Patriot Act up for renewal and no one notices

[Sail Away]

It's not a black and white situation. It is a slow erosion. Each bit of erosion allows the path for more extensive erosion. The questions you should be asking are: Are my constitutional rights being maintained in the spirit of that in which were given? Do I believe the in the future, the current degree of these constitutional rights will be the same? The government and laws thrive in gray-areas. Once case-law is established it is no longer gray-area. It is a situation that congress mass produces gray-area and courts decide if it is black or white. Therein is where the erosion lies.

 

[uscitizen]

I do not recall hearing many complaints from the right when this was passed.
I do recall being called unamerican and such for opposing the patriot act and such.

But as many seem to still think fearmongering does not hurt America.

 

[Charles_Main]

Patriot Act up for renewal and no one notices - National Independent | Examiner.com

On January 5th, Rep. Mike Rogers (R-MI) introduced a bill to add yet another year to the soon to be expiring Patriot Act. This would extend it until February of 2012, and passage is likely to happen with little debate or contention. If passed, this would be the second time the Obama administration has punted on campaign promises to roll back excessive surveillance measures allowed under the act passed in the wake of 9/11.

Both parties continuing to show that at the end of the day they aren't that much different.

Of course nobody notices. There is no longer a Republican in the white house. So the Press no longer has any interest in demonizing it.

 

[uscitizen]

Patriot Act up for renewal and no one notices - National Independent | Examiner.com

On January 5th, Rep. Mike Rogers (R-MI) introduced a bill to add yet another year to the soon to be expiring Patriot Act. This would extend it until February of 2012, and passage is likely to happen with little debate or contention. If passed, this would be the second time the Obama administration has punted on campaign promises to roll back excessive surveillance measures allowed under the act passed in the wake of 9/11.

Both parties continuing to show that at the end of the day they aren't that much different.

Of course nobody notices. There is no longer a Republican in the white house. So the Press no longer has any interest in demonizing it.

I did not notice much of the press demonizing it when a republican was president.

And as I have been saying this is a thrid Bush term.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

But would Ben say that if he were here now after the threats and attacks we've endured? I wonder. He could have never imagine our country now.

He lived during the Revolutionary War.

I think he understands the cost.

Basically I think he's saying it's better to live free with danger than be a serf to the state.

We are in danger of nuclear attacks. That is different from the guns and swords.

Dead is dead. Nuclear holocaust or the plague, makes no difference. Just because the tech was less developed it does not mean the threats were less real.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And stuff like this is the reason we shouldn't crucify each other over stupid shit. Because then who ever is in office gets away with stuff like this while everyone's distracted and no one's paying attention.

I wonder if Hamilton and Madison thought their feud about the role of the federal government was petty. I wonder if Jefferson and Madison thought their feud about the Treasury, federal poser, and the debt from the Revolutionary War was petty. I wonder if Adams and Jefferson thought there ongoing battle over the powers of the executive branch were petty.

Actually, I don't wonder about any of that, what I wonder about is the dismal state of education in this country that people are so ignorant about history. That they do not understand that arguing is what politics all about, and that if people did not care about the issues involved they would not be in politics in the first place.

Why do people think that we would be better off if people did not care?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I do not recall hearing many complaints from the right when this was passed.
I do recall being called unamerican and such for opposing the patriot act and such.

But as many seem to still think fearmongering does not hurt America.

You did not here them because the music you are listening to is turned up too loud.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

He lived during the Revolutionary War.

I think he understands the cost.

Basically I think he's saying it's better to live free with danger than be a serf to the state.

We are in danger of nuclear attacks. That is different from the guns and swords.

Dead is dead. Nuclear holocaust or the plague, makes no difference. Just because the tech was less developed it does not mean the threats were less real.

Nuclear weapons are just a more "advanced" way to die. Dying by a gun leads to the same result in the end.

And listening in on your private conversations, and recording them is an infringement of the 4th amendment.

So let me ask you guys this: isn't this the whole point of terrorism? It's in the term-they want to spread terror. These false senses of security prey on people's fears. We now have less and less civil rights, all in the name of ironically fighting terrorism. The more freedoms we give up-the more we feed into what the terrorists want us to. They hate freedom, and every time we give up a little of ours they win a little bit.

"Fear is the foundation of most governments; but it is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to approve of any political institution which is founded on it. "-John Adams

 

[Charles_Main]

Patriot Act up for renewal and no one notices - National Independent | Examiner.com



Both parties continuing to show that at the end of the day they aren't that much different.

Of course nobody notices. There is no longer a Republican in the white house. So the Press no longer has any interest in demonizing it.

I did not notice much of the press demonizing it when a republican was president.

And as I have been saying this is a thrid Bush term.

Then apparently you either had no pulse for 7 years, or you watched no Liberal News.

 

[uscitizen]

Of course nobody notices. There is no longer a Republican in the white house. So the Press no longer has any interest in demonizing it.

I did not notice much of the press demonizing it when a republican was president.

And as I have been saying this is a thrid Bush term.

Then apparently you either had no pulse for 7 years, or you watched no Liberal News.

I watch no MSM news and listen to no talk radio.
Most of the dems in congress supported the patriot act.
As did most of the republicans.
And apparently Bush and Obama as well.

I never did.
And still do not.

 

[Londoner]

The Patriot Act over-concentrates power in the executive, who now has vastly expanded discretion over law enforcement, the intelligence agencies, and the largest most secret bureaucracy in American history: the Department of Homeland Security.

Aside from increased surveillance, data tracking, and erosion of privacy & civil liberties, the most disconcerting element is the erasure of the line between political enemy and enemy combatant. It is now easier for Big Government to watch and imprison politically disruptive citizens. Welcome to the old Soviet Union where external and internal threats were used strategically by the KGB to place political enemies under a surveillance net.

The Bush fed used the Patriot Act to track the finances of one of their biggest enemies, Eliot Spitzer. Spitzer was highly critical of Bush's role in the housing mess, and he was the only person trying to prevent AIG from looting trillions in the derivatives market. Spitzer was in the process of visiting justice upon AIG president Hank Greenberg, who also happened to be a huge Bush ally. When Spitzer moved over 10K, the Bush Fed had him dead to rights. Consequently, AIG escaped from Spitzer's clutches, and their derivative crime goes unpunished. [Sadly, the Right does not know how much tax payer money AIG looted in the derivatives market]

The Patriot Act simply bestows more power on Big Government. In a perfect world, Big Government would use that power to protect us. But, Libertarians teach us, we don't live in a perfect world; rather, we live in a world where fallible humans always abuse concentrated power. The Libertarians teach us that government does not have the power to turn the middle east into a Democratic Utopia, or rid the world of evil, or keep every American 100% safe. Libertarians teach us to be realistic and pragmatic about the powers of big government, specifically if you give Government more power to protect you, you will not only be wasting money, but Government will abuse the power. Why? Because concentrated power is dangerous by definition. Why? Because government bureaucrats are fallible, i.e., we don't want them to have highly concentrated power. (Government always uses national security to increase its power; and the Right always falls for it BECAUSE they trust big government immensely)

Everyone knew that the Reagan Movement, reaching its apex under Bush, would result in a larger, more secretive government.

Bush's crown jewel, the Department of Homeland security, is now America's largest bureaucracy. It is a mess.
A hidden world, growing beyond control | washingtonpost.com

Bush used Patriot Act (KGB-style) to take down Spitzer, a political enemy.
The Spitzer Sex Sting: A Few More Questions?By Scott Horton (Harper's Magazine)
Was Eliot Spitzer Taken Out Because He Was Going to Bust AIG? | PEEK | AlterNet
Was Spitzer targeted?
# 25 Bush?s Real Problem with Eliot Spitzer | Project Censored
Spitzer Has Sinned, But It's Our Sex Obsession That's Criminal ? Forward.com

Here is why the Bush fed used the Patriot Act to get Spitzer
Eliot Spitzer - Predatory Lenders' Partner in Crime - washingtonpost.com

Why does the Right have so much trust in government? Why do they keep giving it more and more power?

 

[Mad Scientist]

I see an easy PR victory for Obama when he veto's this evil legislation from the Republicons in the House. That is, if it even gets passed by the Democrat controlled Senate.
Patriot Act Faces Renewal in 2011 ? Left and Right News

Deep within the controversial USA PATRIOT Act, originally passed in 2001, there are many surveillance tactics enacted through sunset provisions, which are parts of laws that have an expiration date unless legislative action extends them. While the sunset provisions of the PATRIOT Act are set to expire on February 28th, 2011, the government will likely extend these provisions. On the third day of the 112th Congress, Representative Mike Rogers (R-MI) introduced House Resolution 67. This bill would extend the sunset provisions of the PATRIOT Act until February 29th, 2012.

Republicons are such dupes, looking to pass shit legislation that they know will be voted down, just like the Health Care repeal last month. This bill doesn't stand a chance because Obama will veto this right?
















Right?

 

[Londoner]

It depends on if you think Obama is more Stalin than Carter.

(I only mean in terms of political courage)

If he's Stalin, than he is going to act swiftly and brutally on behalf of his vision. If he is Carter, than he is likely to bend to the will of his political opponents.

I think he is more Cater than Stalin, and that he will do whatever his opponents want.

On another note. Passing something like The Patriot Act works best when the government is hyping terrorism on a daily basis. People are more likely to sacrifice privacy and civil rights if they feel a direct threat. Using fear to create Big Government Surveillance -- i.e., using fear to create a larger more intrusive government -- works better on Right wing voters because they tend to have higher levels of fear, and thus want more protection from big brother.

Playing the fear card is very hard to do when the Right doesn't have the presidency. During the Bush years, FOX would broadcast color coded warnings on a daily basis. They would overhype everything. Incompetent morons who couldn't tie their shoes were inflated into Hitler. The Terrorists loved it because they knew the Right would give them maximum news exposure -- which is what they wanted. This gave them more power in their homeland.

Terrorists love the American Rightwing because they are stupid enough to get America trapped in Iraqi and Afghan quicksand, like the Russians. The Right, because it uses fear and patriotism to win elections, and because it uses weapons contracts to fund its money loops, is corrupt enough to bankrupt America inside 3rd world mud holes. (Yes, I know: Obama is Bush lite)

The next big thing the Right has in store are biometric ID cards. They want all Americans too be more trackable by GPS. This is the kind of thing powerful governments do when they concentrate power and wealth in fewer hands. If you are going to get rid of the middle class and create an epidemic of poverty (in order to give the wealthy more money), you better beef up law enforcement to deal with the social unrest.

(Yawn. This is not rocket science. Study history)

 

[Mad Scientist]

You blame the Right but the Left is doing all those things you stated in yer posts. We were led to believe that Obama represented "change" yet the only change I see is Obama shifting the policies of George Bush into second or third gear.

Amirite?

 

[The Hatter]

Both parties are for the intrusion of Big Government into civil liberties such as with the Patriot Act. Not the kind of bipartisanship many Americans including myself want to see.

 

[Londoner]

You blame the Right but the Left is doing all those things you stated in yer posts. We were led to believe that Obama represented "change" yet the only change I see is Obama shifting the policies of George Bush into second or third gear.

Amirite?

I agree. Obama is Carter, i.e., too weak to pursue a real liberal agenda; and certainly not courageous enough to oppose Big Pentagon, Big Oil, and Big Finance.

The party that opposed LBJ's Vietnam is dead. After the 60s they gave up on trying to reform Washington, and they disbanded. Whereas the Right federated and got stronger, creating a powerful movement under Reagan.

Once Clinton passed NAFTA and started courting Wall Street and big business, the Left died for good.

Sadly, it was the old Right who would have opposed the Patriot Act more than anyone. They used to be the most distrusting of Government Surveillance. The old Right is dead too. They are now willing to trade security for freedom, and they trust Washington with massive amounts of surveillance power. They created the department of Homeland Security -- one of the largest most bureaucratic most money sucking agencies ever. The Right loves big government.

 

[Woyzeck]

The Patriot Act is a drug for the government. The government should learn to just say no.

 

[Trajan]

I see an easy PR victory for Obama when he veto's this evil legislation from the Republicons in the House. That is, if it even gets passed by the Democrat controlled Senate.
Patriot Act Faces Renewal in 2011 ? Left and Right News

Deep within the controversial USA PATRIOT Act, originally passed in 2001, there are many surveillance tactics enacted through sunset provisions, which are parts of laws that have an expiration date unless legislative action extends them. While the sunset provisions of the PATRIOT Act are set to expire on February 28th, 2011, the government will likely extend these provisions. On the third day of the 112th Congress, Representative Mike Rogers (R-MI) introduced House Resolution 67. This bill would extend the sunset provisions of the PATRIOT Act until February 29th, 2012.

Republicons are such dupes, looking to pass shit legislation that they know will be voted down, just like the Health Care repeal last month. This bill doesn't stand a chance because Obama will veto this right?
















Right?

why would he? Hes now into rendition and non judicial killings, BUT its all cool now....funny how that works.

 

[JBeukema]

A plan that would have seen the House of Representatives extend controversial provisions of the Patriot Act with little debate failed Tuesday night, as a group of Republicans joined a majority of Democrats in voting no.
The House voted 277 to 148 for the Patriot Act extension -- 23 votes short of the two-thirds majority needed to pass it under a procedure that allows bills that aren't controversial to pass quickly.
But it appears the bill was controversial enough to convince some two dozen tea party-backed Republican freshmen to join a majority of Democrats in voting against it, The Hill reported.

Patriot Act fails on House floor — but it will be back | Raw Story

 

[uscitizen]

Good that if did not pass. I wonder if they will combine it with tax cuts and food for starving children to get it to pass?

I found this very interesting from the OP link:
"as a group of Republicans joined a majority of Democrats in voting no."