Palestine Loss of Land 1946 - 2000

[P F Tinmore]

And that changes my post how.

It corrects the false representation in your cut and paste that the geographic area termed "Palestine" was ever a state.

Where does it say that?

In the article.

Cant you read English, is that where you have so much trouble understanding that there was never a state of Palestine prior to 1988.

You still got nothing, huh?

 

[fanger]

 

[aris2chat]

11 pages but worth the read

http://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

 

[Phoenall]

Tin, sometimes I have trouble following your line of thinking. Who, in your opinion, were the parties to the 1948 war? And who, in the above sentence, were the "Palestinians", who you claim were not party to the war? Please, be specific.

Indeed, it is called cognitive dissonance.

The forces of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan/Iraq, and Egypt entered Palestine to confront Israeli forces in Palestine.

The Palestinians, of course, were the citizens of Palestine. Palestine had no army so they could not engage in any war. It was a matter of Israel's military attacking Palestinian civilians.

The five Arab armies entered Palestine to defend these civilians from military attack.

What alternate reality are you describing?

Indeed, there was a never a national entity called "Palestine" in the timeline you are so utterly befuddled about.

Indeed, the only description of Pal'istanians as a national identity was a late 1960's invention of Yassir "show me the money" Arafat.

In a broader international legal context, the “Nationality law... showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship”. The inclusion of Palestinian nationality in the text of the Palestine Mandate was the first step towards an international recognition of the Palestinian people as distinct from the Ottomans and other peoples. Indeed, Palestinian nationality, like any other nationality, constituted the legal bond which connected individuals to collectively form a people as an element of a state.

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the international law perspective. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British Government rightly pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine”. And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality”.

https://doc.rero.ch/record/9065/files/these.pdf

Sorry but not a valid source as the author alter and manipulates official documents to meet with his and yours POV. The treaty of Lausanne does not mention palestine by name, and the nationality was that of the mandatory power as no state of Palestine was in existence. The legality of Palestine was that of the MANDATE OF PALESTINE that set out the borders of said mandate.


To settle this dispute once and for all produce the treaty in full that names Palestine as a nation prior to 1988 that was accepted by the UN/LoN with the signature appended to the document of the official ruler/leader of Palestine. A photograph of this ruler/leader would also help along with his official residence. Failure to accept this request shows that you are LYING because you want to disinherit the Jews of their homeland and will go to any lengths to peddle your anti semitic hatred.

WOW, so much Israeli propaganda all at once.

Sorry but not a valid source as the author alter and manipulates official documents to meet with his and yours POV.​

Examples?

Read his work and you will see where he adds his own words to alter the meaning of treaties. If you cant see it then you are being fed disinformation.



Now produce the treaty he claims names Palestine as a state in full, Then details of the ruler/leader of the Palestinian state and where its capital city was. What its currency was and its GDP.

Like Israel that came into existence when the Jews declared independence on may 15 1948 with David Ben-Gurion as its prime minister. It had its capital as Tel Aviv and its currency was the NIS. Israel's GDP went from one of the worst in 1949 to one of the best in 2015.


Your turn with palestine

 

[Phoenall]

It corrects the false representation in your cut and paste that the geographic area termed "Palestine" was ever a state.

Where does it say that?

In the article.

Cant you read English, is that where you have so much trouble understanding that there was never a state of Palestine prior to 1988.

You still got nothing, huh?

A lot more thqan you as you use the same LIES even after being shown they are LIES

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where does it say that?

In the article.

Cant you read English, is that where you have so much trouble understanding that there was never a state of Palestine prior to 1988.

You still got nothing, huh?

A lot more thqan you as you use the same LIES even after being shown they are LIES

Still nothing.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Indeed, it is called cognitive dissonance.

The forces of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan/Iraq, and Egypt entered Palestine to confront Israeli forces in Palestine.

The Palestinians, of course, were the citizens of Palestine. Palestine had no army so they could not engage in any war. It was a matter of Israel's military attacking Palestinian civilians.

The five Arab armies entered Palestine to defend these civilians from military attack.

What alternate reality are you describing?

Indeed, there was a never a national entity called "Palestine" in the timeline you are so utterly befuddled about.

Indeed, the only description of Pal'istanians as a national identity was a late 1960's invention of Yassir "show me the money" Arafat.

In a broader international legal context, the “Nationality law... showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship”. The inclusion of Palestinian nationality in the text of the Palestine Mandate was the first step towards an international recognition of the Palestinian people as distinct from the Ottomans and other peoples. Indeed, Palestinian nationality, like any other nationality, constituted the legal bond which connected individuals to collectively form a people as an element of a state.

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the international law perspective. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British Government rightly pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine”. And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality”.

https://doc.rero.ch/record/9065/files/these.pdf

Sorry but not a valid source as the author alter and manipulates official documents to meet with his and yours POV. The treaty of Lausanne does not mention palestine by name, and the nationality was that of the mandatory power as no state of Palestine was in existence. The legality of Palestine was that of the MANDATE OF PALESTINE that set out the borders of said mandate.


To settle this dispute once and for all produce the treaty in full that names Palestine as a nation prior to 1988 that was accepted by the UN/LoN with the signature appended to the document of the official ruler/leader of Palestine. A photograph of this ruler/leader would also help along with his official residence. Failure to accept this request shows that you are LYING because you want to disinherit the Jews of their homeland and will go to any lengths to peddle your anti semitic hatred.

WOW, so much Israeli propaganda all at once.

Sorry but not a valid source as the author alter and manipulates official documents to meet with his and yours POV.​

Examples?

Read his work and you will see where he adds his own words to alter the meaning of treaties. If you cant see it then you are being fed disinformation.



Now produce the treaty he claims names Palestine as a state in full, Then details of the ruler/leader of the Palestinian state and where its capital city was. What its currency was and its GDP.

Like Israel that came into existence when the Jews declared independence on may 15 1948 with David Ben-Gurion as its prime minister. It had its capital as Tel Aviv and its currency was the NIS. Israel's GDP went from one of the worst in 1949 to one of the best in 2015.


Your turn with palestine

I thought Israel's capital was West Jerusalem from the start.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What alternate reality are you describing?

Indeed, there was a never a national entity called "Palestine" in the timeline you are so utterly befuddled about.

Indeed, the only description of Pal'istanians as a national identity was a late 1960's invention of Yassir "show me the money" Arafat.

In a broader international legal context, the “Nationality law... showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship”. The inclusion of Palestinian nationality in the text of the Palestine Mandate was the first step towards an international recognition of the Palestinian people as distinct from the Ottomans and other peoples. Indeed, Palestinian nationality, like any other nationality, constituted the legal bond which connected individuals to collectively form a people as an element of a state.

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the international law perspective. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British Government rightly pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine”. And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality”.

https://doc.rero.ch/record/9065/files/these.pdf

Sorry but not a valid source as the author alter and manipulates official documents to meet with his and yours POV. The treaty of Lausanne does not mention palestine by name, and the nationality was that of the mandatory power as no state of Palestine was in existence. The legality of Palestine was that of the MANDATE OF PALESTINE that set out the borders of said mandate.


To settle this dispute once and for all produce the treaty in full that names Palestine as a nation prior to 1988 that was accepted by the UN/LoN with the signature appended to the document of the official ruler/leader of Palestine. A photograph of this ruler/leader would also help along with his official residence. Failure to accept this request shows that you are LYING because you want to disinherit the Jews of their homeland and will go to any lengths to peddle your anti semitic hatred.

WOW, so much Israeli propaganda all at once.

Sorry but not a valid source as the author alter and manipulates official documents to meet with his and yours POV.​

Examples?

Read his work and you will see where he adds his own words to alter the meaning of treaties. If you cant see it then you are being fed disinformation.



Now produce the treaty he claims names Palestine as a state in full, Then details of the ruler/leader of the Palestinian state and where its capital city was. What its currency was and its GDP.

Like Israel that came into existence when the Jews declared independence on may 15 1948 with David Ben-Gurion as its prime minister. It had its capital as Tel Aviv and its currency was the NIS. Israel's GDP went from one of the worst in 1949 to one of the best in 2015.


Your turn with palestine

I thought Israel's capital was West Jerusalem from the start.

No. Israel won it from the UN in a defensive war.

 

[aris2chat]

>>Land owned by the Jews in 1948 9%
Land owned by the Arabs in 1948 10%
Land owned by the state and leased on a limited basis to people to use: 81%

80% of the land was initially given to the Palestinians and became what is Jordan today (yep, ethnically there is zero deference between the Jordanians and the so called Palestinians). The remaining 20% is what got divided up in the Mandate so that Jews ended up with a mere 10% of the land and the Palestinians 90%. This was not good enough for the Arabs so in 1948 5 Arab countries launched a war to try and wipe out the Jews- they failed. However, Egypt stole land from the palestianins (Gaza) and Jordan stole land intended for the Palestinians (the West Bank)- the Arabs gave 0% of the land intended for the Palestinians to the Palestinians!<<

 

[aris2chat]

Palestinians try to nullify sales of land but as far back as the Ottomans......

>>The process of converting arable land to individual ownership was accelerated to only a few years when laws were enacted in the 1870s stipulating that no sale of land by an individual Muslim could be invalidated by the claim that it was collectively owned.<<

Today palestinians try to use the "collective" with regard to orchards and other land. Their attempts were not legal then, under the mandates or now.

 

[montelatici]

>>Land owned by the Jews in 1948 9%
Land owned by the Arabs in 1948 10%
Land owned by the state and leased on a limited basis to people to use: 81%

80% of the land was initially given to the Palestinians and became what is Jordan today (yep, ethnically there is zero deference between the Jordanians and the so called Palestinians). The remaining 20% is what got divided up in the Mandate so that Jews ended up with a mere 10% of the land and the Palestinians 90%. This was not good enough for the Arabs so in 1948 5 Arab countries launched a war to try and wipe out the Jews- they failed. However, Egypt stole land from the palestianins (Gaza) and Jordan stole land intended for the Palestinians (the West Bank)- the Arabs gave 0% of the land intended for the Palestinians to the Palestinians!<<

Christians and Muslims owned more than 90% of the land prior to partition in 1946.

Table 2. Survey of Palestine page 566.

A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

 

[Hollie]

>>Land owned by the Jews in 1948 9%
Land owned by the Arabs in 1948 10%
Land owned by the state and leased on a limited basis to people to use: 81%

80% of the land was initially given to the Palestinians and became what is Jordan today (yep, ethnically there is zero deference between the Jordanians and the so called Palestinians). The remaining 20% is what got divided up in the Mandate so that Jews ended up with a mere 10% of the land and the Palestinians 90%. This was not good enough for the Arabs so in 1948 5 Arab countries launched a war to try and wipe out the Jews- they failed. However, Egypt stole land from the palestianins (Gaza) and Jordan stole land intended for the Palestinians (the West Bank)- the Arabs gave 0% of the land intended for the Palestinians to the Palestinians!<<

Christians and Muslims owned more than 90% of the land prior to partition in 1946.

Table 2. Survey of Palestine page 566.

View attachment 67832


A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

MYTH
“The majority of the population in Palestine was Arab; therefore, a unitary Arab state should have been created.”

FACT
Partition Map

At the time of the 1947 partition resolution, the Arabs did have a majority in western Palestine as a whole—1.2 million Arabs versus 600,000 Jews. 7But the Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them by the resolution, and in Jerusalem.

Myths & Facts: Partition (Chapter 3) | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[MaryL]

et al,

While looking for something else in the Map Arena, I just happened to stumble on this. I'm sure that all of you have seen this map before. But I thought this was an interesting take on it.

College Politics Textbook Includes Debunked Israel-Palestine ‘Map That Lies’ — and Publisher Responds
Mar. 2, 2016 by Sharona Schwartz • The Blaze •

The McGraw-Hill Education book publisher said Wednesday that it would temporarily stop selling one of its college world politics textbooks so that it could review a previously discredited series of maps about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that was included in its pages.

In October, MSNBC apologized for airing the nearly identical four-map graphic, which it later called “completely wrong.”


The publisher’s decision came after pro-Israel blogger Elder of Ziyon reported Tuesday that the map series appeared on page 123 of McGraw-Hill’s college textbook “Global Politics: Engaging a Complex World.”

The graphic purports to show how Israel has taken Palestinian land over five decades.

​

The map has been widely used by Israel detractors, and has been widely discredited. (Image source: Elder of Ziyon)

“Pending a review, we are placing a hold on sales of the book,” Catherine Mathis, chief communications officer for McGraw-Hill Education, told TheBlaze via email in response to a request for comment.

The book – which retails at online booksellers at $134.21 — presented territories described as “Palestinian land” in green and “Jewish land” in blue in 1946 and 1947 and described the panels as showing the “Palestinian loss of land” over time.

Two more maps dated after Israel’s establishment as an independent state in 1948 denoted the territories as “Palestinian land” and “Israeli land.”

The problem is that Palestinians never actually had sovereignty over any land before Israel withdrew from Gaza and Jericho in 1994 as part of the Oslo Accords.

The blogger who writes under the pen name Elder of Ziyon has taken to calling the graphic “The Map that Lies.” It is often used by detractors of Israel trying to make a case that Israel has over the years vastly expanded its control over Palestinian land.

“The amount of ‘Palestinian land’ hasn’t shrunk — it was created for the first time ever,” Elder of Ziyon observed, referring to Israel’s withdrawal from West Bank and Gaza territories under the Oslo Accords.

Contrary to the McGraw-Hill textbook’s map presentation, prior to the 1967 Six Day War, Jordan controlled the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip. Palestinians living under Jordanian control were Jordanian citizens.

Furthermore, the entire territory comprising where both Jews and Arabs lived under control of the British Mandatory government between World War I and World War II was called “Palestine.” In fact, numerous Jewish initiatives before 1948 used the “Palestine” name, including the Palestine Post (the precursor to today’s Jerusalem Post) and the Palestine Orchestra (the precursor to the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra).
​

I hope McGraw-Hill doesn't take a bath on this.

Most Respectfully,
R

Wasn't Palestine created by the British in 1919 carved out of other Arab states ? Egypt. Lebanon, Syria...Um the phony outrage of land confiscation by Israel continues to amaze me.

 

[P F Tinmore]

>>Land owned by the Jews in 1948 9%
Land owned by the Arabs in 1948 10%
Land owned by the state and leased on a limited basis to people to use: 81%

80% of the land was initially given to the Palestinians and became what is Jordan today (yep, ethnically there is zero deference between the Jordanians and the so called Palestinians). The remaining 20% is what got divided up in the Mandate so that Jews ended up with a mere 10% of the land and the Palestinians 90%. This was not good enough for the Arabs so in 1948 5 Arab countries launched a war to try and wipe out the Jews- they failed. However, Egypt stole land from the palestianins (Gaza) and Jordan stole land intended for the Palestinians (the West Bank)- the Arabs gave 0% of the land intended for the Palestinians to the Palestinians!<<

Christians and Muslims owned more than 90% of the land prior to partition in 1946.

Table 2. Survey of Palestine page 566.

View attachment 67832


A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

MYTH
“The majority of the population in Palestine was Arab; therefore, a unitary Arab state should have been created.”

FACT
Partition Map

At the time of the 1947 partition resolution, the Arabs did have a majority in western Palestine as a whole—1.2 million Arabs versus 600,000 Jews. 7But the Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them by the resolution, and in Jerusalem.

Myths & Facts: Partition (Chapter 3) | Jewish Virtual Library

Interesting that Palestine's international borders are shown on that map.

 

[Hollie]

>>Land owned by the Jews in 1948 9%
Land owned by the Arabs in 1948 10%
Land owned by the state and leased on a limited basis to people to use: 81%

80% of the land was initially given to the Palestinians and became what is Jordan today (yep, ethnically there is zero deference between the Jordanians and the so called Palestinians). The remaining 20% is what got divided up in the Mandate so that Jews ended up with a mere 10% of the land and the Palestinians 90%. This was not good enough for the Arabs so in 1948 5 Arab countries launched a war to try and wipe out the Jews- they failed. However, Egypt stole land from the palestianins (Gaza) and Jordan stole land intended for the Palestinians (the West Bank)- the Arabs gave 0% of the land intended for the Palestinians to the Palestinians!<<

Christians and Muslims owned more than 90% of the land prior to partition in 1946.

Table 2. Survey of Palestine page 566.

View attachment 67832


A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

MYTH
“The majority of the population in Palestine was Arab; therefore, a unitary Arab state should have been created.”

FACT
Partition Map

At the time of the 1947 partition resolution, the Arabs did have a majority in western Palestine as a whole—1.2 million Arabs versus 600,000 Jews. 7But the Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them by the resolution, and in Jerusalem.

Myths & Facts: Partition (Chapter 3) | Jewish Virtual Library

Interesting that Palestine's international borders are shown on that map.

Interesting that you are forever befuddled.

 

[aris2chat]

>>Land owned by the Jews in 1948 9%
Land owned by the Arabs in 1948 10%
Land owned by the state and leased on a limited basis to people to use: 81%

80% of the land was initially given to the Palestinians and became what is Jordan today (yep, ethnically there is zero deference between the Jordanians and the so called Palestinians). The remaining 20% is what got divided up in the Mandate so that Jews ended up with a mere 10% of the land and the Palestinians 90%. This was not good enough for the Arabs so in 1948 5 Arab countries launched a war to try and wipe out the Jews- they failed. However, Egypt stole land from the palestianins (Gaza) and Jordan stole land intended for the Palestinians (the West Bank)- the Arabs gave 0% of the land intended for the Palestinians to the Palestinians!<<

Christians and Muslims owned more than 90% of the land prior to partition in 1946.

Table 2. Survey of Palestine page 566.

View attachment 67832


A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

MYTH
“The majority of the population in Palestine was Arab; therefore, a unitary Arab state should have been created.”

FACT
Partition Map

At the time of the 1947 partition resolution, the Arabs did have a majority in western Palestine as a whole—1.2 million Arabs versus 600,000 Jews. 7But the Jews were a majority in the area allotted to them by the resolution, and in Jerusalem.

Myths & Facts: Partition (Chapter 3) | Jewish Virtual Library

Interesting that Palestine's international borders are shown on that map.

far cry from a proposal and actual owned land or borders.
Just because there is green does not mean the land actually belongs to palestinians.

Arab refused the offer............... they also lost the war(s). Why should they get anything?

The offer was not binding, just a suggestion which the palestinians did not want to consider.

Every time Israel tried, palestinians walked away from an offer of their own state.

Arabs certainly were not interested in giving them their own state or take them in as citizens.

Maps don't show public vs owned land or what was leased or what land arabs lived on for work given, or what was bought for bedouins, or communal land.

Maps before the ceasefire of 1948 are just wish lists and have legal standing

 

[RoccoR]

aris2chat, montelatici, et al,

As has been explained many times to you, the Partition Recommendation was not based solely on "Land Ownership" as the basis for sovereignty; or the allocation for a Jewish State should a Provisional Government exercise self-determination and follow the "Steps Preparatory for Independence."

It was not some Arab based real-estate deal. Nor was it contested in the ways associated with peaceful disputes.

>>Land owned by the Jews in 1948 9%
Land owned by the Arabs in 1948 10%
Land owned by the state and leased on a limited basis to people to use: 81%

80% of the land was initially given to the Palestinians and became what is Jordan today (yep, ethnically there is zero deference between the Jordanians and the so called Palestinians). The remaining 20% is what got divided up in the Mandate so that Jews ended up with a mere 10% of the land and the Palestinians 90%. This was not good enough for the Arabs so in 1948 5 Arab countries launched a war to try and wipe out the Jews- they failed. However, Egypt stole land from the palestianins (Gaza) and Jordan stole land intended for the Palestinians (the West Bank)- the Arabs gave 0% of the land intended for the Palestinians to the Palestinians!<<

Christians and Muslims owned more than 90% of the land prior to partition in 1946.
Table 2. Survey of Palestine page 566.
View attachment 67832
A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

(COMMENT)

While this argument has been made many time before, it never answered the UN Open Topic of the "Question of Palestine."

Just as you have often pointed-out that so many members recognize the 1988 State of Palestine, so it was the case that a majority of the UN Member Nations; including the United States the Soviet Union, France and Australia.

The decision making process was based on the anticipated future needs of the Jewish People (including aspects not considered by the Arab to be of any consequence morally or rationally); and still allocated more than three-quarters of the original territory covered under the Mandate of Palestine to Arab Sovereignty. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (alone) was more that 77%.

The persistent defiance presented by the Arab Nations (Arab League and Arab Higher Committee), including Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia denounced the recommended Partition Plan and voted as a bloc against GA Resolution 181 (II) with the open threat to use force to oppose implementation. This was done prior to any of the Arab subterfuge and nonsense that their acts of aggression were justified to restore order.

Ownership has nothing to do with "sovereignty." Theoretically the Arabs could have owned 100% of the land, and still not effect sovereignty. In fact, this was the case for a 1000 years prior to the Ottoman Empire/Republic of Turkey renouncing all rights and title over the territory in question.

While your argument might be able to convince those that don't understand the way Sovereignty was obtained up through the first half of the 20th Century, but surely, they cannot roll back the clock and merely pretend they have certain rights which they declined, rejected or were ineffective in implementation.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[aris2chat]

aris2chat, montelatici, et al,

As has been explained many times to you, the Partition Recommendation was not based solely on "Land Ownership" as the basis for sovereignty; or the allocation for a Jewish State should a Provisional Government exercise self-determination and follow the "Steps Preparatory for Independence."

It was not some Arab based real-estate deal. Nor was it contested in the ways associated with peaceful disputes.

>>Land owned by the Jews in 1948 9%
Land owned by the Arabs in 1948 10%
Land owned by the state and leased on a limited basis to people to use: 81%

80% of the land was initially given to the Palestinians and became what is Jordan today (yep, ethnically there is zero deference between the Jordanians and the so called Palestinians). The remaining 20% is what got divided up in the Mandate so that Jews ended up with a mere 10% of the land and the Palestinians 90%. This was not good enough for the Arabs so in 1948 5 Arab countries launched a war to try and wipe out the Jews- they failed. However, Egypt stole land from the palestianins (Gaza) and Jordan stole land intended for the Palestinians (the West Bank)- the Arabs gave 0% of the land intended for the Palestinians to the Palestinians!<<

Christians and Muslims owned more than 90% of the land prior to partition in 1946.
Table 2. Survey of Palestine page 566.
View attachment 67832
A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

(COMMENT)

While this argument has been made many time before, it never answered the UN Open Topic of the "Question of Palestine."

Just as you have often pointed-out that so many members recognize the 1988 State of Palestine, so it was the case that a majority of the UN Member Nations; including the United States the Soviet Union, France and Australia.

The decision making process was based on the anticipated future needs of the Jewish People (including aspects not considered by the Arab to be of any consequence morally or rationally); and still allocated more than three-quarters of the original territory covered under the Mandate of Palestine to Arab Sovereignty. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (alone) was more that 77%.

The persistent defiance presented by the Arab Nations (Arab League and Arab Higher Committee), including Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia denounced the recommended Partition Plan and voted as a bloc against GA Resolution 181 (II) with the open threat to use force to oppose implementation. This was done prior to any of the Arab subterfuge and nonsense that their acts of aggression were justified to restore order.

Ownership has nothing to do with "sovereignty." Theoretically the Arabs could have owned 100% of the land, and still not effect sovereignty. In fact, this was the case for a 1000 years prior to the Ottoman Empire/Republic of Turkey renouncing all rights and title over the territory in question.

While your argument might be able to convince those that don't understand the way Sovereignty was obtained up through the first half of the 20th Century, but surely, they cannot roll back the clock and merely pretend they have certain rights which they declined, rejected or were ineffective in implementation.

Most Respectfully,
R

Maybe you can summarize and put in simple words about the land ownership and distribution, I'm sure most did not read "Land Ownership in Palestine, 1880-1948"
http://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

 

[RoccoR]

aris2chat, et al,

The "Appendix 2" was assembled for Alan Dershowitz's book --- "A Case for Israel." Dershowitz was both a Harvard and Yale Law Professor (Developmental History , as well as Constitutional Law and Civil Rights Law). He also acts as an individual political commentator. Most notably, he was a member of the Nelson Mandela Legal Team, way back when.

Like many advocates of a professional calibre, when they makes mistakes of fact, they are usually a big mistake. There is no one correct perspective for the overall controversy. And it is not even correct to think of it in terms of an Israeli-Arab conflict, or a dispute between the Jewish people and that of the Palestinians. There is so much more to it than that. But, most people don't have the peripheral mental capacity to capture the entire landscape of the dispute. The dispute and conflict takes leaps or shifts in direction based on the triggers that stimulates the key players that change over time. On the 60th Anniversary of the Partition Plan [GA/RES/181(II)], a former Ambassador to America and at the time the Chair to the Saudi National Security Council) made a revelation.

Israel's Liaison to Its Neighbors: Saudi Prince Bandar
Aluf Benn Mar 02, 2007

In late 2000 the efforts focused on the Palestinian track. Following the failure of the Camp David summit and the outbreak of the intifada, Bandar tried to pressure Yasser Arafat to accept the Clinton Initiative. In retrospect the prince considers Arafat's failure to accept the offer as criminal.
​

Today, depending on the who you accept as an authority, the thumbnail view of the Arab Palestinian Complaint is that (Once Upon a Time) Israel took control of the territory outlined in Part II. - Boundaries - Section B, Partition Plan (Jewish State) and nearly 50% of the territories allocated to the Part II. - Boundaries - Section A, Partition Plan (Arab State), a total of 15,025,000 dunum. And in process of taking control and defending the Section B territory, the Israelis forcibly evicted several hundred thousand indigenous property owners; denying them the undefined "Right of Return."

aris2chat, montelatici, et al,

As has been explained many times to you, the Partition Recommendation was not based solely on "Land Ownership" as the basis for sovereignty; or the allocation for a Jewish State should a Provisional Government exercise self-determination and follow the "Steps Preparatory for Independence."

It was not some Arab based real-estate deal. Nor was it contested in the ways associated with peaceful disputes.

>>Land owned by the Jews in 1948 9%
Land owned by the Arabs in 1948 10%
Land owned by the state and leased on a limited basis to people to use: 81%

80% of the land was initially given to the Palestinians and became what is Jordan today (yep, ethnically there is zero deference between the Jordanians and the so called Palestinians). The remaining 20% is what got divided up in the Mandate so that Jews ended up with a mere 10% of the land and the Palestinians 90%. This was not good enough for the Arabs so in 1948 5 Arab countries launched a war to try and wipe out the Jews- they failed. However, Egypt stole land from the palestianins (Gaza) and Jordan stole land intended for the Palestinians (the West Bank)- the Arabs gave 0% of the land intended for the Palestinians to the Palestinians!<<

Christians and Muslims owned more than 90% of the land prior to partition in 1946.
Table 2. Survey of Palestine page 566.
View attachment 67832
A Survey of Palestine Volume 2 | Berman Jewish Policy Archive @ Stanford University

(COMMENT)

While this argument has been made many time before, it never answered the UN Open Topic of the "Question of Palestine."

Just as you have often pointed-out that so many members recognize the 1988 State of Palestine, so it was the case that a majority of the UN Member Nations; including the United States the Soviet Union, France and Australia.

The decision making process was based on the anticipated future needs of the Jewish People (including aspects not considered by the Arab to be of any consequence morally or rationally); and still allocated more than three-quarters of the original territory covered under the Mandate of Palestine to Arab Sovereignty. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (alone) was more that 77%.

The persistent defiance presented by the Arab Nations (Arab League and Arab Higher Committee), including Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia denounced the recommended Partition Plan and voted as a bloc against GA Resolution 181 (II) with the open threat to use force to oppose implementation. This was done prior to any of the Arab subterfuge and nonsense that their acts of aggression were justified to restore order.

Ownership has nothing to do with "sovereignty." Theoretically the Arabs could have owned 100% of the land, and still not effect sovereignty. In fact, this was the case for a 1000 years prior to the Ottoman Empire/Republic of Turkey renouncing all rights and title over the territory in question.

While your argument might be able to convince those that don't understand the way Sovereignty was obtained up through the first half of the 20th Century, but surely, they cannot roll back the clock and merely pretend they have certain rights which they declined, rejected or were ineffective in implementation.

Most Respectfully,
R

Maybe you can summarize and put in simple words about the land ownership and distribution, I'm sure most did not read "Land Ownership in Palestine, 1880-1948"
http://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

(COMMENT)

The importance of the land distribution is not in the question of who owns how much of what, but which constituents can make the best contribution to the health and wealth of the economy; providing the best base for government revenue (a concept that was well beyond the understanding of the Arab Palestinian). There is little question that the table that our friend "montelatici" periodically republishes that asserts that the Arabs of Palestine owned so very much more land actually made any significant local, regional, or national contribution to Arab prosperity or nationalism. IN CONTRAST, is is important to note the Survey of Palestine Volume 2 Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, prepared between the middle of December, 1945 (several months after the UN Charter was approved), and the end of January, 1946.

This shows the deposits held by banks and credit cooperative societies at the end of October 1945. Depending if you look at the Urban Population Figures or the Rural Settled Population Figures, you will notice that the Jewish had a slightly marginal majority population in the dense Urban environment; while the Arabs had an overwhelming majority in the Rural environment. YET, the monetary deposits speaks volumes as to which contributes to the economy more. Basically, the claim is that In 1947, the UNSCOP recommended a partition in the territory formerly under Mandate (approved by the General Assembly), giving 55% to the Jewish population (≈ 31% of the EoY 1946 total) and 45% to the Palestinian population (≈ 69% of the EoY 1946 total).

(WHAT DOES THE PICTURE SAY?)

​

The POINT is that you cannot merely judge the entire case on one aspect; but on the broader view. In WWII, the phrase was "The Big Picture." And in this case, The Big Picture looks at the Arab for the entire region and compares their success to that of the very small --- minority Jewish Population and their successes and their human development.

The "Big Picture" looks as the notion that, in democracies (and generally we are not talking about Arab League Nations), the greatest concern is that the majority will tyrannise and exploit diverse smaller interests and the minorities (in this case the Jewish Population). The Big Picture and duty of the Allied Powers is to INSURE that rights of the Jewish Minority that have suffered under the tyranny of Oppressors, worldwide, are not made subject public vote merely to please an Arab Majority. It is as Friedrich Nietzsche has suggested, the political function of the Allied Powers (having defeated the Axis Oppressors) to protect the rights of the Jewish Minority. It is the Functional duty and fiduciary responsibility explicitly and precisely to protect the Jewish minority from oppression by the Arab majorities and former allies of the Axis Powers. Remembering that the smallest minority on Earth --- even the Jewish People are individuals having the right of self-determination and deserving the protection of the Oppression of Regional Arab Islamic radicalism and terrorist such as that exhibited by the Hostile Arab Palestinian.

It is beyond the hand of the Majority Controlled UN subcommittees that selectively attempt to focus upon Israel as:

Central African Republic (often there are armed clashes between muslims and christians)
Libya (civil war)
Nigeria (war against islamist militants)
Somalia (war against al-Shabaab islamist militants)
​

It is just as important that the Allied Powers protect the Jewish Minority from the oppression of the Selective enforcement by the UN -- while those same spineless UN Commissions make no critical condemnations of:

HAMAS
Quds Force
Palestinian Islamic Jihad
Hezbollah Network
Hezb-e-Islami Gulbuddin (HIG) (since 1977)
Hezb-e Islami Khalis (HIK) (since 1979)
​

And this is just a sample of the Big Picture which most of the Arab Middle East Community uses it influence to oppose.

It would be interesting for the pro-Arab Palestinians to point out the Arab or Islamic State in the Region which is more successful, productive and development than the Israel which has been under continuous assault by Arab and Islamic Forces, Jihadist, Islamic Radicals, Terrorists and other Arab Asymmetric Anti-Semitic activities.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Please try not to twist the truth too much.

Interesting that Palestine's international borders are shown on that map.

(COMMENT)

This is a Map on the Recommendation to Partition. Palestine in this case is the one defined by the Palestine Order in Council. At the time of this Map, the British were still the Mandatory.

Don't read more into this then is there.

Most Respectfully,
R