter, recognizing the above - that there are many apparent contradictions - and their conclusions are what the Church teaches. Anyone wanting to know the source of Catholic teachings in this Information Age can go to sites of Catholic apologetics and find the actual Scriptural passages and the further guidance that comes from Church tradition. None of it is "made up." It is all based in Scripture, no matter what the Jimmy Swaggart's of the world are telling you.

In a way, it is amazing how seriously people take their own shit. They think that they can read a fourth generation translation of a text and figure out that everyone who has preceded them over the past 2000 years has been wrong, and they have figured it out. The arrogance is incredible.

Absolutely we are to look to the wise for guidance on the Scriptures, BUT we are also called to read them for ourselves and try the voices we hear against them. IOW, too much dependence on church leaders is just that, dependence on man instead of on God. When someone takes a single verse and tries to make a theology out of it, watch out, because those verse boundaries were not part of the originals.

 

[Meriweather]

Right, but to pretend that the Catholic church is "the one that Christ founded" and all other denominations are false is an evil lie. To pretend that one must be a Catholic to be saved is an evil lie. I am dealing with another poster who keeps stating these lies and who keeps lying about what Protestants believe. Will you join me in condemning him for trying to divide the Body of Christ in such a manner? Jesus was all about us being one, not being divided by such things.

There is no pretense. What some may not understand is that the Orthodox, Catholic, and Coptic churches are united with one another and that the foundation of each is through Christ and the Apostles. Parishioners of any of these three can take part in the worship of the others. It is going much to slowly, but unification between Catholic and Orthodox is being worked through, and is already fact between Catholic and Coptic. There are no great divisions in these three Churches.

Now, let's take other Christian denominations that broke away from any of the above three to follow someone else: Martin Luther, John Calvin, Joseph Smith, Henry VIII, etc. Not only did these break away from Catholic/Orthodox/Coptic churches, they broke away from the Sacraments and from Apostolic Traditions and Early Church practices.

Ask yourself, why come down so harshly on the Catholic Church without being equally harsh on the Orthodox and Coptic Churches? You have no more agreement with them about Sacraments, Traditions, and Early Church teachings that you do with Catholics. If you do agree with Orthodox and Coptic churches, then you are in agreement with the Catholic Church. We three stand together when it comes to Scripture, Traditions, Sacraments. We three work together towards greater unification. Which of the three are Protestants working with?

To sum up: The Catholic faith believes the Orthodox and Coptic Churches rightfully proclaim they were founded by Christ and the Apostles.

 

[hadit]

There is no pretense. What some may not understand is that the Orthodox, Catholic, and Coptic churches are united with one another and that the foundation of each is through Christ and the Apostles. Parishioners of any of these three can take part in the worship of the others. It is going much to slowly, but unification between Catholic and Orthodox is being worked through, and is already fact between Catholic and Coptic. There are no great divisions in these three Churches.

Now, let's take other Christian denominations that broke away from any of the above three to follow someone else: Martin Luther, John Calvin, Joseph Smith, Henry VIII, etc. Not only did these break away from Catholic/Orthodox/Coptic churches, they broke away from the Sacraments and from Apostolic Traditions and Early Church practices.

Ask yourself, why come down so harshly on the Catholic Church without being equally harsh on the Orthodox and Coptic Churches? You have no more agreement with them about Sacraments, Traditions, and Early Church teachings that you do with Catholics. If you do agree with Orthodox and Coptic churches, then you are in agreement with the Catholic Church. We three stand together when it comes to Scripture, Traditions, Sacraments. We three work together towards greater unification. Which of the three are Protestants working with?

To sum up: The Catholic faith believes the Orthodox and Coptic Churches rightfully proclaim they were founded by Christ and the Apostles.

I do not "come down on them" because I am not discussing things with a parishioner from one of them. I am discussing things with Catholics, one of whom is insistent on claiming that Christians can be found only in his narrow sect of Catholicism and wants to divide the Body of Christ. Do you support that poster in his efforts, or do you agree with him that Christians are found only in his sect of Catholicism?

 

[Meriweather]

I do not "come down on them" because I am not discussing things with a parishioner from one of them. I am discussing things with Catholics, one of whom is insistent on claiming that Christians can be found only in his narrow sect of Catholicism and wants to divide the Body of Christ. Do you support that poster in his efforts, or do you agree with him that Christians are found only in his sect of Catholicism?

forkintheroad7 is not unlike non-Catholics who see no value in the Pope(s). They also assign/imagine any Pope as in some way powerful. Vatican II was well intended; some changes--such as Mass/Worship--being said, not in Latin, but a common language, may have even been long overdue. Do I agree with every change Vatican II initiated? Of course not. Are the changes I do not favor the same changes other Catholic do not favor as well? No. The Church has always been comprised of people who disagree on any number of things, coming together, united in worship. We all agree on the basics of the teachings and traditions of Christ and the Apostles. We all agree on the Sacraments. All the other idiosyncrasies that make up parish life, we are like any other group or organization.

Vatican II in no way changed our worship, our founders, the rock of salvation, our sacrifice of the Mass each time we gather. We did not break away from the Mass and Sacraments--Protestants did. Much of what forkintheroad disagrees with seems to be how the Church sees non-Catholic/Orthodox/Coptic Christians. What was once considered clearly heretical has moved on to a different perspectives. Protestants are no longer seen as heretics, simply as those not fully united with all the teachings of Christ, the Apostles, and Early Christian traditions. That--not whether the Mass is said in English or Latin--is the true division. Does it truly matter whether the priest is at the head of the procession or at the end of process as Mass begins? Should things like this cause division? forkintheroad7 apparently thinks it should and is ready stomp over some truly great Popes over such trivia and ready to divide the Catholic Church again over these trifles.

My interest lies more in uniting each of us who are going to disagree over some aspect of faith/religion to return to worshiping together. Unification, not division. Unfortunately, those of you who dismiss Sacraments and Apostolic/Early Church practices and traditions are unlikely to welcome them back into their faith. So let's not make it any worse than it already is.

 

[forkintheroad7]

In a way, it is amazing how seriously people take their own shit. They think that they can read a fourth generation translation of a text and figure out that everyone who has preceded them over the past 2000 years has been wrong, and they have figured it out. The arrogance is incredible.

well, objectively, it is arrogance, yet these people can't be presumed to have bad motives since maybe they are just honestly seeking truth. However, I've found many people who just frankly don't give a rip about the truth.. therefore one can only conclude: arrogance (pride). In any case, getting the Bible right is one thing. The Catholics did that but also, the Catholics (until the 20th century) had the Real (tangible) Presence of Jesus in their Churches-- and had this even in the 20th century and into the 21st.

It's just that some Catholic Churches (or so is my experience, anyhow) are lacking that, which is scary since Jesus did say He would be with us until the End. Well, the way I look at it is: He is still with us, but not always easy to find (the tangible True Presence). If one does not have that in his/her Church, that person can pray the rosary (and should, regardless, and often)

 

[The Irish Ram]

so there are 3 choices we have here.

One is to say the Protestants are correct.
Another is to say the Catholics are correct
Another is to say neither is correct

There aren't many other options.
The Catholic Church boldly teaches there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. The Protestants, however, even though they believe that no Catholic is saved (many believe that anyway), they will not come out and say it clearly that they do indeed believe this.

Well.. one can draw his / her own inferences from this.

^^^^^ Lying bullshit.

 

[Z99]

The disconnect between Catholics and Christians is that Catholics, unlike Christians, do NOT view the Bible as the prevailing authority of God's word in the world.

In fact, the beauty of Catholicism is that they don't need the Bible because they believe that they alone, through apostolic succession, have the authority to change and create doctrines.

As a Christian I absolutely believe in the authority of the Bible whereas Catholics don't.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[Meriweather]

As a Christian I absolutely believe in the authority of the Bible whereas Catholics don't.

Incorrect.

In fact, the beauty of Catholicism is that they don't need the Bible because they believe that they alone, through apostolic succession, have the authority to change and create doctrines.

Which doctrines do you believe have been changed or created?

By the way, Catholics read, know, understand the entire Bible much better than those who broke away from early Christian practices, teachings, and traditions.

 

[Z99]

Incorrect.

Which doctrines do you believe have been changed or created?

By the way, Catholics read, know, understand the entire Bible much better than those who broke away from early Christian practices, teachings, and traditions.

I am correct and you are a Catholic cultist that rejects the original scriptures in favor of unbiblical doctrines such as praying to dead people, exalting church leaders, idolatry, and preaching a system of salvation that says that Jesus's sacrifice is INSUFFICIENT.

Galatians 1:6-9
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

 

[hadit]

Incorrect.

Which doctrines do you believe have been changed or created?

By the way, Catholics read, know, understand the entire Bible much better than those who broke away from early Christian practices, teachings, and traditions.

We all have traditions that we hold dear but we should not hold those traditions to be more sacred than fellow believers. When we start arguing that my tradition is better than your tradition, problems arise.