Zone1 Poll: Although the Tuskegee Airmen Accomplished What They Did BEFORE the Advent of DEI, Do you Consider Them Recipients of DEI?

[M14 Shooter]

While the 332FG performed well in combat, its record was not remarkably better than any number of other FGs.
Its fame among the public stems from the color of the pilots skim, rather than the content of their service; had they been white pilots, no one would have heard of them.
Thus, they benefit from a form of DEI.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

While the 332FG performed well in combat, its record was not remarkably better than any number of other FGs.
Its fame among the public stems from the color of the pilots skim, rather than the content of their service; had they been white pilots, no one would have heard of them.
Thus, they benefit from a form of DEI.

Where are you getting your information?

And in what respect did they benefit from a form of DEI, and do you mean back then during the 1940s or currently?

 

[0311]

Where are you getting your information?

And in what respect did they benefit from a form of DEI, and do you mean back then during the 1940s or currently?

Eleanor Roosevelt championed them. In 1940 U.S. Military decided that African Americans were incapable having complex machinery. When the Tuskegee Airman escorted U.S. Bomber formations over Germany, none of the heavy bombers were shot down. This is about wiping out the heroic and historic work done minorities in WWII. Racism pure and simple.

 

[M14 Shooter]

And in what respect did they benefit from a form of DEI, and do you mean back then during the 1940s or currently?

Their present-day popularity and exposure.
Had they been a white FG, no one would have any idea who they are.

 

[M14 Shooter]

When the Tuskegee Airman escorted U.S. Bomber formations over Germany, none of the heavy bombers were shot down.

They lost 27 bombers under their escort.
This is lower than the average FG, but does not take into account the number of bombers escorted and the number of missions flown.

 

[westwall]

They lost 27 bombers under their escort.
This is lower than the average FG, but does not take into account the number of bombers escorted and the number of missions flown.

Or the lessened quality of the German pilots they were flying against who were suffering severe fuel shortages so weren't able to get in the practice that allied pilots did.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Or the lessened quality of the German pilots they were flying against who were suffering severe fuel shortages so weren't able to get in the practice that allied pilots did.

Or any number of other factors.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

Their present-day popularity and exposure.
Had they been a white FG, no one would have any idea who they are.

Plus, the enemy of DEI in the context of the Tuskegee flyers is America, not nazi germany.

 

[Stryder50]

Wrong, if you read the article it mentions some all black units, there were always army integrated units (at least all the NCO and Officer slots were filled by whites) and prior to Wilson the navy was always fully integrated,

Until after WWII, the US military had always been segregated.
Units composed of Blacks (and often other minority races and ethnics) nearly always had White officers and NCOs in charge. Rarely any Black officers or NCOs. Not such were predominately composed of Blacks.

One did not find Blacks integrated with Whites, and others, on a fairly equal basis nor did you see non-White officers and NCOs commanding Whites. Not until after WWII did you see non-Whites in any positions in the Navy other than as cooks, mess crew, or low level 'cleaning jobs, etc.

I agree there was slightly more integration prior to Wilson as POTUS, but appears to be an exception rather than a log established rule.

 

[Stryder50]

Eleanor Roosevelt championed them. In 1940 U.S. Military decided that African Americans were incapable having complex machinery. When the Tuskegee Airman escorted U.S. Bomber formations over Germany, none of the heavy bombers were shot down. This is about wiping out the heroic and historic work done minorities in WWII. Racism pure and simple.

That's a long lived perpetual error (lie).
First of all, fighter escorts don't deflect AAA/Flak which was a major killer of bombers.
Second, records show that some German fighters did get through to shoot down the bombers.

 

[initforme]

They were perfect american patriots.

 

[Stryder50]

Why do you think they fought a battle in court in order to be "included (the I in DEI) in the Allied war effort?

Please document that "battle in court".
I've researched the Tuskegee Airman topic and haven't found any reference to a "battle in court" where the court ordered them to be allowed to train as pilots.
There was a lot of pushback from some of the military establishment, but FDR said it would happen so it did.
Could say his wife Eleanor pestered him into it.

 

[Stryder50]

Institutional is culture. Legal is law. The legal version is mostly gone but the impactful cultural version is alive and thriving. Thank a democrat.

You will find that cultural version all across this planet. Most often it is non-whites verses whites, BUT even more often non-whites against other non-whites.
Look at Chinese versus Japanese versus Korean, versus South-East Asians for an example. Or various tribes in Africa.

 

[Stryder50]

Indeed. Women had the same problems too.

The WASPS went a long way to addressing that. However they were still not allowed to fly combat till Iraq.

The WASPs weren't members of the military either.
They were a civilian organization and hence got no GI Bill or other benefits for service.
They did earn their wings and get in some flying hours that would further their future as aviators and in some cases eventual employment. Plus "blazed the trail" for future female aviators.

Home

cafwaspsquadron.org

Guiding Principles

cafwaspsquadron.org

....
The Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP) (also Women's Army Service Pilots<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a> or Women's Auxiliary Service Pilots<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a>) was a civilian women pilots' organization, whose members were United States federal civil service employees. Members of WASP became trained pilots who tested aircraft, ferried aircraft and trained other pilots. Their purpose was to free male pilots for combat roles during World War II. Despite various members of the armed forces being involved in the creation of the program, the WASP and its members had no military standing.

WASP was preceded by the Women's Flying Training Detachment (WFTD) and the Women's Auxiliary Ferrying Squadron (WAFS). Both were organized separately in September 1942. They were pioneering organizations of civilian women pilots, who were attached to the United States Army Air Forces to fly military aircraft during World War II. On August 5, 1943, the WFTD and WAFS merged to create the WASP organization.<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>4<span>]</span></a><span title="Page / location: 45, 49–50, 173">: 45, 49–50, 173 </span>

The WASP arrangement with the US Army Air Forces ended on December 20, 1944. During its period of operation, each member's service had freed a male pilot for military combat or other duties. They flew over 60 million miles; transported every type of military aircraft; towed targets for live anti-aircraft gun practice; simulated strafing missions and transported cargo. Thirty-eight WASP members died during these duties and one, Gertrude Tompkins, disappeared while on a ferry mission, her fate still unknown.<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>5<span>]</span></a> In 1977, for their World War II service, the members were granted veteran status,<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a> and in 2009 awarded the Congressional Gold Medal.<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>7<span>]</span></a><a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>8<span>]</span></a>
...

Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[westwall]

The WASPs weren't members of the military either.
They were a civilian organization and hence got no GI Bill or other benefits for service.
They did earn their wings and get in some flying hours that would further their future as aviators and in some cases eventual employment. Plus "blazed the trail" for future female aviators.

Home

cafwaspsquadron.org

Guiding Principles

cafwaspsquadron.org

....
The Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP) (also Women's Army Service Pilots<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a> or Women's Auxiliary Service Pilots<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a>) was a civilian women pilots' organization, whose members were United States federal civil service employees. Members of WASP became trained pilots who tested aircraft, ferried aircraft and trained other pilots. Their purpose was to free male pilots for combat roles during World War II. Despite various members of the armed forces being involved in the creation of the program, the WASP and its members had no military standing.

WASP was preceded by the Women's Flying Training Detachment (WFTD) and the Women's Auxiliary Ferrying Squadron (WAFS). Both were organized separately in September 1942. They were pioneering organizations of civilian women pilots, who were attached to the United States Army Air Forces to fly military aircraft during World War II. On August 5, 1943, the WFTD and WAFS merged to create the WASP organization.<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>4<span>]</span></a><span title="Page / location: 45, 49–50, 173">: 45, 49–50, 173 </span>

The WASP arrangement with the US Army Air Forces ended on December 20, 1944. During its period of operation, each member's service had freed a male pilot for military combat or other duties. They flew over 60 million miles; transported every type of military aircraft; towed targets for live anti-aircraft gun practice; simulated strafing missions and transported cargo. Thirty-eight WASP members died during these duties and one, Gertrude Tompkins, disappeared while on a ferry mission, her fate still unknown.<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>5<span>]</span></a> In 1977, for their World War II service, the members were granted veteran status,<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a> and in 2009 awarded the Congressional Gold Medal.<a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>7<span>]</span></a><a href="Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia"><span>[</span>8<span>]</span></a>
...

Women Airforce Service Pilots - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yup, they weren't even recognized for their service till the 2000's!

 

[AZrailwhale]

That's a long lived perpetual error (lie).
First of all, fighter escorts don't deflect AAA/Flak which was a major killer of bombers.
Second, records show that some German fighters did get through to shoot down the bombers.

The difference was that the white fighter pilots lacked the discipline to stay with the bombers and tended to hare off chasing retreating fighter to score kills.

 

[Stryder50]

The CAF Red Tail Squadron is committed to telling the inspirational story of the Tuskegee Airmen, America’s first black military pilots and their support personnel.​

They are on a mission to educate people of all ages about these important American icons so their strength of character and ability to triumph over adversity may serve as a means to inspire others to rise above obstacles in their own lives and achieve their goals.​

....






The Tuskegee Airmen were a group of African-American and Caribbean-born military pilots (fighter and bomber) who fought in World War II. They formed the 332nd Fighter Group and the 477th Bombardment Group of the United States Army Air Forces. The name also applies to the navigators, bombardiers, mechanics, instructors, crew chiefs, nurses, cooks and other support personnel.

All black military pilots who trained in the United States trained at Griel Field, Kennedy Field, Moton Field, Shorter Field and the Tuskegee Army Air Fields. They were educated at Tuskegee University (formerly Tuskegee Institute), located near Tuskegee, Alabama. The group included five Haitians from the Haitian Air Force, and one pilot from Trinidad. It also included a Hispanic or Latino airman born in the Dominican Republic.

They are best known for the extraordinary efforts in the air war of World War II, and for challenging the stereotypes that had kept black Americans from serving as pilots in the U.S. Armed Forces.

Here you will find in-depth, historically accurate information about the Tuskegee Airmen. Expand your knowledge and be inspired!

The Tuskegee Airmen | CAF RISE ABOVE

The Tuskegee Airmen were a group of African-American and Caribbean-born military pilots (fighter and bomber) who fought in World War II. They formed the 332nd Fighter Group and the 477th Bombardment Group of the United States Army Air Forces. The name also applies to the navigators, bombardiers...

cafriseabove.org

Rise Above: Red Tail | CAF RISE ABOVE

The CAF Red Tail Squadron is committed to telling the inspirational story of the Tuskegee Airmen, America’s first black military pilots and their support personnel. They are on a mission to educate people of all ages about these important American icons so their strength of character and ability...

cafriseabove.org

CAF RISE ABOVE​

Inspiring young people to RISE ABOVE adversity using
the lessons and stories of the Tuskegee Airmen and the WASP

Home | CAF RISE ABOVE

RISE ABOVE is the CAF three-fold educational outreach program that brings the history and legacy of the Tuskegee Airmen and Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP) to life in communities and classrooms everywhere.

cafriseabove.org

Six Guiding Principles for the Tuskegee Airmen | CAF RISE ABOVE

Based on the history and life lessons of the Tuskegee Airmen of World War II. Aim High The pilots and support personnel who became known as the Tuskegee Airmen shared a common goal –to serve our country during World War II. What made them different from other service members with the same...

cafriseabove.org

 

[Stryder50]

The difference was that the white fighter pilots lacked the discipline to stay with the bombers and tended to hare off chasing retreating fighter to score kills.

Not always.
More often than not their commanders kept discipline in their units and held them to their task.
The 332FG did take the close escort mission very seriously though, better than some other FGs. You are right on that.

 

[westwall]

The difference was that the white fighter pilots lacked the discipline to stay with the bombers and tended to hare off chasing retreating fighter to score kills.

That's horseshit.

 

[westwall]

Not always.
More often than not their commanders kept discipline in their units and held them to their task.
The 332FG did take the close escort mission very seriously though, better than some other FGs. You are right on that.

Their commander had one philosophy about escorting, and Zemke and others had different opinions.

The constant problem with close escort is when the enemy fighters hit you, they are at full speed, usually in a dive, and you're not.

That means the attacking fighters have all of the advantages of speed, energy, and initiative.

Zemke developed the Zemke Fan to patrol ahead of the bomber stream and attack the enemy fighters as they were forming up for their mass wave attacks.

Gunther Rall was a friend and he told me that Zemkes tactics were very effective.