President spanks Lauer's ass in the Oval Merged with GW V. Matt Lauer

[Bonnie]

"BLUR the LINE".... "BLUR the LINE"? :baby4:


What a Jackass!!

 

[Bonnie]

I am listening to your views, and I am not going to "argue" with you here. That's why nothing gets done in DC..Arguin... If we did everything nicely, and treated the people who hate us with manners, then there will be no change. You can't police terrorism. You can't act after the fact. You have to know ahead of time. I asked earlier and it hasn't been answered. Where exaclty has these reports of what we are doing to prisoners come from? If this is so Top Secret then how does CNN know about it? Is it truly just speculation they are doing this or do they have facts. Cause like you said. This may piss some good people off in Iraq. Well...I can understand where you are coming from; but is it true? The torture? Exaclty what type of torture is going on, and like I said....How does anyone except the agents doing it and the President know about it? If someone is leaking this type of information to the press, be it someone in congress or whatever, then they need to be inprisoned. Like you said. We don't need to add fuel to an already fierce situation. But old tactics don't work either. I swear I wish they would keep this crap out of the public..I think politicians spend more time in front of a camera trying to look good than they do actually discussing I.E. arguing about these subjects. I mean hell. It's not like they put these views to a vote that Americans can vote on. Then keep your mouth shut and do your job. And for the love of God....News people....Stop trying to cause trouble. Hell...I half the time think Journalist are terrorist too....Half kidding there.:duh3:

Welcome to the board!!!

 

[roadhouse158]

Thanks...Nice to be on a board that has both Republican and Democrats. One where constant name calling isn't used. Best way to get something done is through comprimise. Not calling each other names. Last time I checked we were all Americans.:arabia:

 

[1549]

I am listening to your views, and I am not going to "argue" with you here. That's why nothing gets done in DC..Arguin... If we did everything nicely, and treated the people who hate us with manners, then there will be no change. You can't police terrorism. You can't act after the fact. You have to know ahead of time. I asked earlier and it hasn't been answered. Where exaclty has these reports of what we are doing to prisoners come from? If this is so Top Secret then how does CNN know about it? Is it truly just speculation they are doing this or do they have facts. Cause like you said. This may piss some good people off in Iraq. Well...I can understand where you are coming from; but is it true? The torture? Exaclty what type of torture is going on, and like I said....How does anyone except the agents doing it and the President know about it? If someone is leaking this type of information to the press, be it someone in congress or whatever, then they need to be inprisoned. Like you said. We don't need to add fuel to an already fierce situation. But old tactics don't work either. I swear I wish they would keep this crap out of the public..I think politicians spend more time in front of a camera trying to look good than they do actually discussing I.E. arguing about these subjects. I mean hell. It's not like they put these views to a vote that Americans can vote on. Then keep your mouth shut and do your job. And for the love of God....News people....Stop trying to cause trouble. Hell...I half the time think Journalist are terrorist too....Half kidding there.:duh3:

Before I dive in to our discussion, I too would like to extend you a warm welcome.

You are right that terrorism can not be policed and that we have to stay ahead of the terrorists. What we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is like pulling weeds. Have you ever noticed that every spring the weeds always seem to grow back in the very same places? The same is true for Iraq and Afghanistan, if we do not eliminate the causes of terrorism, the weeds will keep coming back. Social structure, environment (not the weather kind, but rather the emotional, social climate), education, economics, and believe it or not the human emotion of shame, all create terrorists. Winning the war on terror is not about killing, it is about building schools, improving utilities, eliminating poverty.

It is actually important to have a diligent and skeptical media. That lesson was learned at the turn of the last century when the media worked hard to successfully protect consumers from big businesses, protect workers from poor conditions, and the media helped to eliminate some of the corruption that plagued politics. They were not alone in these battles, but the media's ability to sway opinion helped greatly. A more recent example would be media coverage of Vietnam. The media easily exposed the failures that occurred in Vietnam while also making it clear that wars are very bloody. The nation had never seen war in such a way and public sentiment obviously changed as a result.

Pale Rider:How did they become so anti-American? Why do they want to champion everything that is BAD for America?

What exactly is anti-American about pursuing questions of injustice in our government? How can you tell what is good or bad for America? If our government did break laws, is this good for America?

What if I said you are anti-American for deeming all opposing views as anti-American? Your accusations seem very Soviet to me. Perhaps Pale Rider did not read Arthur Miller in school.

 

[nt250]

The classic "they cut heads off" response. We are the United States of America, champions of the free world, we should hold ourselves to the highest standards.

Some see these tactics as a way of winning the war on terror. Perhaps one of the torture sessions will yield information about a cave packed with terrorists. Maybe we will go there and kill them. It still does not matter. The nature of our conflict in Iraq creates just as many terrorists as we can kill. The idiocy of a war on terror is that you are worsening the conditions that breed terrorists.

The more brutal our tactics, the more resentment we create in Iraq. Not just among hardliners, but among regular everyday people who want to see their compatriots treated in a fair and just manner. Take that away, and we alienate Iraqis, anger them, and create extremist views.

I totally disagree. Our problem is that we are not brutal enough. We are dealing with an enemy who despises weakness, and nothing less than total domination is seen as just that. Retreat. Weakness. That's what causes them to have contempt for us.

We are trying to fight an enemy who knows no reason. And enemy who considers death in defense of Islam to be the highest honor they can achieve. An enemy who kills children on purpose.

We have no hope of winning unless we are willing to do what it takes. And too many people are too unwilling to recognize what it takes, much less do it.

 

[1549]

I totally disagree. Our problem is that we are not brutal enough. We are dealing with an enemy who despises weakness, and nothing less than total domination is seen as just that. Retreat. Weakness. That's what causes them to have contempt for us.

We are trying to fight an enemy who knows no reason. And enemy who considers death in defense of Islam to be the highest honor they can achieve. An enemy who kills children on purpose.

We have no hope of winning unless we are willing to do what it takes. And too many people are too unwilling to recognize what it takes, much less do it.

Our enemy is not a robot, it is a human. It has all of the same emotional succeptabilities as you and I. It would be easier, more efficient, and far less bloody to eliminate the root causes of terrorism, rather than engaging in endless wars in each middle eastern nation.

 

[Stephanie]

Our enemy is not a robot, it is a human. It has all of the same emotional susceptibilities as you and I. It would be easier, more efficient, and far less bloody to eliminate the root causes of terrorism, rather than engaging in endless wars in each middle eastern nation.

It's not our responsibility to change them....
That's something the muslim people have to do for themselves..

And if and until they do, we don't have very many choice's...
I'm damn sure not going to sit here, and just let another 9/11 happen, until they decide to get their act together...

 

[1549]

It's not our responsibility to change them....
That's something the muslim people have to do for themselves..

And if and until they do, we don't have very many choice's...
I'm damn sure not going to sit here, and just let another 9/11 happen, until they decide to get their act together...

If we do not change the flaws in the middle east, attacks on American soil will happen again. Our current missions do nothing but aggravate the critical problems.

 

[nt250]

If we do not change the flaws in the middle east, attacks on American soil will happen again. Our current missions do nothing but aggravate the critical problems.

The "flaws" in the Middle East?

The only "flaw" in the Mid East is Israel.

The "critical problems" are the presense of American troops on holy Muslim soil.

Did I miss anything? Any other "root cause" you'd like to bring up that justifies killing kids?

 

[-Cp]

The classic "they cut heads off" response. We are the United States of America, champions of the free world, we should hold ourselves to the highest standards.

All the standards in the world won't do JACK SQUAT for you if your country and all you hold dear has been taken over and killed by the Jihad...

If it means we stay around - water-board the bastards all ya want... I mean GOOD LORD - how can you compare Water-boarding an enemy comatant in order to SAVE LIVES to that of how they attack innocent civillians..?

Only in the mind of a moronic lib can you draw a moral equivilence.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

All the standards in the world won't do JACK SQUAT for you if your country and all you hold dear has been taken over and killed by the Jihad...

If it means we stay around - water-board the bastards all ya want... I mean GOOD LORD - how can you compare Water-boarding an enemy comatant in order to SAVE LIVES to that of how they attack innocent civillians..?

Only in the mind of a moronic lib can you draw a moral equivilence.

So there are no moral imperatives? Does the end justify the means? I am by no means for gong easy on these bastards, but I stop short of torture. Yes, water-boarding is torture.

 

[glockmail]

Thanks...Nice to be on a board that has both Republican and Democrats. ..... Best way to get something done is through comprimise. .....

Compromise? Who said anything about compromise?

 

[glockmail]

.... Our problem is that we are not brutal enough. We are dealing with an enemy who despises weakness, and nothing less than total domination is seen as just that. Retreat. Weakness. That's what causes them to have contempt for us......

You hit the nail on the head, square.

 

[Rico]

The classic "they cut heads off" response. We are the United States of America, champions of the free world, we should hold ourselves to the highest standards.

Some see these tactics as a way of winning the war on terror. Perhaps one of the torture sessions will yield information about a cave packed with terrorists. Maybe we will go there and kill them. It still does not matter. The nature of our conflict in Iraq creates just as many terrorists as we can kill. The idiocy of a war on terror is that you are worsening the conditions that breed terrorists.

The more brutal our tactics, the more resentment we create in Iraq. Not just among hardliners, but among regular everyday people who want to see their compatriots treated in a fair and just manner. Take that away, and we alienate Iraqis, anger them, and create extremist views.

Or, perhaps, one of the interrogations yields information that would stop an attack that would kill you, 1549 and your family. Not just the "anyone" but you personally. Sure it would be great if we could take the high ground. However these are terrorists not members of a nation-state army which are prisoners of war. these people are animals and should be treated as such.

As for your Iraq comment on making more terrorist...bullshit!! The Iraqi's are in the midst of a civil war. The sunni's cannot fight a conventional fight so they resort to terror tactics. Our fight in Iraq, if it is bringing in terrorists great, let them be killed there. As for making new terrorists I would argue that the madras' are doing that everyday not the United States.

 

[CharlestonChad]

All the standards in the world won't do JACK SQUAT for you if your country and all you hold dear has been taken over and killed by the Jihad...

If it means we stay around - water-board the bastards all ya want... I mean GOOD LORD - how can you compare Water-boarding an enemy comatant in order to SAVE LIVES to that of how they attack innocent civillians..?

Only in the mind of a moronic lib can you draw a moral equivilence.

Hasn't it already been proven that info gathered during torture usually isn't reliable?

 

[glockmail]

Hasn't it already been proven that info gathered during torture usually isn't reliable?

That's tru, which brings up my point that no one wants to address: what we did to get this information, whatever it was, was not torture.

The only examples that I have heard are basically: Water board, fake executions, sleep deprivation, cold room, Barry Manilow music, threatening with dogs, pile up naked, confining positions, etc. None of these is torture by the literal sense of the word as intended by Geneva, and if it was, half the collge frats would be shut down.

Webster: "the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure"

 

[trobinett]

You judge who won:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22532_Bush_vs._Lauer&only

Well, every since MSM went "Hollywood", it was bound to happen.

Round one to the Prez.................:clap1:

 

[CharlestonChad]

That's tru, which brings up my point that no one wants to address: what we did to get this information, whatever it was, was not torture.

The only examples that I have heard are basically: Water board, fake executions, sleep deprivation, cold room, Barry Manilow music, threatening with dogs, pile up naked, confining positions, etc. None of these is torture by the literal sense of the word as intended by Geneva, and if it was, half the collge frats would be shut down.

Webster: "the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure"

Exactly! I don't have a problem w/ any of the tactics we know about, but I do not believe we should be literally torturing prisoner.

 

[Bonnie]

So there are no moral imperatives? Does the end justify the means? I am by no means for gong easy on these bastards, but I stop short of torture. Yes, water-boarding is torture.

Yes when the outcome is saving many innocent human lives then the ends justify the means. The whole point of interrogation is not necessarily to use torture but to put the fear in someone that somewhere down the line punishment may be coming, that in and of itself is a great psychological incentive to talk.

 

[Bonnie]

Exactly! I don't have a problem w/ any of the tactics we know about, but I do not believe we should be literally torturing prisoner.

Well herin lies the problem, what constitutes torture? To me sleep deprivation is torture but I have no problem with it being used to yield results. We have a few on Capitol Hill.. now specifically MCCain who is parsing his own words from a document he himself authored while our enemy once again is laughing at us and planning the next big spectacular kill.