Zone1 Pontius Pilate: An Enigmatic Figure

[ding]

the meaning of those events, you live in darkness.

they repudiated judaism: false commandments claimed by the liar moses, hereditary idolatry, religion of apartheid, heavenly personifications that never occurred et al - - used to persecute and victimize the innocent.

as those who wrote the the 4th century christian bible were themselves the crucifiers - continuing their handiwork. bing.

as is the crucifixion.

 

[BreezeWood]

I already explained it.

He fulfilled the law

they repudiated judaism: false commandments claimed by the liar moses, hereditary idolatry, religion of apartheid, heavenly personifications that never occurred et al - - used to persecute and victimize the innocent.

provide the tablets claimed by the liar moses etched w/ commandments their claim from the heavens never witnessed by anyone than who destroyed them moses - included in all three desert religion bibles.

- do you or do you not repudiate the false (commandments) of judaism claimed from the heavens used by the desert religions to persecute and victimize the innocent.

 

[Zebra]

Jesus was caught red-handed with a naked boy in a public park in the middle of the night. The public was outraged. He was the worst kind of criminal.

That armed robbery he pulled at the Temple didn't bode well for him either.

If you look at it objectively, Jesus was a real scumbag even by today's standards. And by the standards of his time, which is why he rightfully received the death penalty.

What makes you say so?

 

[alang1216]

How does Ehrman saying, "I think it is fair to say that Jesus did not publicly proclaim himself the King of the Jews" not prove my point? There's no evidence Jesus was trying to become king. So that had to come from the religious authorities because THEY recognized that Jesus was behaving as if he were the messiah so it was their assumption that as the messiah he was going to be a human king in the tradition of David. But that was NEVER what Jesus taught about what the messiah was going to be.

It is possible that Jesus, and/or his followers, believed God would make him a king in the coming end times. That is what Judas may have told the authorities.

About all that does is prove my point that Jesus was worshipped as God immediately after he rose from the dead. Because it does nothing to address my point that if Jesus had behaved like he intended to be a king in the tradition of David then it would have been documented and used against the first Christians who were Jewish. They wouldn't have needed to persecute them. Instead they would have said Jesus wasn't divine. He was trying to become our king. See all this evidence we have of that? But there was no evidence so it couldn't be documented because THEY NEVER MADE THAT ARGUMENT.

He would be king AFTER the apocalypse.

 

[SweetSue92]

Pilate wanted peace in his province and likely worked closely with the Sadducees. They probably did favors for each other but I doubt Pilate cared one bit about Jewish theology. He would have been happy to put Jesus to death if there was a claim that Jesus believed he was a king since that would be an affront to Caesar.

Sure. He's far from blameless, but I think the least blameless in the historical lot. Even at the end, when he caves, he says "I wash my hands of this".

 

[SweetSue92]

My thoughts...

Jesus knew (how could he not?) the religious leaders would make the claim that he was a political threat and that was why he would sometimes give the instruction to not to tell anyone what he had done. He would do this in Jewish territory where the risk of religious leaders finding out was greater. At other times he would give the instruction to tell others what he had done. He would do this in Gentile territory where the risk of religious leaders finding out was less. He did this to allow for time to complete his mission. It wasn't that he didn't want it to be known. It was more about the timing of when it was to be known.

alang1216 in my study of "who God is" it was things like this that provided corroboration. God is in the details.

Sure, agree with all of this, and a good point about who Jesus advised to tell before "His time had come".

To reiterate from a Christian standpoint I am just as much responsible for Jesus' death as the scribes, priests and Pilate. But again in historical perspective, Pilate seems wishy-washy and uncertain rather than pernicious.

 

[Meriweather]

He would be king AFTER the apocalypse.

Except....Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.

 

[alang1216]

Except....Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.

Not 'except', I think we are saying the same thing, just using different language.

 

[SweetSue92]

Sue, have you ever read the Acts of Pilot? Nicodemus was chosen to keep the minutes of every aspect of the conversations and had to deliver a copy to the Temple and to Pilot.
Pilot was not happy when Jesus came back...

No. Interesting! Will look it up

 

[SweetSue92]

1. Only Pilate could condemn Jesus to crucifixion, and only then for plans/attempts to overthrow the Roman government. Temple hierarchy of the day wanted him to be put to death for what they considered heresy/blasphemy.

2. One theory I read about years ago is that of Jesus Barabbas. Not only can 'Barabbas' mean so of the father, it also could mean the son of the master. Was it possible that this Barabbas was the son of a high Jewish Temple official (his master), and rather than this connection made known/public, Pilate was convinced that the wrong Jesus Barabbas was in prison. Some point out that there was no known tradition that of Pilate's to release a prisoner on Passover. However, could Pilate had been convinced the wrong man was in prison, so he threw up his hands and said, who is it you want released--and they insisted they wanted the other Jesus Barabbas who was in prison released, and the one then in front of Pilate, crucified.

3. Could it have been possible that when Pilate asked whom they wanted freed and the crowd shouted, "Jesus Barabbas" they were (without being asked) calling for Jesus' release? But as there was no such custom to release a prisoner, the crowd was ignored and Jesus was put to death despite the crowd calling for his release?

Barabbas is certainly an interesting avatar spiritually: he was chosen to go free; the innocent Man was sentenced to death.

 

[norwegen]

Pilate didn't want to condemn Jesus, but the Jews forced his hand. It suggests that the Jews had some political clout in Judea.

Rome generally was supportive of the Jews and their culture until the Jews grew too insolent for peaceful coexistence, but that was after Jesus.

Beforehand, the Romans cared not a whit what the Jews did, and certainly not their internecine squabbles.

And Pilate didn't seem to want to get involved with this squabble they had with one of their own called Jesus.

I agree. I don't think he was the bad guy.

 

[BreezeWood]

I agree. I don't think he was the bad guy.

- a witness to a crime to chose expediency, the cowardly prefect than as a historic opportunity to right an autocratic religious despotism their indignant decision made as those events in no way hindered the roman empire.

 

[ding]

provide the tablets claimed by the liar moses etched w/ commandments their claim from the heavens never witnessed by anyone than who destroyed them moses - included in all three desert religion bibles.

- do you or do you not repudiate the false (commandments) of judaism claimed from the heavens used by the desert religions to persecute and victimize the innocent.

Why? Jesus taught that it isn't about rule keeping. That true righteousness is about a transformed heart, love for God, and love for neighbors, rather than merely keeping external rules. He fulfilled the law by focusing on intent over action—teaching that inner attitudes like hatred or lust are as sinful as actions, while emphasizing mercy over rigid legalism. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus declared that inner thoughts (hatred, lust) are equivalent to acts (murder, adultery) in God's eyes. He pushed beyond mere conformity to a list of rules to demand true righteousness. Jesus defied religious leaders by healing on the Sabbath and allowing his disciples to pick grain on the Sabbath, declaring that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Jesus summarized all laws as loving God wholeheartedly and loving one's neighbor as oneself. He argued that following these two principles is the essence of true obedience. He frequently broke with the traditions of the Pharisees, such as ceremonial hand-washing, arguing that what truly defiles a person comes from the heart, not from unwashed hands. Jesus taught that followers should keep his commands out of love for him, rather than keeping rules to gain merit or out of a sense of legal obligation.

 

[ding]

It is possible that Jesus, and/or his followers, believed God would make him a king in the coming end times. That is what Judas may have told the authorities.

But it is most likely that the religious leaders connected the dot that Jesus is the messiah and so must intend to become the king of the Jews because that was their understanding of the messiah's job description. Jesus never intended to be a king in the tradition of David. Jesus taught that messiah was to be a suffering servant.

He would be king AFTER the apocalypse.

So what? This is more of your circular logic based on the faith of your atheism because it certainly isn't supported by the texts.

 

[ding]

Not 'except', I think we are saying the same thing, just using different language.

But you aren't saying the same thing. You missed the nuance of the passage. Jesus is saying he isn't the king of the Jews as they knew it to be. Pilot first asks the question "are you the king of the Jews. After not getting the answer he was expecting but in response to what Jesus said about his kingdom, Pilot changes the question to "then you are a king?"

There is nothing in the gospels to suggest that Jesus intended to be a king in the tradition of David. The gospels make a concerted effort to show that Jesus taught that the messiah would be a suffering servant as foretold in Isaiah 53:1-12. You are tilting at windmills.

The Trial before Pilate.

Then they brought Jesus from Caiaphas to the praetorium. It was morning. And they themselves did not enter the praetorium, in order not to be defiled so that they could eat the Passover. So Pilate came out to them and said, “What charge do you bring [against] this man?” They answered and said to him, “If he were not a criminal, we would not have handed him over to you.” At this, Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews answered him, “We do not have the right to execute anyone,” in order that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled that he said indicating the kind of death he would die. So Pilate went back into the praetorium and summoned Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus answered, “Do you say this on your own or have others told you about me?” Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests handed you over to me. What have you done?” Jesus answered, “My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants [would] be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.” So Pilate said to him, “Then you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say I am a king. For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”

 

[ding]

Jesus acknowledged being a king, but redefined this role as a spiritual, non-political, and heavenly sovereignty rather than a conventional earthly monarchy. While avoiding the typical Davidic messianic title of a political, military leader, he accepted the title of King before Pilate and affirmed a role greater than David.

• Affirmation before Pilate: When asked if He was the "King of the Jews," Jesus replied, "You say that I am a king" (Matthew 27:11), and later declared, "My kingdom is not of this world".
• Reinterpreting the Davidic Throne: Jesus challenged the understanding of the Messiah merely as a human descendant of David. By quoting Psalm 110, He noted that David called the Messiah "Lord," indicating a higher authority.
• The "Greater" King: Jesus parallelled David's life—acting as a rightful king fleeing from hostile leadership—but claimed to be a greater King, fulfilling the Messianic role as the son of David (Matt. 1:1, Rev. 22:16).
• Demonstrating Kingship: Jesus displayed kingly authority in acts like entering Jerusalem on a donkey, fulfilling Zechariah’s prophecy of a king (Zech. 9:9).

His admission of kingship was therefore a "yes" to being the anointed Messiah, but a "no" to being a political conqueror.

 

[alang1216]

But it is most likely that the religious leaders connected the dot that Jesus is the messiah and so must intend to become the king of the Jews because that was their understanding of the messiah's job description. Jesus never intended to be a king in the tradition of David. Jesus taught that messiah was to be a suffering servant.

So the Jews that were waiting a thousand years for God to send their messiah, decided to have the Romans kill him when he arrived? Doesn't seem likely to me.

So what? This is more of your circular logic based on the faith of your atheism because it certainly isn't supported by the texts.

Actually it is: Would Jesus be king AFTER the apocalypse?

Yes, according to Christian theology and biblical prophecy, Jesus Christ is understood to be the King who reigns after the apocalypse (the Second Coming/End Times). His reign is described in two phases: first, a thousand-year reign on Earth known as the Millennium, followed by a transition into an eternal kingdom.

Key Aspects of Christ's Post-Apocalypse Kingship:

• Location and Scope: Jerusalem is frequently cited as the center of his reign, extending over all nations, with followers reigning alongside him.
• The Millennium (Years): After the tribulation, Jesus will rule as King on earth for years, bringing peace and justice. During this time, Satan will be bound.
• Visible Kingship: Unlike his current spiritual reign, the post-apocalyptic rule will be visible, with every eye seeing him as "King of kings and Lord of lords".
• Eternal Kingdom: Following the thousand years, his reign continues into a new heaven and new earth, where he rules forever.
  
  This reign is considered the culmination of his victory over death and sin, establishing God's restored order on earth.

 

[alang1216]

But you aren't saying the same thing. You missed the nuance of the passage. Jesus is saying he isn't the king of the Jews as they knew it to be. Pilot first asks the question "are you the king of the Jews. After not getting the answer he was expecting but in response to what Jesus said about his kingdom, Pilot changes the question to "then you are a king?"

There is nothing in the gospels to suggest that Jesus intended to be a king in the tradition of David. The gospels make a concerted effort to show that Jesus taught that the messiah would be a suffering servant as foretold in Isaiah 53:1-12. You are tilting at windmills.

The Trial before Pilate.

Then they brought Jesus from Caiaphas to the praetorium. It was morning. And they themselves did not enter the praetorium, in order not to be defiled so that they could eat the Passover. So Pilate came out to them and said, “What charge do you bring [against] this man?” They answered and said to him, “If he were not a criminal, we would not have handed him over to you.” At this, Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law.” The Jews answered him, “We do not have the right to execute anyone,” in order that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled that he said indicating the kind of death he would die. So Pilate went back into the praetorium and summoned Jesus and said to him, “Are you the King of the Jews?” Jesus answered, “Do you say this on your own or have others told you about me?” Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests handed you over to me. What have you done?” Jesus answered, “My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants [would] be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.” So Pilate said to him, “Then you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say I am a king. For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”

No, I didn't miss it, I got it just fine, thank you.

 

[ding]

So the Jews that were waiting a thousand years for God to send their messiah, decided to have the Romans kill him when he arrived? Doesn't seem likely to me.

They misunderstood the job description. It's one of the things that Jesus corrected along with it's not about rule keeping. It's about relationships. If one's relationship with God is good all other relationships will be good. Rules won't even be necessary.

Actually it is: Would Jesus be king AFTER the apocalypse?

Yes, according to Christian theology and biblical prophecy, Jesus Christ is understood to be the King who reigns after the apocalypse (the Second Coming/End Times). His reign is described in two phases: first, a thousand-year reign on Earth known as the Millennium, followed by a transition into an eternal kingdom.

Key Aspects of Christ's Post-Apocalypse Kingship:

• Location and Scope: Jerusalem is frequently cited as the center of his reign, extending over all nations, with followers reigning alongside him.
• The Millennium (Years): After the tribulation, Jesus will rule as King on earth for years, bringing peace and justice. During this time, Satan will be bound.
• Visible Kingship: Unlike his current spiritual reign, the post-apocalyptic rule will be visible, with every eye seeing him as "King of kings and Lord of lords".
• Eternal Kingdom: Following the thousand years, his reign continues into a new heaven and new earth, where he rules forever.
  
  This reign is considered the culmination of his victory over death and sin, establishing God's restored order on earth.

Again... Jesus acknowledged being a king, but redefined this role as a spiritual, non-political, and heavenly sovereignty rather than a conventional earthly monarchy. While avoiding the typical Davidic messianic title of a political, military leader, he accepted the title of King before Pilate and affirmed a role greater than David.

 

[ding]

No, I didn't miss it, I got it just fine, thank you.

I disagree. You are blind to it all.