Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.

[Hollie]

◈. Israel was released from the British Mandate and became independent in May 1948.

It is my understanding that the new states were released from mandate and became independent by treaty with the mandate powers. I don't recall such a treaty with Israel.

Could you clarify that for me?

If you could provide a number identifying how many more times you need clarification... to clarify what has already been clarified for you... in excruciating detail.... that would be helpful.

Or, is all this really about your need to spam the thread?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.
SUBTOPIC: Territorial Partition & Independence
⁜→ Hollie, P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: WOW! you are really reaching for it. There is no condition in which a treaty is required, although they can be helpful.

◈ Israel was released from the British Mandate and became independent in May 1948.

It is my understanding that the new states were released from mandate and became independent by treaty with the mandate powers. I don't recall such a treaty with Israel.
Could you clarify that for me?

(COMMENT)

The UN does NOT make Treaties with states, because under Treaty Law:

Treaty Law​

"Treaty" means an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation;​

​

It was the "recommendation" that: "A declaration shall be made to the United Nations by the provisional government of each proposed State before independence." [Part I, Section "C", A/RES/181 (II)]

​

This is an example of an automous government making itself known (Self-Determination). [Para 1 • A/RES/49/148]

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

◈. Israel was released from the British Mandate and became independent in May 1948.

It is my understanding that the new states were released from mandate and became independent by treaty with the mandate powers. I don't recall such a treaty with Israel.

Could you clarify that for me?

What "new states"?

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.
SUBTOPIC: Territorial Partition & Independence
⁜→ Hollie, P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: WOW! you are really reaching for it. There is no condition in which a treaty is required, although they can be helpful.

◈ Israel was released from the British Mandate and became independent in May 1948.

It is my understanding that the new states were released from mandate and became independent by treaty with the mandate powers. I don't recall such a treaty with Israel.
Could you clarify that for me?

(COMMENT)

The UN does NOT make Treaties with states, because under Treaty Law:

Treaty Law​

"Treaty" means an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation;​

​

It was the "recommendation" that: "A declaration shall be made to the United Nations by the provisional government of each proposed State before independence." [Part I, Section "C", A/RES/181 (II)]

View attachment 480185
​

This is an example of an automous government making itself known (Self-Determination). [Para 1 • A/RES/49/148]

Most Respectfully,
R

That wasn't the question.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.
SUBTOPIC: Territorial Partition & Independence
⁜→ Hollie, P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: WOW! you are really reaching for it. There is no condition in which a treaty is required, although they can be helpful.

This is an example of an automous government making itself known (Self-Determination). [Para 1 • A/RES/49/148]

That wasn't the question.

It is my understanding that the new states were released from mandate and became independent by treaty with the mandate powers.
(COMMENT)

FIRST
I answered the question: Your understanding is wrong. You will not find any Customary or International Law that supports "your understanding."

SECOND
While all the other carve-outs were release by the Mandate, Israel was released from trusteeship through intent and without objection.

THIRD
Not all the Mandates survived WWII. In the case of Lebanon, the French considered Lebanon to be an autonomous province with provision statehood since August 1920. The Vichy Government controlled Lebanon through WWII. The French-Lebonesee Treaty of Independence and Friendship (1936) was never ratified. The Vichy Government came to power and remained the authority until British Forces Liberated Lebanon and drove them from power. It was only then that the Free French Forces released Lebanon, without formality. However, even though Lebanon and Syria were covered by the same Mandate, Sryia was a different matter. The Vienot Accords with Syria also recognized two autonomous regions (Druze and Alawite). Once the French withdrew, Sryia became the embryonic seed of thee unstable governance that we see today.

​

It is almost as bad as Yemen. Syrian Refugees are a steady trickle into the Hezbollah Controlled al-Bekaa Valley. While Beirut claims sovereignty, the real power is in the hands of the Hezbollah as was demonstrated when the outspoken Lebanese activist and writer Lokman Slim was murdered.

Oddly enough, the only government in the entire picture to stabilize and prosper after the 1949 Ceasefire is the one that all the shaky and unstable governments criticize: Israel (no internal/domestic strife).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.
SUBTOPIC: Territorial Partition & Independence
⁜→ Hollie, P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: WOW! you are really reaching for it. There is no condition in which a treaty is required, although they can be helpful.

This is an example of an automous government making itself known (Self-Determination). [Para 1 • A/RES/49/148]

That wasn't the question.

It is my understanding that the new states were released from mandate and became independent by treaty with the mandate powers.
(COMMENT)

FIRST
I answered the question: Your understanding is wrong. You will not find any Customary or International Law that supports "your understanding."

SECOND
While all the other carve-outs were release by the Mandate, Israel was released from trusteeship through intent and without objection.

THIRD
Not all the Mandates survived WWII. In the case of Lebanon, the French considered Lebanon to be an autonomous province with provision statehood since August 1920. The Vichy Government controlled Lebanon through WWII. The French-Lebonesee Treaty of Independence and Friendship (1936) was never ratified. The Vichy Government came to power and remained the authority until British Forces Liberated Lebanon and drove them from power. It was only then that the Free French Forces released Lebanon, without formality. However, even though Lebanon and Syria were covered by the same Mandate, Sryia was a different matter. The Vienot Accords with Syria also recognized two autonomous regions (Druze and Alawite). Once the French withdrew, Sryia became the embryonic seed of thee unstable governance that we see today.

View attachment 480230
​

It is almost as bad as Yemen. Syrian Refugees are a steady trickle into the Hezbollah Controlled al-Bekaa Valley. While Beirut claims sovereignty, the real power is in the hands of the Hezbollah as was demonstrated when the outspoken Lebanese activist and writer Lokman Slim was murdered.

Oddly enough, the only government in the entire picture to stabilize and prosper after the 1949 Ceasefire is the one that all the shaky and unstable governments criticize: Israel (no internal/domestic strife).

Most Respectfully,
R

This is an example of an automous government making itself known (Self-Determination). [Para 1 • A/RES/49/148]

This defines Palestine.

Welcoming the progressive exercise of the right to self-determination by peoples under colonial, foreign or alien occupation and their emergence into sovereign statehood and independence,

Deeply concerned at the continuation of acts or threats of foreign military intervention and occupation that are threatening to suppress, or have already suppressed, the right to self-determination of an increasing number of sovereign peoples and nations,

Expressing grave concern that, as a consequence of the persistence of such actions, millions of people have been and are being uprooted from their homes as refugees and displaced persons, and emphasizing the urgent need for concerted international action to alleviate their condition,​

You have never explained how foreign colonial settlers can have the right to self determination at the expense of the native population.

 

[rylah]

You have never explained how foreign colonial settlers can have the right to self determination at the expense of the native population.

Since that is exactly what you're promoting here,
maybe you explain that to us?

Why do you think Arabs deserve exclusive domination over the entire Middle East,
at the expense of those native populations?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.
SUBTOPIC: Territorial Partition & Independence
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: You are reading the "Universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination" as if it uniquely applied to the Hostile Arab Palestinians. I call your attention to the fact that A/RES/49/148 was written after the Oslo Peace Accords when the designations of Areas "A" • "B" and "C" were agreed upon. It was not directed at the post-1967 Conflict could have been written to describe the any of the on-going International Armed Conflicts (IAC):

◈. Somali Civil War​

◈. Bosnian War​

◈. Iraqi Kurdish Civil War​

◈. Armenian-Azerbaijani border conflict​

◈. First Chechen War​

◈. Cenepa War​

In fact, A/RES/49/148 is generic and allies as the title implies → "universally."

This is an example of an automous government making itself known (Self-Determination). [Para 1 • A/RES/49/148]

[/quote]

This defines Palestine.

Welcoming the progressive exercise of the right to self-determination by peoples under colonial, foreign or alien occupation and their emergence into sovereign statehood and independence,​

(COMMENT)

It applies equally well to the attempt by foreign forces of the Arab League attempt to intervene in the establishment of Israel and the foreign occupation of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

​

Deeply concerned at the continuation of acts or threats of foreign military intervention and occupation that are threatening to suppress, or have already suppressed, the right to self-determination of an increasing number of sovereign peoples and nations,​

(COMMENT)

That could very well apply to the continued (1948 → continued through 1995) threats by the various terrorist organizations to destroy Israel.

Expressing grave concern that, as a consequence of the persistence of such actions, millions of people have been and are being uprooted from their homes as refugees and displaced persons, and emphasizing the urgent need for concerted international action to alleviate their condition,​

(COMMENT)

The 1967 was actually a continuation of the 1948 War since the Armistice agreements were still in force. The Six-Day War, now more then a half-century behind us in history, is a conflict where each side points at the other and blames them. BUT, the conflict really doesn't change the outcome. And let's not forget that the Arab League tried for a second time to invade Israeli controlled territory and sovereignty, to challenges the territorial integrity.

The wars are over. Instead of danger in every direction, there are agreements and new beginnings in every direction. The Arab Palestinians have, pretty much, lost their bid and are trying to incite conflict as a means to bolster their cause.

The "displaced persons" situation is what it is. As long as their is and endless stream of annual funding for the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), there will be a unique definition for refugees in the Region. Until the elimination of the UNRWA, there will always be a growing population of refugees, instead of diminishing numbers.

Those displaced persons that once had Jordanian citizenship or are claimed as the defined population for the State of Palestine are accounted for and removed from the roster of refugees, we will never really grasp the true magnitude of the problem.

Arab Palestinians that are citizens of the State of Palestine cannot really justify their status as a refugee.

You have never explained how foreign colonial settlers can have the right to self determination at the expense of the native population.

(COMMENT)

Well, you are wrong here. I have explained it. The Allied Powers facilitated immigration and settlement for the purpose of reconstructing the Jewish National Home.

Turkey renounced all rights and title over the territory under discussion. By treaty, the future of these territories being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned was determined by the Allied Powers.

Self-Determination is defined as inclusive of all people. Self-Determination does not exclude some people because the Arab Palestinians don't like them. Self-Determination does not exclude some people because the Arab Palestinians did not get what they wanted under the threat of violence.

Finally, right or wrong, Israel is formed. Whether it is the Arab Palestinians or the International Courts that want to force a change to the territorial integrity and threaten the peace, well they will have to pay for the consequences. But remember, All Members (of the UN) shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

RE: Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.
SUBTOPIC: Territorial Partition & Independence
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: You are reading the "Universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination" as if it uniquely applied to the Hostile Arab Palestinians. I call your attention to the fact that A/RES/49/148 was written after the Oslo Peace Accords when the designations of Areas "A" • "B" and "C" were agreed upon. It was not directed at the post-1967 Conflict could have been written to describe the any of the on-going International Armed Conflicts (IAC):

◈. Somali Civil War​

◈. Bosnian War​

◈. Iraqi Kurdish Civil War​

◈. Armenian-Azerbaijani border conflict​

◈. First Chechen War​

◈. Cenepa War​

In fact, A/RES/49/148 is generic and allies as the title implies → "universally."

This is an example of an automous government making itself known (Self-Determination). [Para 1 • A/RES/49/148]

This defines Palestine.

Welcoming the progressive exercise of the right to self-determination by peoples under colonial, foreign or alien occupation and their emergence into sovereign statehood and independence,​

(COMMENT)

It applies equally well to the attempt by foreign forces of the Arab League attempt to intervene in the establishment of Israel and the foreign occupation of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

​

Deeply concerned at the continuation of acts or threats of foreign military intervention and occupation that are threatening to suppress, or have already suppressed, the right to self-determination of an increasing number of sovereign peoples and nations,​

(COMMENT)

That could very well apply to the continued (1948 → continued through 1995) threats by the various terrorist organizations to destroy Israel.

Expressing grave concern that, as a consequence of the persistence of such actions, millions of people have been and are being uprooted from their homes as refugees and displaced persons, and emphasizing the urgent need for concerted international action to alleviate their condition,​

(COMMENT)

The 1967 was actually a continuation of the 1948 War since the Armistice agreements were still in force. The Six-Day War, now more then a half-century behind us in history, is a conflict where each side points at the other and blames them. BUT, the conflict really doesn't change the outcome. And let's not forget that the Arab League tried for a second time to invade Israeli controlled territory and sovereignty, to challenges the territorial integrity.

The wars are over. Instead of danger in every direction, there are agreements and new beginnings in every direction. The Arab Palestinians have, pretty much, lost their bid and are trying to incite conflict as a means to bolster their cause.

The "displaced persons" situation is what it is. As long as their is and endless stream of annual funding for the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), there will be a unique definition for refugees in the Region. Until the elimination of the UNRWA, there will always be a growing population of refugees, instead of diminishing numbers.

Those displaced persons that once had Jordanian citizenship or are claimed as the defined population for the State of Palestine are accounted for and removed from the roster of refugees, we will never really grasp the true magnitude of the problem.

Arab Palestinians that are citizens of the State of Palestine cannot really justify their status as a refugee.

You have never explained how foreign colonial settlers can have the right to self determination at the expense of the native population.

(COMMENT)

Well, you are wrong here. I have explained it. The Allied Powers facilitated immigration and settlement for the purpose of reconstructing the Jewish National Home.

Turkey renounced all rights and title over the territory under discussion. By treaty, the future of these territories being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned was determined by the Allied Powers.

Self-Determination is defined as inclusive of all people. Self-Determination does not exclude some people because the Arab Palestinians don't like them. Self-Determination does not exclude some people because the Arab Palestinians did not get what they wanted under the threat of violence.

Finally, right or wrong, Israel is formed. Whether it is the Arab Palestinians or the International Courts that want to force a change to the territorial integrity and threaten the peace, well they will have to pay for the consequences. But remember, All Members (of the UN) shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

Most Respectfully,
R
[/QUOTE]
The bolded underlined part is extremely true and it is something I have been trying to put in to words for a while but could not. Thanks Rocco !!

 

[P F Tinmore]

And let's not forget that the Arab League tried for a second time to invade Israeli controlled territory and sovereignty, to challenges the territorial integrity.

You keep saying that like Israel has territory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Arab Palestinians that are citizens of the State of Palestine cannot really justify their status as a refugee.

Then why do they all need to carry foreign IDs.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The 1967 was actually a continuation of the 1948 War since the Armistice agreements were still in force.

The 1948 war was a different war than the Nakba.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Self-Determination does not exclude some people because the Arab Palestinians don't like them.

That wasn't the point.

 

[P F Tinmore]

All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

 

[Hollie]

And let's not forget that the Arab League tried for a second time to invade Israeli controlled territory and sovereignty, to challenges the territorial integrity.

You keep saying that like Israel has territory.

You keep agonizing over the fact that Israel has borders, territorial integrity and a modern, high tech society. The Pally's don't. That causes you such angst, envy and misdirected hate at the Israelis.

Take responsibility for your failures.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why do you think Arabs deserve exclusive domination over the entire Middle East,

The new states were given to the people who lived there. Race, religion, etc. were not an issue.

 

[P F Tinmore]

You are reading the "Universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination" as if it uniquely applied to the Hostile Arab Palestinians.

Why would it not apply to them? Why are they an exception to the norm?

 

[Hollie]

Why do you think Arabs deserve exclusive domination over the entire Middle East,

The new states were given to the people who lived there. Race, religion, etc. were not an issue.

Ah. The ''new states'', slogan. Odd that you can't identify these ''new states''. If, as you claim, the Treaty of Lausanne invented ''new states'', could you identify in that Treaty where those ''new states'' are named? What are the names of those ''new states'' invented by the Treaty of Lausanne? How is it that the Treaty of Lausanne was tasked with giving people ''new states''?

 

[Hollie]

Why do you think Arabs deserve exclusive domination over the entire Middle East,

The new states were given to the people who lived there. Race, religion, etc. were not an issue.

Your usual sidestep and deflection with an emoticon.

So, we can agree your ''new states'' slogan is nonsense and the Treaty of Lausanne never gave any ''new states'' to anyone?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Palestinian Talks, lectures, & interviews.
SUBTOPIC: Territorial Partition & Independence
⁜→ P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,

BLUF: No matter what you may say here, in this Discussion Group, it does not alter the absolute ground truth or the reality that exist today. The international demarcation (for sovereign borders) of Israel is demonstrated by the physical barriers or border landmarks and markings of Israel's sovereign control → on the ground.

Self-Determination does not exclude some people because the Arab Palestinians don't like them.

That wasn't the point.

(COMMENT)

OH yes it was. You have been harping for "Years" about a convincing map as proof, or some unimpeachable document, that stipulates where Israeli sovereignty is outlined. Well, the fact of the matter is, that is totally unnecessary. But the State of Palestine has no supporting documentation on a border arrangement in which they are a party except for the Oslo Accords. Israel actually has arrangement in which they are a party.

And let's not forget that the Arab League tried for a second time to invade Israeli controlled territory and sovereignty, to challenges the territorial integrity.

You keep saying that like Israel has territory.

(COMMENT)

The political existence of the Israel is independent of recognition by opposing Arab Palestinians. Israel has the necessary defined territory. In fact, every single day, Israel defends that border. And even any Gaza knows where Israel begins because they try to penetrate on a frequent basis.

You keep saying that like Israel has territory.

(COMMENT)

Every Arab Palestinian has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of Israel or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

Every Arab Palestinian likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect.

In cases of disrespect, Israel has the responsibility to defend the nation or take such actions as may be required to neutralize
the threat or use of force against Israeli territorial integrity or Israeli political independence.

Arab Palestinians that are citizens of the State of Palestine cannot really justify their status as a refugee.

Then why do they all need to carry foreign IDs.

(COMMENT)

When I travelled to any country in Europe or the Far East, I must be able to present the agreed upon Identification. In many countries I had to obtain (or in some cases purchase upon entry or departure). When I entered Kuwait, I had to buy a Visa at the border. When I entered or departed Jordan, I had to purchase the corresponding entry and exit stamps or papers. The people in The Gaza Strip have no foreign identification requirement. The people that stay in Area "A" in the West Bank have no requirement for foreign identification. But if an Arab Palestinian transits a territorial control point (Areas "B" and "C" where Israel controls security) or a border crossing.

There are all sorts of identification requirements. In my experience, I have had to present health insurance card to receive an entry permit into some countries. And these days your health insurance must cover the coronavirus. Although I have not yet been required to show it, I do have a VA Issued shot record for the COVID-19 vaccination.

When the State of Palestine cannot generate the appropriate kind of Identification, travel documents or passports, the Palestinian Center can offer some advice.

Most Respectfully,
R