Problem solved

[hazlnut]

How does holding someone other than the shooter accountable solve the problem?

If I rob you should the government punish hazel to stop me? How does that make any sense whatsoever?

How does not even allowing us to question accountability make things better? Is it not a fair question -- how was this person able to pass a background check? (if he really did)

Is it unfair to interview the person(s) who sold him the guns? Maybe they followed the law but wish they had somehow known. If they wish they had known the man was mentally deranged, then don't we owe it to them to look into doing better?

How does not even allowing ATF to share trace data with local law enforcement and CDC enable us to better enforce current law?

Most gun dealers can spot a straw purchaser or suspicious purchasing habits. Most won't tolerate that. Isn't that a good thing? Why shouldn't we hold the small percentage of bad apple dealers accountable?

How does punishing someone who didn’t do anything question accountability?

Do you think questioning is "punishment"?

What punishment are you taking about?

 

[hazlnut]

Repeal state and federal laws shielding gun manufacturers from product liability? Let juries in these communities sort out what a modified AR-15 is for. Imagine that, a company has to take responsibility
for a product doing what it was designed to do.


Let the ATF share trace data with local law enforcement and the CDC. You know, let everybody see the evidence and talk about better enforcement guidelines.


Lower the mental illness standard from adjudicated to diagnosed. (as it is in several states) Let psychiatrists report credible diagnosis to police who respond appropriately, removing weapons.



Let's have a gun grab -- from felons, wife beaters, and seriously mentally ill people. Everyone else, enjoy your hobby, I do.




The above are all reasonable statements, ideas for discussion. However, watch the mouth foaming that follows.....


Facebook could easily write an algorithm that would have flagged the Florida shooter. They could have forwarded the EVIDENCE of serious mental derangement to local police and SAVED LIVES.

Just another attempted end run around the 2nd amendment.

Get it repealed (if you can) if you want to end private gun ownership, which is what you would need to do to prevent things like this from happening. (even then it probably wouldn't work)

Explain specifically how anything I suggested is an "end run"...

Credible reports of serious mental illness...

Sharing of trade data?

The sharing of AIDS infectors isn't allowed, but you want to share data of people with mental problems.

HIPPA laws are important. But there needs to be a balance. Also, sharing info with police doesn't make it public.

People who work with children in CA and other states are required by law to report child abuse -- bruises, statements by the child, etc. At which time a social worker and police visit the home and look into it. Is this perfect, NO. Have millions of children been rescued from horrible situations. YES.

If a health care professional or teacher observes disturbing behavior and threats, when the police investigate, why aren't they allowed to temporarily remove guns IF CERTAIN CRITERIA ARE MEANT. Why are police not allowed to take preventative measures?

I believe one reason is because more that 60% of gun deaths are suicides and our society cynically sees this as "victimless" or a choice. Suicide happens when Major Depression or PTSD goes untreated. People who take anti-dresspents or anti-psychotics are not dangerous, when they take their meds and get needed therapy. However, when they stop therapy, go off meds--THEIR CHOICE-- if their behavior poses an obvious risk, then why don't we, as a compassionate society, intervene?

You’re a ******* control freak, basically is what you’re saying.
Lumping suicides together with homicides/murder is lying...

Lumping? What are you talking about? I'm just quoting the stat 60% -- if you think I made it up, check it out.

Let me be clear - I do not believe suicides are victimless as family and love ones are devastated.

 

[Rustic]

It's typically people who don't want to comply with federal warrants that push that type of agenda. People who think that police outside their home with a lawful arrest warrant are a "threat" and they have the right to fight back.

That is a different issue. That is not a serious armed rebellion.

Ironically, the more realistic scenario causing serious armed rebellion is if this Florida shooting causes those in power to enact total confiscation. Every serious gun owner would resist.

Total confiscation would never happen. That's a crazy Alex Cox make believe scare scene. Think about the logistics of getting every member of law enforcement and their support staff to turn on their friends and neighbors, the people they go to church with, the people their kids go to school with... If you know policemen, or law enforcement professionals, they don't think like that.

Then what, a police state? That would shut down our consumer driven economy, dry up the tax base, and collapse the markets. There's no upside to a "gun grab".

I trust the checks and balances in our system, the oversight, the courts to protect our rights when states over reach - DC v Heller.

What's broken is when one industry is able to shutdown a discussion about reasonable solutions before it even gets started.

Frivolous gun control laws are not a reasonable conversation...

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Frivolous guown control laws are not a reasonable conversation...

By "conversation" they mean "turn in your guns".

We all know it.

 

[Rustic]

Just another attempted end run around the 2nd amendment.

Get it repealed (if you can) if you want to end private gun ownership, which is what you would need to do to prevent things like this from happening. (even then it probably wouldn't work)

Explain specifically how anything I suggested is an "end run"...

Credible reports of serious mental illness...

Sharing of trade data?

The sharing of AIDS infectors isn't allowed, but you want to share data of people with mental problems.

HIPPA laws are important. But there needs to be a balance. Also, sharing info with police doesn't make it public.

People who work with children in CA and other states are required by law to report child abuse -- bruises, statements by the child, etc. At which time a social worker and police visit the home and look into it. Is this perfect, NO. Have millions of children been rescued from horrible situations. YES.

If a health care professional or teacher observes disturbing behavior and threats, when the police investigate, why aren't they allowed to temporarily remove guns IF CERTAIN CRITERIA ARE MEANT. Why are police not allowed to take preventative measures?

I believe one reason is because more that 60% of gun deaths are suicides and our society cynically sees this as "victimless" or a choice. Suicide happens when Major Depression or PTSD goes untreated. People who take anti-dresspents or anti-psychotics are not dangerous, when they take their meds and get needed therapy. However, when they stop therapy, go off meds--THEIR CHOICE-- if their behavior poses an obvious risk, then why don't we, as a compassionate society, intervene?

You’re a ******* control freak, basically is what you’re saying.
Lumping suicides together with homicides/murder is lying...

Lumping? What are you talking about? I'm just quoting the stat 60% -- if you think I made it up, check it out.

Let me be clear - I do not believe suicides are victimless as family and love ones are devastated.

 

[hazlnut]

My entire country is a “gun free zone”. Only cops and crooks have guns.

Only the USA lets anyone who wants a gun to buy an AR15. 35,000 people a year die by gun violence in the US every year.

Semi-automatic weapons and 2nd Amendment have become the American suicide pact.

You're welcome, by the way.

I'll explain.

The U.S. has the most powerful military the world has ever known. That military likely protects your country. The people controlling our military have the power to do REALLY horrible things. We, the people, keep those people in check by the threat of armed rebellion.

Because we, the people are armed,, your country is allowed to exist without being overrun by warlords.

Again, you're welcome.

If you think we (citizens) pose any threat of armed rebellion, you're nuts.

Our economy is consumer driven and our Government functions on tax revenue. A military state type gun grab would destroy both-- the U.S. Government has no interest in ruining its own economy and tax base.

The majority of the Military and Cops have a like mindset.
If it ever comes to armed rebellion you can bet they'll be leading the charge.

What charge?

Do you have a problem with the english language?

You were not very clear or articulate in your post. You were not using the English language in manner that indicated a fully realized thought.

I was giving you the opportunity to clarify.

Lead what charge? In the fantasy uprising? Are you saying military and police will lead the charge in something that is complete fantasy and will never happen? Great! Glad to know they're on the fictional side of good... or was it bad?

 

[Fugazi]

Gun Control is similar to the "War on Drugs", in that it's trying to solve the effect instead of the cause.
It is incomprehensible to me how someone could kill, like what we saw yesterday. Somehow we need to figure out what breaks inside someone to allow them to kill like this, and stop them beforehand, hopefully via counseling, or via incarceration, but I don't know how you lock someone up for something they may do in the future, that is a slippery slope that terrifies me.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

You're welcome, by the way.

I'll explain.

The U.S. has the most powerful military the world has ever known. That military likely protects your country. The people controlling our military have the power to do REALLY horrible things. We, the people, keep those people in check by the threat of armed rebellion.

Because we, the people are armed,, your country is allowed to exist without being overrun by warlords.

Again, you're welcome.

If you think we (citizens) pose any threat of armed rebellion, you're nuts.

Our economy is consumer driven and our Government functions on tax revenue. A military state type gun grab would destroy both-- the U.S. Government has no interest in ruining its own economy and tax base.

The majority of the Military and Cops have a like mindset.
If it ever comes to armed rebellion you can bet they'll be leading the charge.

What charge?

Do you have a problem with the english language?

You were not very clear or articulate in your post. You were not using the English language in manner that indicated a fully realized thought.

I was giving you the opportunity to clarify.

Lead what charge? In the fantasy uprising? Are you saying military and police will lead the charge in something that is complete fantasy and will never happen? Great! Glad to know they're on the fictional side of good... or was it bad?

Yeah...because we all know the populace has never put down a repressive government.
Read some history ya moron.

 

[Rustic]

How does holding someone other than the shooter accountable solve the problem?

If I rob you should the government punish hazel to stop me? How does that make any sense whatsoever?

How does not even allowing us to question accountability make things better? Is it not a fair question -- how was this person able to pass a background check? (if he really did)

Is it unfair to interview the person(s) who sold him the guns? Maybe they followed the law but wish they had somehow known. If they wish they had known the man was mentally deranged, then don't we owe it to them to look into doing better?

How does not even allowing ATF to share trace data with local law enforcement and CDC enable us to better enforce current law?

Most gun dealers can spot a straw purchaser or suspicious purchasing habits. Most won't tolerate that. Isn't that a good thing? Why shouldn't we hold the small percentage of bad apple dealers accountable?

What they should do is make background checks Instant, and regular purchasers have a card where they don’t have to go through a background check every time.
We should not be employing FBI agents to check everyone’s background unnecessarily for every firearm purchase. It’s a waste of money and time...

 

[Rustic]

I know your intentions are good but the Facebook idea is the scariest idea I have seen to date.

If you own a Sandwich shop and every Thursday a customer comes in and is overheard saying really disturbing things, showing you his gun, talking about "doing something big"... and you call the police to report your concerns... why is that scary?

It would cost facebook some money to hire people to make sure it's done in manner that is effective and not opening them up to liability, but passing on information to law enforcement about a person who meets REASONABLE CRITERIA of concern... if they save a life, isn't it worth the extra expense.

Let me amend myself - the overall business policy and implementation would be complicated and expensive. Writing the code to flag people for review would be easy.

Ever try to load a video with copyrighted music onto facebook. They can flag that in a minute... pretty sure they can flag people showing off guns and using language or phrases indicating a threat... hiring staff to review the posts and coming up with a criteria for responsible reporting in the interest of public safety... expensive yes... worth doing?

Why is this hard? Oh right, they'll lose a few customers when it gets out... Darn, our profits might dip...

That is very Orwellian of you

 

[Rustic]

Any firearm purchases should be 100% private, and/or ownership to be 100% private it’s no one’s business but the owners… Then nanny state can not be trusted.

 

[hazlnut]

Frivolous guown control laws are not a reasonable conversation...

By "conversation" they mean "turn in your guns".

We all know it.

Yep. There it is.

You take statements that have noting to do with an all out gun confiscation and without logic or any real attempt at an honest discussion go right to "you don't REALLY want to talk, you just want my guns."

So, my words, my questions haven't fooled you? They were a trap! It was so smart of you to not even attempt to answer my posed questions directly/honestly -- straw men and "slippery slope" arguments saved you!!

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

How does holding someone other than the shooter accountable solve the problem?

If I rob you should the government punish hazel to stop me? How does that make any sense whatsoever?

How does not even allowing us to question accountability make things better? Is it not a fair question -- how was this person able to pass a background check? (if he really did)

Is it unfair to interview the person(s) who sold him the guns? Maybe they followed the law but wish they had somehow known. If they wish they had known the man was mentally deranged, then don't we owe it to them to look into doing better?

How does not even allowing ATF to share trace data with local law enforcement and CDC enable us to better enforce current law?

Most gun dealers can spot a straw purchaser or suspicious purchasing habits. Most won't tolerate that. Isn't that a good thing? Why shouldn't we hold the small percentage of bad apple dealers accountable?

how was this person able to pass a background check?

Good question, maybe it was because the FBI was so intent of preventing a candidate from winning a general election that this guy slipped through the cracks. Just proves again that the government isn't the answer, but is the PROBLEM.....

 

[Dragonlady]

40 years ago an altercation would escalate until there was a fist fight. Nobody went to jail or got suspended for it and within a couple minutes that particular issue was solved. You went home took care of the split lip or black eye and moved on. Kids didn’t get a chance to become such out of control assholes before getting knocked down a peg so it didn’t reach this point. Oh yeah, the parking lot was full of vehicles with guns and everyone had pocket knives on them. They were never used though because pulling a weapon during a fist fight was worse than losing the fight. You were labeled a **** for doing it.

Society has become unnatural. It has artificially suppressed male structure establishment. All other animals on earth are allowed to establish this structure, but not humans. Men are not allowed to act like men. It is as Chuck Palunak wrote in Fight Club -- we are generation of men raised by women.

This is primal coding and instinct. It cannot be suppressed forever. When left alone, men naturally select a leader and all others either challenge the leader or fall in line. Men are designed for this purpose.

Let men be men and a lot of these problems go away.

If you think we (citizens) pose any threat of armed rebellion, you're nuts.

Our economy is consumer driven and our Government functions on tax revenue. A military state type gun grab would destroy both-- the U.S. Government has no interest in ruining its own economy and tax base.

The majority of the Military and Cops have a like mindset.
If it ever comes to armed rebellion you can bet they'll be leading the charge.

What charge?

Do you have a problem with the english language?

You were not very clear or articulate in your post. You were not using the English language in manner that indicated a fully realized thought.

I was giving you the opportunity to clarify.

Lead what charge? In the fantasy uprising? Are you saying military and police will lead the charge in something that is complete fantasy and will never happen? Great! Glad to know they're on the fictional side of good... or was it bad?

Yeah...because we all know the populace has never put down a repressive government.
Read some history ya moron.

The last major government change via uprising was the communist takeover of China. And prior to that the Bolshevik uprising.

All of the regime changes you speak of came before the turn of the last century and the technological advances in weaponry of the last 100 years?

What do you think the chances are that Russian peasants could overthrow the Putin government.

The only way a large first world government can now be defeated is with a modern well equipped army. Armed civilians will go down like the Branch Davidians.

 

[irosie91]

put the parents in jail--------crazy kid went out and managed to buy -------no a BB gun-----AN ASSAULT
RIFLE-----and they did nothing

The "crazy kid" is 19. How is that the parent's fault?

And for the record, there is really no such thing as an assault rifle, that is just a made up term.

People know their kids are in trouble. All these reports are this kid was angry, making threats against others, and obsessed with guns. That people in his social circle circle said that if someone were to go to school with a gun, it would be this guy.

There has to be a discipline trail leading to his expulsion. This isn’t someone who just “snapped”. This is a guy who was living in a powder keg while giving off sparks. Everyone saw it. Nobody did anything.

If your child is mentally ill, untreated and acting out, to say the parents bear no responsibility for his behaviour is a fallacy. It is their responsibility in society to raise their child to be a functioning, productive adult. These people raised a homocidal sociopath and you say they bear no responsibility for that?

Gun free zones.

My entire country is a “gun free zone”. Only cops and crooks have guns.

Only the USA lets anyone who wants a gun to buy an AR15. 35,000 people a year die by gun violence in the US every year.

Semi-automatic weapons and 2nd Amendment have become the American suicide pact.

Shit. For brains, lumping suicide together with homicide is lying...

no------there are lots of reason to CLUMP--------in many----certainly not all----but many cases

 

[Defiant1]

Just another attempted end run around the 2nd amendment.

Get it repealed (if you can) if you want to end private gun ownership, which is what you would need to do to prevent things like this from happening. (even then it probably wouldn't work)

Explain specifically how anything I suggested is an "end run"...

Credible reports of serious mental illness...

Sharing of trade data?

The sharing of AIDS infectors isn't allowed, but you want to share data of people with mental problems.

HIPPA laws are important. But there needs to be a balance. Also, sharing info with police doesn't make it public.

People who work with children in CA and other states are required by law to report child abuse -- bruises, statements by the child, etc. At which time a social worker and police visit the home and look into it. Is this perfect, NO. Have millions of children been rescued from horrible situations. YES.

If a health care professional or teacher observes disturbing behavior and threats, when the police investigate, why aren't they allowed to temporarily remove guns IF CERTAIN CRITERIA ARE MEANT. Why are police not allowed to take preventative measures?

I believe one reason is because more that 60% of gun deaths are suicides and our society cynically sees this as "victimless" or a choice. Suicide happens when Major Depression or PTSD goes untreated. People who take anti-dresspents or anti-psychotics are not dangerous, when they take their meds and get needed therapy. However, when they stop therapy, go off meds--THEIR CHOICE-- if their behavior poses an obvious risk, then why don't we, as a compassionate society, intervene?

You’re a ******* control freak, basically is what you’re saying.
Lumping suicides together with homicides/murder is lying...

Lumping? What are you talking about? I'm just quoting the stat 60% -- if you think I made it up, check it out.

Let me be clear - I do not believe suicides are victimless as family and love ones are devastated.

So people are supposed to stay alive against their will because of "loved" ones and family.

Sounds like slavery.

 

[hazlnut]

That is very Orwellian of you

I remember that scene in 1984. Where a reasonable concern by a store owner resulted in a thoughtful investigation by police. What page was that on?

Or was it Animal Farm.... when the police stopped by to speak with someone for a few minutes and then observe their behavior... how dare they!!

 

[Esmeralda]

His parents were dead...mom died just recently. What's your Plan B?

Yes. There is no way to stop people like this kid from slipping through the cracks. His mother was likely the one thing keeping him from losing his shit and going postal.

It is too hard to patrol and take preemptive measures on things like this. Anyone could snap.

That's why #ShootBack is the only real solution short of infringing on rights and disarming the people. We will NEVER stand for disarming, so shoot back.

The only real and sane solution is to get rid of guns. The US is not a sane society.

 

[Crixus]

Repeal state and federal laws shielding gun manufacturers from product liability? Let juries in these communities sort out what a modified AR-15 is for. Imagine that, a company has to take responsibility
for a product doing what it was designed to do.


Let the ATF share trace data with local law enforcement and the CDC. You know, let everybody see the evidence and talk about better enforcement guidelines.


Lower the mental illness standard from adjudicated to diagnosed. (as it is in several states) Let psychiatrists report credible diagnosis to police who respond appropriately, removing weapons.



Let's have a gun grab -- from felons, wife beaters, and seriously mentally ill people. Everyone else, enjoy your hobby, I do.




The above are all reasonable statements, ideas for discussion. However, watch the mouth foaming that follows.....


Facebook could easily write an algorithm that would have flagged the Florida shooter. They could have forwarded the EVIDENCE of serious mental derangement to local police and SAVED LIVES.

Also, let’s open up the schools to law suits brought by victims. Let’s also do that for casinos, night clubs, pizza joints any place where large crowds gather, make it legal to sue them for not provieding adequate security. Then we can maybe look at opening up law enforcement for not being there fast enough. Then, let’s open up social media as well. Let’s make it so a victim can sue Facebook or twitter every time their network is used in any way to promote the actions of a mass murderer. Yeah, let’s also sue the car companies for making it possible for these shooters to transport their weapons. Oh, also the guys who make bullets. Sue them to.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

40 years ago an altercation would escalate until there was a fist fight. Nobody went to jail or got suspended for it and within a couple minutes that particular issue was solved. You went home took care of the split lip or black eye and moved on. Kids didn’t get a chance to become such out of control assholes before getting knocked down a peg so it didn’t reach this point. Oh yeah, the parking lot was full of vehicles with guns and everyone had pocket knives on them. They were never used though because pulling a weapon during a fist fight was worse than losing the fight. You were labeled a **** for doing it.

Society has become unnatural. It has artificially suppressed male structure establishment. All other animals on earth are allowed to establish this structure, but not humans. Men are not allowed to act like men. It is as Chuck Palunak wrote in Fight Club -- we are generation of men raised by women.

This is primal coding and instinct. It cannot be suppressed forever. When left alone, men naturally select a leader and all others either challenge the leader or fall in line. Men are designed for this purpose.

Let men be men and a lot of these problems go away.

The majority of the Military and Cops have a like mindset.
If it ever comes to armed rebellion you can bet they'll be leading the charge.

What charge?

Do you have a problem with the english language?

You were not very clear or articulate in your post. You were not using the English language in manner that indicated a fully realized thought.

I was giving you the opportunity to clarify.

Lead what charge? In the fantasy uprising? Are you saying military and police will lead the charge in something that is complete fantasy and will never happen? Great! Glad to know they're on the fictional side of good... or was it bad?

Yeah...because we all know the populace has never put down a repressive government.
Read some history ya moron.

The last major government change via uprising was the communist takeover of China. And prior to that the Bolshevik uprising.

All of the regime changes you speak of came before the turn of the last century and the technological advances in weaponry of the last 100 years?

What do you think the chances are that Russian peasants could overthrow the Putin government.

The only way a large first world government can now be defeated is with a modern well equipped army. Armed civilians will go down like the Branch Davidians.

Wow....you dont even know the history of your own Country.
Assuming you're actually an American,but then I wouldnt be surprised if you were a NORK if it wasn't for the internet availability.