Palestinians demand return of "their" heritage -- Dead Sea Scolls

[ForeverYoung436]

The recovered texts are the exact same texts that the Jewish people use today. Exact same. ...

The Bible is used by Christians and Followers of The Book are given special honor by Islam.

Its like saying that the Egyptians of ancient times are extinct (and no one speaks that language any more, nor practices that religion), therefore modern Egyptians have no rights to be guardians of the ancient Egyptian culture.

Modern Eqypt bears no resemblance to the Ancient Kingdoms.

... So, if you accept the idea that the Romans did, indeed, ethnically cleanse the Jewish people from their homeland and you accept that precious cultural heritage of the Jewish people was destroyed in the process, why would you deny the Jewish people their miraculously preserved cultural heritage today?

Rather it is consistent with the condemnation of any and all ethnic cleansing which includes what the Israelis did and are doing to the Palestinian people.

It seems to me that you are quick to criticize relatively minor insensitivity in other people while refusing to see greater faults of Israelis.

As you can see, Shusha , he is still parking himself here while hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians have been killed in other areas of the Middle East, and there are probably thousands and thousands who are wounded and unable to get medical care. We know that there are several million displaced people. The antiquities which have been destroyed there can never be replaced, but it is more important for him to constantly whine that the Scrolls belong to the Palestinians. Perhaps someone could arrange to have him sit down with a Palestinian and ask his new friend to read a couple of pages from the Scrolls.

As for the Muslims thoughts about Christianity.

'Break the Cross!' Muhammad Commands It

It was Shusha who made the Opening Post on this topic, not me.
He did it to mock the Palestinian people and I, for one, will not join in demeaning a people.

Don't you realize that all along you have been mocking the Jewish people by saying ancient scrolls written mainly in Hebrew don't belong to them, but belong to a people who have had nothing in common with the Jewish religion nor the Hebrew language.. We have seen this for years on forums. The Palestinians are used as pawns by others to get in their knocks in about the Jews. They care nothing about the suffering of people in other areas of the Middle East. So tell us, Eloy, since you are so familiar with shetls, are you familiar with the poverty that existed in many countries surrounding Israel that the Arabs came into Israel in droves (as reported by Winston Churchill)?

Churchill: Jews did not uproot Arabs. To the contrary, more Arabs came to Palestine because of the Jews - Reader comments for Gatestone Institute

I wrote that the Dead Sea Scrolls belong to everyone. I never said they do not belong to the Jews but I did write that they do not belong to the Israelis who purloined them.

I don't feel like going thru the whole thread. Give me a little history here. Academically, the Dead Sea Scrolls are mostly in the Hebrew language, and contain the Hebrew Bible. But who was in possession of them first and how did Israel "purloin" them?

 

[rylah]

What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews? Hebrew.

You don't say.

View of a typical Polish Shtetl in which Yiddish was spoken before the Final Solution.

So what's your argument here?

 

[rylah]

What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews? Hebrew.

You don't say.

View of a typical Polish Shtetl in which Yiddish was spoken before the Final Solution.

Do tell us, Eloy, in what language are the Jewish prayers said in and in what language do the Jewish students in Yeshivas study the Torah and other ancient Hebrew writings. Do the Palestinians use the same language for their prayers and do they study Hebrew in their madrassas to read the ancient Jewish writings?

טמבל​

It is my understanding that Yiddish was the spoken language of European Jews. Christians usually study the Bible in their own language but scholars study original texts in Hebrew and Greek. I am unfamiliar with Jewish and Muslim schools.

Yes Yiddish was the daily language, Hebrew was and still is the Holy language.
And what alphabet was used in Yiddish?

This is the Hebrew alphabet:

This is a printed Yiddish newspaper:

And here's a handwritten fragment of the Dead Sea scrolls (Psalm 138):

and the scroll alphabet:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you see much difference?

 

[rylah]

Arab people safeguard artifacts even though they were made by now defunct people. The Dead Sea Scrolls fall into this category. The Holy Land was a crossroads of several different cultures, mostly extinct. Civilizations came and went but the people, some of them, remained. The artifacts once associated with these people belong to all of us in one sense. The study of archaeology and ancient history sheds light on these ancient people and are a source enrichment for everyone. That the Dead Sea Scrolls can be attributed to an unorthodox Hebrew sect and possibly one that was shunned by rabbis in the Temple two millennia ago, does not give the Jews of modern Israel the right to steal all or any historical treasures from non-Jews on the grounds that they have an association with a defunct Jewish sect.

It is brazen effrontery for the modern state of Israel to claim that it speaks or acts for all Jews, including Jews who live in other countries and continents. It does not.

Ok. Wow.

#1. And I don't know how I could possibly make this more clear without yelling. Maybe I need to yell. THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE NOT DEFUNCT NOR EXTINCT NOR AN ANCIENT AND IRRELEVANT PIECE OF HISTORY. THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE A LIVING PEOPLE WITH A RICH, VIBRANT HISTORY AND A PROMISING FUTURE WITH A CLEAR CONTINUITY FROM THE MOST ANCIENT TIMES RIGHT UP TO THE PRESENT DAY. THESE DEAD SEA SCROLLS ARE THE VERY SAME DEFINING LITERATURE AND RELIGIOUS TEXTS WE USE TODAY. We clear, yet?

The sect which developed the Dead Sea Scrolls are understood by scholars to have become extinct a couple of thousand years ago. Some of the texts I understand to be from the Jewish Bible and other holy books written mostly in Hebrew and Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus as well as Greek. So, there are various influences.

#2. The Arab and Muslim people have a shitty, shitty, shitty record of safe-guarding and caretaking the historical and religious cultural heritage of other cultures. Come on! Temple Mount Sifting Project! The hell?! They are destroying irreplaceable archaeological finds in order to deny the existence of the Jewish people's history. And the Palestinians, through UNESCO, are ACTIVELY seeking to erase Jewish history and religious significance. They are re-writing the truth in order to eliminate the Jewish people's rights to our own cultural heritage. And you support this? Why? Why would you support this?

I am unfamiliar with excavations around the Al Aqsa mosque but the destruction of of all evidence of population of an ethnically cleansed people such as happened to the Jews under the Roman period is like a second cleansing and vile. I see this happening in Israel when Palestinian place names and their replacement with Hebrew and it is no less reprehensible.

#3. Israel absolutely has the right to act on behalf of the Jewish people everywhere when it comes to preserving and protecting our cultural heritage. That was the entire POINT of creating our own Nation! So that we could be protected. Wow. Are you that clueless? Is France no longer permitted to speak for the French? Is Japan no longer permitted to speak for the Japanese?

I see it quite differently; the British were offering European Jews a homeland as long as it was not in Europe. They settled on Palestine and the consequential death, bloodshed, and hateful propaganda has continued ever since. European Jews had nothing to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Many of the rich had already gone to America where they did rather well for themselves. Those in the east European shtetls suffered in the Final Solution. The British version of the final solution was to get the Jews out of Europe. Those Jews who went and took Arab land have no more right to speak for all Jews in the world no more than the Jews of Queens, New York can speak or all Jews.

But to ease your mind, let's ask. Let's ask some of our Jewish members here who they would prefer to have caretakership over our ancient Jewish texts? Hey, Hollie ,Roudy , rylah , irosie91 , SAYIT , MJB12741 , turzovka , (and please tag anyone I have forgotten): Who would you rather have as guardian of the oldest known extant texts of our Torah -- Israel or the Palestinian Authority? (I vote Israel, btw).

I heard that argumentum ad populum is supposed to be a logical fallacy. Thanks for the list.

Really 'Palestinian place names'? You mean like "renaming" Al-Halil into Hebron, interesting what came first?

 

[theliq]

Arab people safeguard artifacts even though they were made by now defunct people. The Dead Sea Scrolls fall into this category. The Holy Land was a crossroads of several different cultures, mostly extinct. Civilizations came and went but the people, some of them, remained. The artifacts once associated with these people belong to all of us in one sense. The study of archaeology and ancient history sheds light on these ancient people and are a source enrichment for everyone. That the Dead Sea Scrolls can be attributed to an unorthodox Hebrew sect and possibly one that was shunned by rabbis in the Temple two millennia ago, does not give the Jews of modern Israel the right to steal all or any historical treasures from non-Jews on the grounds that they have an association with a defunct Jewish sect.

It is brazen effrontery for the modern state of Israel to claim that it speaks or acts for all Jews, including Jews who live in other countries and continents. It does not.

Ok. Wow.

#1. And I don't know how I could possibly make this more clear without yelling. Maybe I need to yell. THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE NOT DEFUNCT NOR EXTINCT NOR AN ANCIENT AND IRRELEVANT PIECE OF HISTORY. THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE A LIVING PEOPLE WITH A RICH, VIBRANT HISTORY AND A PROMISING FUTURE WITH A CLEAR CONTINUITY FROM THE MOST ANCIENT TIMES RIGHT UP TO THE PRESENT DAY. THESE DEAD SEA SCROLLS ARE THE VERY SAME DEFINING LITERATURE AND RELIGIOUS TEXTS WE USE TODAY. We clear, yet?

The sect which developed the Dead Sea Scrolls are understood by scholars to have become extinct a couple of thousand years ago. Some of the texts I understand to be from the Jewish Bible and other holy books written mostly in Hebrew and Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus as well as Greek. So, there are various influences.

#2. The Arab and Muslim people have a shitty, shitty, shitty record of safe-guarding and caretaking the historical and religious cultural heritage of other cultures. Come on! Temple Mount Sifting Project! The hell?! They are destroying irreplaceable archaeological finds in order to deny the existence of the Jewish people's history. And the Palestinians, through UNESCO, are ACTIVELY seeking to erase Jewish history and religious significance. They are re-writing the truth in order to eliminate the Jewish people's rights to our own cultural heritage. And you support this? Why? Why would you support this?

I am unfamiliar with excavations around the Al Aqsa mosque but the destruction of of all evidence of population of an ethnically cleansed people such as happened to the Jews under the Roman period is like a second cleansing and vile. I see this happening in Israel when Palestinian place names and their replacement with Hebrew and it is no less reprehensible.

#3. Israel absolutely has the right to act on behalf of the Jewish people everywhere when it comes to preserving and protecting our cultural heritage. That was the entire POINT of creating our own Nation! So that we could be protected. Wow. Are you that clueless? Is France no longer permitted to speak for the French? Is Japan no longer permitted to speak for the Japanese?

I see it quite differently; the British were offering European Jews a homeland as long as it was not in Europe. They settled on Palestine and the consequential death, bloodshed, and hateful propaganda has continued ever since. European Jews had nothing to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Many of the rich had already gone to America where they did rather well for themselves. Those in the east European shtetls suffered in the Final Solution. The British version of the final solution was to get the Jews out of Europe. Those Jews who went and took Arab land have no more right to speak for all Jews in the world no more than the Jews of Queens, New York can speak or all Jews.

But to ease your mind, let's ask. Let's ask some of our Jewish members here who they would prefer to have caretakership over our ancient Jewish texts? Hey, Hollie ,Roudy , rylah , irosie91 , SAYIT , MJB12741 , turzovka , (and please tag anyone I have forgotten): Who would you rather have as guardian of the oldest known extant texts of our Torah -- Israel or the Palestinian Authority? (I vote Israel, btw).

I heard that argumentum ad populum is supposed to be a logical fallacy. Thanks for the list.

Really 'Palestinian place names'? You mean like "renaming" Al-Halil into Hebron, interesting what came first?

The Canaanites,Moabites,Philistines need I go on...Nah Israelites were Synthetic Come Latelys and EXTERMINATED these Peoples to GRAB THEIR LAND........Now WHERE HAVE I SEEN THIS BEFORE,that's right with the Palestinians but as much as you tried you could not EXTERMINATE Them.....Viva The Palestinians,Viva Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

I read an article only a few days ago about a modern Hebrew speaker wondering whether or not he could read the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls. So he tried.

And, yes, of course he could.

 

[theliq]

I read an article only a few days ago about a modern Hebrew speaker wondering whether or not he could read the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls. So he tried.

And, yes, of course he could.

Of Course,Jews are so Brilliant at everything..............Unfortunately NOT TRUE.....by the way the Jews of America have just been demoted into 2nd Place as the Ethnic Group who have the highest per-capita income in the USA,this title now goes to the Native Americans,makes you wonder.

 

[Shusha]

Oh wow. You must have been getting bored. After all, its been hours since you threw an anti-semitic canard at us. So let's throw out the -- Jews are so brilliant -- one. Yay you! Feel better now, do you?

Um. No. Silly. He could read it because its the same language.

 

[theliq]

Oh wow. You must have been getting bored. After all, its been hours since you threw an anti-semitic canard at us. So let's throw out the -- Jews are so brilliant -- one. Yay you! Feel better now, do you?

Um. No. Silly. He could read it because its the same language.

I know Shusha,I was just teasing you.....Ducks an all.Quack,Quack.steve

 

[montelatici]

The Bible is used by Christians and Followers of The Book are given special honor by Islam.

Modern Eqypt bears no resemblance to the Ancient Kingdoms.

Rather it is consistent with the condemnation of any and all ethnic cleansing which includes what the Israelis did and are doing to the Palestinian people.

It seems to me that you are quick to criticize relatively minor insensitivity in other people while refusing to see greater faults of Israelis.

As you can see, Shusha , he is still parking himself here while hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians have been killed in other areas of the Middle East, and there are probably thousands and thousands who are wounded and unable to get medical care. We know that there are several million displaced people. The antiquities which have been destroyed there can never be replaced, but it is more important for him to constantly whine that the Scrolls belong to the Palestinians. Perhaps someone could arrange to have him sit down with a Palestinian and ask his new friend to read a couple of pages from the Scrolls.

As for the Muslims thoughts about Christianity.

'Break the Cross!' Muhammad Commands It

It was Shusha who made the Opening Post on this topic, not me.
He did it to mock the Palestinian people and I, for one, will not join in demeaning a people.

Don't you realize that all along you have been mocking the Jewish people by saying ancient scrolls written mainly in Hebrew don't belong to them, but belong to a people who have had nothing in common with the Jewish religion nor the Hebrew language.. We have seen this for years on forums. The Palestinians are used as pawns by others to get in their knocks in about the Jews. They care nothing about the suffering of people in other areas of the Middle East. So tell us, Eloy, since you are so familiar with shetls, are you familiar with the poverty that existed in many countries surrounding Israel that the Arabs came into Israel in droves (as reported by Winston Churchill)?

Churchill: Jews did not uproot Arabs. To the contrary, more Arabs came to Palestine because of the Jews - Reader comments for Gatestone Institute

I wrote that the Dead Sea Scrolls belong to everyone. I never said they do not belong to the Jews but I did write that they do not belong to the Israelis who purloined them.

I don't feel like going thru the whole thread. Give me a little history here. Academically, the Dead Sea Scrolls are mostly in the Hebrew language, and contain the Hebrew Bible. But who was in possession of them first and how did Israel "purloin" them?

Does that mean that anything found in the Latin language belongs to the descendants of the Latins, the people of Latium (Lazio).

 

[theliq]

How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans that invaded Palestine? They are part of the heritage of the native people of Palestine that today are Christians and Muslims but many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism in the past.

Oh my. Another reiteration of your goofy slogans and cliches.

It's always a treat to read your copy and paste nonsense as you set the board straight, again, about that hallucination of a Jewish invasion that you imagine took place in the defunct Ottoman province of British Palestine. Phwew! We really needed to hear your religious hatreds spewed across the forums, again—thanks, Mahmoud!

Your latest tirade even identifies that Jews in Europe somehow had a different cultural and religious heritage than Jews elsewhere.

Do you understand anything? You have no facts on an issue, you are personally acknowledging your bias, and you are asking strangers on a public forum to help you justify your bias in your mind.

Doesn't that, at the very least, make you feel dirty?

They indeed DID have HAVE a DIFFERENT and CULTURAL and RELIGIOUS heritage THAN other JEWS....www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

You see I give you a greater insight into Jewish..History because I am more educated,keep that in mind,always Hollie and your indolent Possee......who purely live on banal inaccurate sound bites only ......steve.....

 

[montelatici]

Poor Hollie, an uneducated dummy that can only complain when others "cut and paste" facts from serious sources. All she knows is Zionist propaganda.

 

[theliq]

How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans that invaded Palestine? They are part of the heritage of the native people of Palestine that today are Christians and Muslims but many of whose ancestors practiced Judaism in the past.

What do the Palestinians want the scrolls for? The written material s not about them or the Christians. My guess is they only want them so they can sell them and make a buck.Well, they ain't getting their sticky little fingers on the scrolls.

Calling the Kettle Black methinks here Hoss.....your posts are decending into a vortex of Prue Insanity of late......I understand you tend to believe(SADLY) what the Synthetic Zionists are spewing......Time to take up the Bottle again Hoss...LOL,steve(Love you man,still)

 

[Hossfly]

As you can see, Shusha , he is still parking himself here while hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians have been killed in other areas of the Middle East, and there are probably thousands and thousands who are wounded and unable to get medical care. We know that there are several million displaced people. The antiquities which have been destroyed there can never be replaced, but it is more important for him to constantly whine that the Scrolls belong to the Palestinians. Perhaps someone could arrange to have him sit down with a Palestinian and ask his new friend to read a couple of pages from the Scrolls.

As for the Muslims thoughts about Christianity.

'Break the Cross!' Muhammad Commands It

It was Shusha who made the Opening Post on this topic, not me.
He did it to mock the Palestinian people and I, for one, will not join in demeaning a people.

Don't you realize that all along you have been mocking the Jewish people by saying ancient scrolls written mainly in Hebrew don't belong to them, but belong to a people who have had nothing in common with the Jewish religion nor the Hebrew language.. We have seen this for years on forums. The Palestinians are used as pawns by others to get in their knocks in about the Jews. They care nothing about the suffering of people in other areas of the Middle East. So tell us, Eloy, since you are so familiar with shetls, are you familiar with the poverty that existed in many countries surrounding Israel that the Arabs came into Israel in droves (as reported by Winston Churchill)?

Churchill: Jews did not uproot Arabs. To the contrary, more Arabs came to Palestine because of the Jews - Reader comments for Gatestone Institute

I wrote that the Dead Sea Scrolls belong to everyone. I never said they do not belong to the Jews but I did write that they do not belong to the Israelis who purloined them.

I don't feel like going thru the whole thread. Give me a little history here. Academically, the Dead Sea Scrolls are mostly in the Hebrew language, and contain the Hebrew Bible. But who was in possession of them first and how did Israel "purloin" them?

Does that mean that anything found in the Latin language belongs to the descendants of the Latins, the people of Latium (Lazio).

I would think that any ancient manuscript found in Latin these days should be handed over to the Vatican. The people there no doubt are very adept at reading Latin just as the people in Israel are adept at reading Hebrew.

 

[theliq]

How can the Dead Sea Scrolls be part of the heritage of a bunch of Europeans ...

This isn't rocket science, monte

What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews? Hebrew.
What language are the Dead Sea Scrolls (primarily) written in? Hebrew.
What language do the Arab Muslim people of Palestine speak? Arabic.

What religious doctrines are practiced by European Jews? Judaism
What religious doctrines are found in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Judaism.
What religious doctrines are practiced by the Arab Muslim people of Palestine? Islam.

What cultural celebrations and holidays are followed by the European Jews? Celebrations and holidays as laid out in Torah.
What cultural celebrations and holidays were written in the Dead Sea Scrolls? Celebrations and holidays as laid out in Torah.
What cultural celebrations and holidays are followed by the Arab Muslim people of Palestine? Celebrations and holidays as laid out in Quran.


So, I asked once before, I'll ask again -- why should cultural heritage follow land rather than people? Especially, why should a cultural heritage follow land which has been invaded by colonizers who co-opt, usurp, steal or assimilate the native culture? And if it comes down to guardianship of cultural heritage for the purpose of living it, and celebrating it and passing it down from generation to generation -- why should it be given over to a culture which does NOT live it, celebrate it or pass it down?

No1 Not Always
No2 Not Always
No3 Not Always because Palestinians are Christians Too
So I say your prose is too simplistic,not once,not twice but thrice.

 

[Eloy]

The Bible is used by Christians and Followers of The Book are given special honor by Islam.

Modern Eqypt bears no resemblance to the Ancient Kingdoms.

Rather it is consistent with the condemnation of any and all ethnic cleansing which includes what the Israelis did and are doing to the Palestinian people.

It seems to me that you are quick to criticize relatively minor insensitivity in other people while refusing to see greater faults of Israelis.

As you can see, Shusha , he is still parking himself here while hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians have been killed in other areas of the Middle East, and there are probably thousands and thousands who are wounded and unable to get medical care. We know that there are several million displaced people. The antiquities which have been destroyed there can never be replaced, but it is more important for him to constantly whine that the Scrolls belong to the Palestinians. Perhaps someone could arrange to have him sit down with a Palestinian and ask his new friend to read a couple of pages from the Scrolls.

As for the Muslims thoughts about Christianity.

'Break the Cross!' Muhammad Commands It

It was Shusha who made the Opening Post on this topic, not me.
He did it to mock the Palestinian people and I, for one, will not join in demeaning a people.

Don't you realize that all along you have been mocking the Jewish people by saying ancient scrolls written mainly in Hebrew don't belong to them, but belong to a people who have had nothing in common with the Jewish religion nor the Hebrew language.. We have seen this for years on forums. The Palestinians are used as pawns by others to get in their knocks in about the Jews. They care nothing about the suffering of people in other areas of the Middle East. So tell us, Eloy, since you are so familiar with shetls, are you familiar with the poverty that existed in many countries surrounding Israel that the Arabs came into Israel in droves (as reported by Winston Churchill)?

Churchill: Jews did not uproot Arabs. To the contrary, more Arabs came to Palestine because of the Jews - Reader comments for Gatestone Institute

I wrote that the Dead Sea Scrolls belong to everyone. I never said they do not belong to the Jews but I did write that they do not belong to the Israelis who purloined them.

I don't feel like going thru the whole thread. Give me a little history here. Academically, the Dead Sea Scrolls are mostly in the Hebrew language, and contain the Hebrew Bible. But who was in possession of them first and how did Israel "purloin" them?

The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered between 1946 and 1956 in eleven caves close to a an ancient Jewish settlement in Qumran in the eastern Judaean Desert which is now in the occupied West Bank. The Jewish sect at Qumran became extinct in the early Christian period.

They were housed in the Palestine Archaeological Museum in East Jerusalem when the Israelis invaded the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, in 1967. Once in Israeli possession, they were purloined by the Israeli government and are now kept by the Israeli Antiquities Authority in West Jerusalem.

 

[Eloy]

What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews? Hebrew.

You don't say.

View of a typical Polish Shtetl in which Yiddish was spoken before the Final Solution.

So what's your argument here?

I argue against Shusha that the language of European Jews was not Hebrew but Yiddish.

 

[Eloy]

What language do European Jews have in common with all other Jews? Hebrew.

You don't say.

View of a typical Polish Shtetl in which Yiddish was spoken before the Final Solution.

Do tell us, Eloy, in what language are the Jewish prayers said in and in what language do the Jewish students in Yeshivas study the Torah and other ancient Hebrew writings. Do the Palestinians use the same language for their prayers and do they study Hebrew in their madrassas to read the ancient Jewish writings?

טמבל​

It is my understanding that Yiddish was the spoken language of European Jews. Christians usually study the Bible in their own language but scholars study original texts in Hebrew and Greek. I am unfamiliar with Jewish and Muslim schools.

Yes Yiddish was the daily language, Hebrew was and still is the Holy language.
And what alphabet was used in Yiddish?

This is the Hebrew alphabet:

This is a printed Yiddish newspaper:

And here's a handwritten fragment of the Dead Sea scrolls (Psalm 138):

and the scroll alphabet:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you see much difference?

You are creating a false similarity between the Hebrew alphabet and the Hebrew language. As languages such as Swedish and Latin are distinctly different although both use the Latin alphabet, so Yiddish, which is predominantly German, is not Hebrew despite the alphabet and minor elements of Hebrew and Aramaic, as well as Slavic and Romance language borrowings.

 

[Eloy]

Arab people safeguard artifacts even though they were made by now defunct people. The Dead Sea Scrolls fall into this category. The Holy Land was a crossroads of several different cultures, mostly extinct. Civilizations came and went but the people, some of them, remained. The artifacts once associated with these people belong to all of us in one sense. The study of archaeology and ancient history sheds light on these ancient people and are a source enrichment for everyone. That the Dead Sea Scrolls can be attributed to an unorthodox Hebrew sect and possibly one that was shunned by rabbis in the Temple two millennia ago, does not give the Jews of modern Israel the right to steal all or any historical treasures from non-Jews on the grounds that they have an association with a defunct Jewish sect.

It is brazen effrontery for the modern state of Israel to claim that it speaks or acts for all Jews, including Jews who live in other countries and continents. It does not.

Ok. Wow.

#1. And I don't know how I could possibly make this more clear without yelling. Maybe I need to yell. THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE NOT DEFUNCT NOR EXTINCT NOR AN ANCIENT AND IRRELEVANT PIECE OF HISTORY. THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE A LIVING PEOPLE WITH A RICH, VIBRANT HISTORY AND A PROMISING FUTURE WITH A CLEAR CONTINUITY FROM THE MOST ANCIENT TIMES RIGHT UP TO THE PRESENT DAY. THESE DEAD SEA SCROLLS ARE THE VERY SAME DEFINING LITERATURE AND RELIGIOUS TEXTS WE USE TODAY. We clear, yet?

The sect which developed the Dead Sea Scrolls are understood by scholars to have become extinct a couple of thousand years ago. Some of the texts I understand to be from the Jewish Bible and other holy books written mostly in Hebrew and Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus as well as Greek. So, there are various influences.

#2. The Arab and Muslim people have a shitty, shitty, shitty record of safe-guarding and caretaking the historical and religious cultural heritage of other cultures. Come on! Temple Mount Sifting Project! The hell?! They are destroying irreplaceable archaeological finds in order to deny the existence of the Jewish people's history. And the Palestinians, through UNESCO, are ACTIVELY seeking to erase Jewish history and religious significance. They are re-writing the truth in order to eliminate the Jewish people's rights to our own cultural heritage. And you support this? Why? Why would you support this?

I am unfamiliar with excavations around the Al Aqsa mosque but the destruction of of all evidence of population of an ethnically cleansed people such as happened to the Jews under the Roman period is like a second cleansing and vile. I see this happening in Israel when Palestinian place names and their replacement with Hebrew and it is no less reprehensible.

#3. Israel absolutely has the right to act on behalf of the Jewish people everywhere when it comes to preserving and protecting our cultural heritage. That was the entire POINT of creating our own Nation! So that we could be protected. Wow. Are you that clueless? Is France no longer permitted to speak for the French? Is Japan no longer permitted to speak for the Japanese?

I see it quite differently; the British were offering European Jews a homeland as long as it was not in Europe. They settled on Palestine and the consequential death, bloodshed, and hateful propaganda has continued ever since. European Jews had nothing to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Many of the rich had already gone to America where they did rather well for themselves. Those in the east European shtetls suffered in the Final Solution. The British version of the final solution was to get the Jews out of Europe. Those Jews who went and took Arab land have no more right to speak for all Jews in the world no more than the Jews of Queens, New York can speak or all Jews.

But to ease your mind, let's ask. Let's ask some of our Jewish members here who they would prefer to have caretakership over our ancient Jewish texts? Hey, Hollie ,Roudy , rylah , irosie91 , SAYIT , MJB12741 , turzovka , (and please tag anyone I have forgotten): Who would you rather have as guardian of the oldest known extant texts of our Torah -- Israel or the Palestinian Authority? (I vote Israel, btw).

I heard that argumentum ad populum is supposed to be a logical fallacy. Thanks for the list.

Really 'Palestinian place names'? You mean like "renaming" Al-Halil into Hebron, interesting what came first?

I gather from your tone that you are not familiar with the Israeli practice, in Israel proper, of changing the Arab names of properties to Hebrew and sometimes obliterating evidence of Palestinian habitation altogether in order to ethnically cleanse stolen Arab villages and structures. This is done to legitimize the dispossession of Arabs from their homes and somehow make it look like the area was and is Jewish. It is, of course, bogus. For example, the Palestinian village of Safuriyeh in northern Israel was mostly demolished and in its place the Israelis planted pine trees and the name of the area was changed to Tzippori. The place has been ethnically cleansed. This is just one of many instances of the dispossession and displacement of Palestinians by Israelis in Israel.

 

[theliq]

As you can see, Shusha , he is still parking himself here while hundreds of thousands of Muslims and Christians have been killed in other areas of the Middle East, and there are probably thousands and thousands who are wounded and unable to get medical care. We know that there are several million displaced people. The antiquities which have been destroyed there can never be replaced, but it is more important for him to constantly whine that the Scrolls belong to the Palestinians. Perhaps someone could arrange to have him sit down with a Palestinian and ask his new friend to read a couple of pages from the Scrolls.

As for the Muslims thoughts about Christianity.

'Break the Cross!' Muhammad Commands It

It was Shusha who made the Opening Post on this topic, not me.
He did it to mock the Palestinian people and I, for one, will not join in demeaning a people.

Don't you realize that all along you have been mocking the Jewish people by saying ancient scrolls written mainly in Hebrew don't belong to them, but belong to a people who have had nothing in common with the Jewish religion nor the Hebrew language.. We have seen this for years on forums. The Palestinians are used as pawns by others to get in their knocks in about the Jews. They care nothing about the suffering of people in other areas of the Middle East. So tell us, Eloy, since you are so familiar with shetls, are you familiar with the poverty that existed in many countries surrounding Israel that the Arabs came into Israel in droves (as reported by Winston Churchill)?

Churchill: Jews did not uproot Arabs. To the contrary, more Arabs came to Palestine because of the Jews - Reader comments for Gatestone Institute

I wrote that the Dead Sea Scrolls belong to everyone. I never said they do not belong to the Jews but I did write that they do not belong to the Israelis who purloined them.

I don't feel like going thru the whole thread. Give me a little history here. Academically, the Dead Sea Scrolls are mostly in the Hebrew language, and contain the Hebrew Bible. But who was in possession of them first and how did Israel "purloin" them?

The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered between 1946 and 1956 in eleven caves close to a an ancient Jewish settlement in Qumran in the eastern Judaean Desert which is now in the occupied West Bank. The Jewish sect at Qumran became extinct in the early Christian period.

They were housed in the Palestine Archaeological Museum in East Jerusalem when the Israelis invaded the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, in 1967. Once in Israeli possession, they were purloined by the Israeli government and are now kept by the Israeli Antiquities Authority in West Jerusalem.

Of course they are Palestinian,Eloy I think I read somewhere,that the Scrolls were in the possession of an extinct Christian Group..The Nostics?????or am I talking Shit..steve