Progressive Va. School Refuses To Play Sports With Icky Christian Kids

[G.T.]

It's not logic if you can demonstrate that its premises do not follow.

Calling names and going raawr isn't how that's done. C'mon, you can do it - dont be such an emo snowflake.

Trying to pretend your own bigoted opinions follow a logic chain isn't how its done either.

and you are the one misusing snowflake, as I am still here, still debating with you, and not doing anything to stop you from being an ass.

You're getting emotional and having a temper tantrum of name calling and irrationality.

I* can defend my views, reasonably.

It's not bigoted to be against arbitrary discrimination based on a fairy tale.

Passion in the face of injustice is no sin, civility in the face of oppression is no virtue.

Passion is putting your foot down and finally acting in accordance with your beliefs - and I commend the school for doing so in the face of attempted intimidation by tough guys that try and enforce discrimination by hiding behind a fairy tale.

They are being snowflakes, they are pouting over not wanting to play over something that does not impact them at all physically.

And your anti-religious bigotry shows with your last line.

It almost makes me wish there is a hell, and that I can be there for the surprised look on your face.

I don't discriminate against folks who believe in fairy tales. They're even allowed into my home, I don't ban them from entry into my Organization like these Christian "snowflakes."

 

[martybegan]

Another worthy note, here...

America has moved really far (but not 100%) away from the outward acceptance of Racism.

This "anti racism" example has had a much longer time to become ingrained into our society - but anti homophobia is relatively new and so many folks cannot see the wisdom in using your speech to invalidate irrational discrimination in society.

It would be easier to see the Wisdom in what this school has done, if you replace the policy against homosexuals with a policy against Black Students -

Would they be "snowflakes" for skipping the game, then?

That's rhetorical in light of how ridiculous it would be to consider that being a "snowflake."

race and sexuality are not the same, despite your side's attempts to equate them.

And Christianity has no real acceptance of racism, despite what some southerners thought and made up in the 1800's.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, or at least homosexual acts are taboo across almost all major religions, and the taboo is explicit.

 

[G.T.]

MMMKAYYYYyy, slippery slope as a means to deny free speech.

Good luck, authoritarian.

Who's trying to deny them anything? Calling them out is not denying them anything, just as calling you out isn't denying you anything.

It's progressives that run to government to get their way, or try to ruin someone over their beliefs. The right learned their lesson on that with the Moral Majority Morons back in the 80's and 90's.

You are lashing out at them for using their speech in order to refuse the dignifying of discrimination. Further, you're doing so by calling all these middle schooler names based on tough-guy isms like "snowflake" and shit - which is an attempt at intimidation through name calling as opposed to rationally hashing out your disagreements.

Weak-minded trolling - on your part. But hey, I don't mind wasting a little bit of time exposing your petulant toddler-brained thought processes when it seems necessary.

I am criticizing them, I am lashing at YOU. big difference.

you are justifying your want of discrimination based on your own beliefs, making you no better than people like JoeB, only slighting not as much as an asshat.

Not dignifying bigotry with a Visit is something I'm completely fine with.

If they refused to Visit a school that didn't allow Blacks, I'd consider it the same situation. I'm 100% for revoking the Visit. Free Speech.

But they still are willing to play them at home? where they can taunt and jeer at them?

I don't know their intent to deal with a Home game against this Bigotted Fairy Tale school - I can call & ask if you're interested?

 

[martybegan]

Trying to pretend your own bigoted opinions follow a logic chain isn't how its done either.

and you are the one misusing snowflake, as I am still here, still debating with you, and not doing anything to stop you from being an ass.

You're getting emotional and having a temper tantrum of name calling and irrationality.

I* can defend my views, reasonably.

It's not bigoted to be against arbitrary discrimination based on a fairy tale.

Passion in the face of injustice is no sin, civility in the face of oppression is no virtue.

Passion is putting your foot down and finally acting in accordance with your beliefs - and I commend the school for doing so in the face of attempted intimidation by tough guys that try and enforce discrimination by hiding behind a fairy tale.

They are being snowflakes, they are pouting over not wanting to play over something that does not impact them at all physically.

And your anti-religious bigotry shows with your last line.

It almost makes me wish there is a hell, and that I can be there for the surprised look on your face.

I don't discriminate against folks who believe in fairy tales. They're even allowed into my home, I don't ban them from entry into my Organization like these Christian "snowflakes."

Do you run a school?

 

[martybegan]

Who's trying to deny them anything? Calling them out is not denying them anything, just as calling you out isn't denying you anything.

It's progressives that run to government to get their way, or try to ruin someone over their beliefs. The right learned their lesson on that with the Moral Majority Morons back in the 80's and 90's.

You are lashing out at them for using their speech in order to refuse the dignifying of discrimination. Further, you're doing so by calling all these middle schooler names based on tough-guy isms like "snowflake" and shit - which is an attempt at intimidation through name calling as opposed to rationally hashing out your disagreements.

Weak-minded trolling - on your part. But hey, I don't mind wasting a little bit of time exposing your petulant toddler-brained thought processes when it seems necessary.

I am criticizing them, I am lashing at YOU. big difference.

you are justifying your want of discrimination based on your own beliefs, making you no better than people like JoeB, only slighting not as much as an asshat.

Not dignifying bigotry with a Visit is something I'm completely fine with.

If they refused to Visit a school that didn't allow Blacks, I'd consider it the same situation. I'm 100% for revoking the Visit. Free Speech.

But they still are willing to play them at home? where they can taunt and jeer at them?

I don't know their intent to deal with a Home game against this Bigotted Fairy Tale school - I can call & ask if you're interested?

I would assume, and the article references this, that they will be jeered and catcalled purely because of their religious beliefs.

 

[G.T.]

Another worthy note, here...

America has moved really far (but not 100%) away from the outward acceptance of Racism.

This "anti racism" example has had a much longer time to become ingrained into our society - but anti homophobia is relatively new and so many folks cannot see the wisdom in using your speech to invalidate irrational discrimination in society.

It would be easier to see the Wisdom in what this school has done, if you replace the policy against homosexuals with a policy against Black Students -

Would they be "snowflakes" for skipping the game, then?

That's rhetorical in light of how ridiculous it would be to consider that being a "snowflake."

race and sexuality are not the same, despite your side's attempts to equate them.

And Christianity has no real acceptance of racism, despite what some southerners thought and made up in the 1800's.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, or at least homosexual acts are taboo across almost all major religions, and the taboo is explicit.

I dont really care to hear how you rationalize the discrimination against folks simply because of the sex they're attracted to, sorry. That's as bad to me as racism, because I know for a fact that I didn't consciously choose to be attracted to women - it happened as a natural occurrence. I couldnt get a boner for a man no matter how hard I fuckin tried, much in the same way I couldn't change the race I was born into.

 

[martybegan]

Another worthy note, here...

America has moved really far (but not 100%) away from the outward acceptance of Racism.

This "anti racism" example has had a much longer time to become ingrained into our society - but anti homophobia is relatively new and so many folks cannot see the wisdom in using your speech to invalidate irrational discrimination in society.

It would be easier to see the Wisdom in what this school has done, if you replace the policy against homosexuals with a policy against Black Students -

Would they be "snowflakes" for skipping the game, then?

That's rhetorical in light of how ridiculous it would be to consider that being a "snowflake."

race and sexuality are not the same, despite your side's attempts to equate them.

And Christianity has no real acceptance of racism, despite what some southerners thought and made up in the 1800's.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, or at least homosexual acts are taboo across almost all major religions, and the taboo is explicit.

I dont really care to hear how you rationalize the discrimination against folks simply because of the sex they're attracted to, sorry. That's as bad to me as racism, because I know for a fact that I didn't consciously choose to be attracted to women - it happened as a natural occurrence. I couldnt get a boner for a man no matter how hard I fuckin tried, much in the same way I couldn't change the race I was born into.

Dodging the question. typical.

 

[G.T.]

You're getting emotional and having a temper tantrum of name calling and irrationality.

I* can defend my views, reasonably.

It's not bigoted to be against arbitrary discrimination based on a fairy tale.

Passion in the face of injustice is no sin, civility in the face of oppression is no virtue.

Passion is putting your foot down and finally acting in accordance with your beliefs - and I commend the school for doing so in the face of attempted intimidation by tough guys that try and enforce discrimination by hiding behind a fairy tale.

They are being snowflakes, they are pouting over not wanting to play over something that does not impact them at all physically.

And your anti-religious bigotry shows with your last line.

It almost makes me wish there is a hell, and that I can be there for the surprised look on your face.

I don't discriminate against folks who believe in fairy tales. They're even allowed into my home, I don't ban them from entry into my Organization like these Christian "snowflakes."

Do you run a school?

I Manage employees, and none are discriminated against for irrational & crude reasoning.

 

[G.T.]

Another worthy note, here...

America has moved really far (but not 100%) away from the outward acceptance of Racism.

This "anti racism" example has had a much longer time to become ingrained into our society - but anti homophobia is relatively new and so many folks cannot see the wisdom in using your speech to invalidate irrational discrimination in society.

It would be easier to see the Wisdom in what this school has done, if you replace the policy against homosexuals with a policy against Black Students -

Would they be "snowflakes" for skipping the game, then?

That's rhetorical in light of how ridiculous it would be to consider that being a "snowflake."

race and sexuality are not the same, despite your side's attempts to equate them.

And Christianity has no real acceptance of racism, despite what some southerners thought and made up in the 1800's.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, or at least homosexual acts are taboo across almost all major religions, and the taboo is explicit.

I dont really care to hear how you rationalize the discrimination against folks simply because of the sex they're attracted to, sorry. That's as bad to me as racism, because I know for a fact that I didn't consciously choose to be attracted to women - it happened as a natural occurrence. I couldnt get a boner for a man no matter how hard I fuckin tried, much in the same way I couldn't change the race I was born into.

Dodging the question. typical.

There....


WAs...

No...

question.

But don't apologize. It's in the quote chain.

 

[DandyDonovan]

Another worthy note, here...

America has moved really far (but not 100%) away from the outward acceptance of Racism.

This "anti racism" example has had a much longer time to become ingrained into our society - but anti homophobia is relatively new and so many folks cannot see the wisdom in using your speech to invalidate irrational discrimination in society.

It would be easier to see the Wisdom in what this school has done, if you replace the policy against homosexuals with a policy against Black Students -

Would they be "snowflakes" for skipping the game, then?

That's rhetorical in light of how ridiculous it would be to consider that being a "snowflake."

race and sexuality are not the same, despite your side's attempts to equate them.

And Christianity has no real acceptance of racism, despite what some southerners thought and made up in the 1800's.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, or at least homosexual acts are taboo across almost all major religions, and the taboo is explicit.

I dont really care to hear how you rationalize the discrimination against folks simply because of the sex they're attracted to, sorry. That's as bad to me as racism, because I know for a fact that I didn't consciously choose to be attracted to women - it happened as a natural occurrence. I couldnt get a boner for a man no matter how hard I fuckin tried, much in the same way I couldn't change the race I was born into.

How do you know Christians weren't "born that way?" and yes you have in this thread specifically defended being bigoted towards Christians.

And further, what you have just described is part of your moral code, you are not permitted in this country to force your morals on another person any more than they are allowed to force their morals on you.

Gays should be free to be gay, Christians should be free to be Christian, and if any of both sides wish to not be associated with the other, they should be free to say no thanks.

This issue is actually the direct opposite of bakers baking cakes for gays. They shouldn't have to and gays shouldn't have to play basketball with Christians (well unless we are talking about government ran schools in which case that would be different, but this is a private school we are taking about)

 

[jehanne1431]

I don't discriminate against folks who believe in fairy tales. They're even allowed into my home, I don't ban them from entry into my Organization like these Christian "snowflakes."

.
That is because you do not understand the reality of sin or the gravity of sin. A good parent instructs their children, and disciplines their children, for their own good. They may not understand it but sometime later they will be grateful.

Christian schools do not allow homosexual teachers because it gives off a very wrong message. I seriously doubt they would allow anyone to teach there bragged of their adultery or love of porn. You see, you and yours all too often have this feigned appearance of caring for others. Promoting premarital sex, gay sex, choose your gender talk, is all bad for the soul. And reading 1st and 2nd graders a book called “Johnny has two Dads” is an abomination. I guess, until you come to the realization God, heaven and hell are all very real you will rely on your ego and wits to form your conscience instead.

Ps --- your using discrimination against blacks analogy is totally lame.

 

[G.T.]

Another worthy note, here...

America has moved really far (but not 100%) away from the outward acceptance of Racism.

This "anti racism" example has had a much longer time to become ingrained into our society - but anti homophobia is relatively new and so many folks cannot see the wisdom in using your speech to invalidate irrational discrimination in society.

It would be easier to see the Wisdom in what this school has done, if you replace the policy against homosexuals with a policy against Black Students -

Would they be "snowflakes" for skipping the game, then?

That's rhetorical in light of how ridiculous it would be to consider that being a "snowflake."

race and sexuality are not the same, despite your side's attempts to equate them.

And Christianity has no real acceptance of racism, despite what some southerners thought and made up in the 1800's.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, or at least homosexual acts are taboo across almost all major religions, and the taboo is explicit.

I dont really care to hear how you rationalize the discrimination against folks simply because of the sex they're attracted to, sorry. That's as bad to me as racism, because I know for a fact that I didn't consciously choose to be attracted to women - it happened as a natural occurrence. I couldnt get a boner for a man no matter how hard I fuckin tried, much in the same way I couldn't change the race I was born into.

How do you know Christians weren't "born that way?" and yes you have in this thread specifically defended being bigoted towards Christians.

And further, what you have just described is part of your moral code, you are not permitted in this country to force your morals on another person any more than they are allowed to force their morals on you.

Gays should be free to be gay, Christians should be free to be Christian, and if any of both sides wish to not be associated with the other, they should be free to say no thanks.

This issue is actually the direct opposite of bakers baking cakes for gays. They shouldn't have to and gays shouldn't have to play basketball with Christians (well unless we are talking about government ran schools in which case that would be different, but this is a private school we are taking about)

Are you dense?

I was asked several times about "force" and stated I was against it in every instance.

Then you're on a rant about force?

This messageboard has some realllllly sub par ******* posters, hottttdamn

 

[G.T.]

I don't discriminate against folks who believe in fairy tales. They're even allowed into my home, I don't ban them from entry into my Organization like these Christian "snowflakes."

.
That is because you do not understand the reality of sin or the gravity of sin. A good parent instructs their children, and disciplines their children, for their own good. They may not understand it but sometime later they will be grateful.

Christian schools do not allow homosexual teachers because it gives off a very wrong message. I seriously doubt they would allow anyone to teach there bragged of their adultery or love of porn. You see, you and yours all too often have this feigned appearance of caring for others. Promoting premarital sex, gay sex, choose your gender talk, is all bad for the soul. And reading 1st and 2nd graders a book called “Johnny has two Dads” is an abomination. I guess, until you come to the realization God, heaven and hell are all very real you will rely on your ego and wits to form your conscience instead.

Ps --- your using discrimination against blacks analogy is totally lame.

Sin is not an empirically established concept - it has no gravity in a rational discussion with me. "Belief" and "empiricism" are two different playing fields.

 

[DandyDonovan]

Another worthy note, here...

America has moved really far (but not 100%) away from the outward acceptance of Racism.

This "anti racism" example has had a much longer time to become ingrained into our society - but anti homophobia is relatively new and so many folks cannot see the wisdom in using your speech to invalidate irrational discrimination in society.

It would be easier to see the Wisdom in what this school has done, if you replace the policy against homosexuals with a policy against Black Students -

Would they be "snowflakes" for skipping the game, then?

That's rhetorical in light of how ridiculous it would be to consider that being a "snowflake."

race and sexuality are not the same, despite your side's attempts to equate them.

And Christianity has no real acceptance of racism, despite what some southerners thought and made up in the 1800's.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, or at least homosexual acts are taboo across almost all major religions, and the taboo is explicit.

I dont really care to hear how you rationalize the discrimination against folks simply because of the sex they're attracted to, sorry. That's as bad to me as racism, because I know for a fact that I didn't consciously choose to be attracted to women - it happened as a natural occurrence. I couldnt get a boner for a man no matter how hard I fuckin tried, much in the same way I couldn't change the race I was born into.

How do you know Christians weren't "born that way?" and yes you have in this thread specifically defended being bigoted towards Christians.

And further, what you have just described is part of your moral code, you are not permitted in this country to force your morals on another person any more than they are allowed to force their morals on you.

Gays should be free to be gay, Christians should be free to be Christian, and if any of both sides wish to not be associated with the other, they should be free to say no thanks.

This issue is actually the direct opposite of bakers baking cakes for gays. They shouldn't have to and gays shouldn't have to play basketball with Christians (well unless we are talking about government ran schools in which case that would be different, but this is a private school we are taking about)

Are you dense?

I was asked several times about "force" and stated I was against it in every instance.

Then you're on a rant about force?

This messageboard has some realllllly sub par ******* posters, hottttdamn

Man are you dumb. I didn't say you said anything about force. What I actually said was that this school shouldn't be forced to play the Christian school any more than a Christian baker should be forced to bake a cake for a gay.

 

[DandyDonovan]

I don't discriminate against folks who believe in fairy tales. They're even allowed into my home, I don't ban them from entry into my Organization like these Christian "snowflakes."

.
That is because you do not understand the reality of sin or the gravity of sin. A good parent instructs their children, and disciplines their children, for their own good. They may not understand it but sometime later they will be grateful.

Christian schools do not allow homosexual teachers because it gives off a very wrong message. I seriously doubt they would allow anyone to teach there bragged of their adultery or love of porn. You see, you and yours all too often have this feigned appearance of caring for others. Promoting premarital sex, gay sex, choose your gender talk, is all bad for the soul. And reading 1st and 2nd graders a book called “Johnny has two Dads” is an abomination. I guess, until you come to the realization God, heaven and hell are all very real you will rely on your ego and wits to form your conscience instead.

Ps --- your using discrimination against blacks analogy is totally lame.

Sin is not an empirically established concept - it has no gravity in a rational discussion with me. "Belief" and "empiricism" are two different playing fields.

So let me get this straight , YOUR moral code should come into play in a discussion but the moral code of anyone who disagrees with you should not?

Yep, that is EXACTLY what you are saying.

 

[G.T.]

Another worthy note, here...

America has moved really far (but not 100%) away from the outward acceptance of Racism.

This "anti racism" example has had a much longer time to become ingrained into our society - but anti homophobia is relatively new and so many folks cannot see the wisdom in using your speech to invalidate irrational discrimination in society.

It would be easier to see the Wisdom in what this school has done, if you replace the policy against homosexuals with a policy against Black Students -

Would they be "snowflakes" for skipping the game, then?

That's rhetorical in light of how ridiculous it would be to consider that being a "snowflake."

race and sexuality are not the same, despite your side's attempts to equate them.

And Christianity has no real acceptance of racism, despite what some southerners thought and made up in the 1800's.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, or at least homosexual acts are taboo across almost all major religions, and the taboo is explicit.

I dont really care to hear how you rationalize the discrimination against folks simply because of the sex they're attracted to, sorry. That's as bad to me as racism, because I know for a fact that I didn't consciously choose to be attracted to women - it happened as a natural occurrence. I couldnt get a boner for a man no matter how hard I fuckin tried, much in the same way I couldn't change the race I was born into.

How do you know Christians weren't "born that way?" and yes you have in this thread specifically defended being bigoted towards Christians.

And further, what you have just described is part of your moral code, you are not permitted in this country to force your morals on another person any more than they are allowed to force their morals on you.

Gays should be free to be gay, Christians should be free to be Christian, and if any of both sides wish to not be associated with the other, they should be free to say no thanks.

This issue is actually the direct opposite of bakers baking cakes for gays. They shouldn't have to and gays shouldn't have to play basketball with Christians (well unless we are talking about government ran schools in which case that would be different, but this is a private school we are taking about)

Are you dense?

I was asked several times about "force" and stated I was against it in every instance.

Then you're on a rant about force?

This messageboard has some realllllly sub par ******* posters, hottttdamn

Man are you dumb. I didn't say you said anything about force. What I actually said was that this school shouldn't be forced to play the Christian school any more than a Christian baker should be forced to bake a cake for a gay.

That's a non-sequitur and doesn't pertain to any of the points I was arguing, and so now I'm even MORE confused as to why the **** your quoted ME to say it.

I AGREE, they should NOT be forced.

And?

 

[martybegan]

Passion in the face of injustice is no sin, civility in the face of oppression is no virtue.

Passion is putting your foot down and finally acting in accordance with your beliefs - and I commend the school for doing so in the face of attempted intimidation by tough guys that try and enforce discrimination by hiding behind a fairy tale.

They are being snowflakes, they are pouting over not wanting to play over something that does not impact them at all physically.

And your anti-religious bigotry shows with your last line.

It almost makes me wish there is a hell, and that I can be there for the surprised look on your face.

I don't discriminate against folks who believe in fairy tales. They're even allowed into my home, I don't ban them from entry into my Organization like these Christian "snowflakes."

Do you run a school?

I Manage employees, and none are discriminated against for irrational & crude reasoning.

different situation, and if you aren't the owner an even more different situation.

 

[martybegan]

Another worthy note, here...

America has moved really far (but not 100%) away from the outward acceptance of Racism.

This "anti racism" example has had a much longer time to become ingrained into our society - but anti homophobia is relatively new and so many folks cannot see the wisdom in using your speech to invalidate irrational discrimination in society.

It would be easier to see the Wisdom in what this school has done, if you replace the policy against homosexuals with a policy against Black Students -

Would they be "snowflakes" for skipping the game, then?

That's rhetorical in light of how ridiculous it would be to consider that being a "snowflake."

race and sexuality are not the same, despite your side's attempts to equate them.

And Christianity has no real acceptance of racism, despite what some southerners thought and made up in the 1800's.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, or at least homosexual acts are taboo across almost all major religions, and the taboo is explicit.

I dont really care to hear how you rationalize the discrimination against folks simply because of the sex they're attracted to, sorry. That's as bad to me as racism, because I know for a fact that I didn't consciously choose to be attracted to women - it happened as a natural occurrence. I couldnt get a boner for a man no matter how hard I fuckin tried, much in the same way I couldn't change the race I was born into.

Dodging the question. typical.

There....


WAs...

No...

question.

But don't apologize. It's in the quote chain.

Dodging the statement then, you literalist ****.

 

[G.T.]

I don't discriminate against folks who believe in fairy tales. They're even allowed into my home, I don't ban them from entry into my Organization like these Christian "snowflakes."

.
That is because you do not understand the reality of sin or the gravity of sin. A good parent instructs their children, and disciplines their children, for their own good. They may not understand it but sometime later they will be grateful.

Christian schools do not allow homosexual teachers because it gives off a very wrong message. I seriously doubt they would allow anyone to teach there bragged of their adultery or love of porn. You see, you and yours all too often have this feigned appearance of caring for others. Promoting premarital sex, gay sex, choose your gender talk, is all bad for the soul. And reading 1st and 2nd graders a book called “Johnny has two Dads” is an abomination. I guess, until you come to the realization God, heaven and hell are all very real you will rely on your ego and wits to form your conscience instead.

Ps --- your using discrimination against blacks analogy is totally lame.

Sin is not an empirically established concept - it has no gravity in a rational discussion with me. "Belief" and "empiricism" are two different playing fields.

So let me get this straight , YOUR moral code should come into play in a discussion but the moral code of anyone who disagrees with you should not?

Yep, that is EXACTLY what you are saying.

Rationality and the ability to reason is what matters in a discussion of ideas.

If x, y, z person cannot rationally defend their discrimination, I fully agree with any school-system that will not dignify said discrimination with a Visit.

 

[martybegan]

I don't discriminate against folks who believe in fairy tales. They're even allowed into my home, I don't ban them from entry into my Organization like these Christian "snowflakes."

.
That is because you do not understand the reality of sin or the gravity of sin. A good parent instructs their children, and disciplines their children, for their own good. They may not understand it but sometime later they will be grateful.

Christian schools do not allow homosexual teachers because it gives off a very wrong message. I seriously doubt they would allow anyone to teach there bragged of their adultery or love of porn. You see, you and yours all too often have this feigned appearance of caring for others. Promoting premarital sex, gay sex, choose your gender talk, is all bad for the soul. And reading 1st and 2nd graders a book called “Johnny has two Dads” is an abomination. I guess, until you come to the realization God, heaven and hell are all very real you will rely on your ego and wits to form your conscience instead.

Ps --- your using discrimination against blacks analogy is totally lame.

Sin is not an empirically established concept - it has no gravity in a rational discussion with me. "Belief" and "empiricism" are two different playing fields.

You are not the center of the ******* universe, something most progressives find unfathomable.