I'm not asking you to go down any rabbit hole, Cern. I merely responded to your reply because what you said was not accurate. In response to your claim that I have a concept about witches and witchcraft that belong in a fantasy novel, I have to tell you that this isn't my concept. What I've given you is the testimonies of people who have prayed for people in witchcraft who have come under attack through spells, hexes, psychic attacks, etc. You say that you have never been in a magickal battle with anyone.
Have you ever been under a psychic attack from another witch? Have you ever been the recipient of someone trying to harm you through witchcraft? Have you ever tried to harm anyone by using a spell to retaliate in response to something that someone did to you? You need not answer those questions I am merely clarifying what I meant in my recounting the testimony of a doctor who ministered to people in a hospital where she witnessed and encountered patients who had come under such an attack.
In fact, there is a former high level Witch named Bill Schnoebelen who wrote an entire book about Wicca. It's called Wicca, Satan's little lie and is available online. Bill states that in his experience as a witch this was a constant problem. He didn't call them magickal battles. He called them psychic attacks / pyschic wars. In his book Bill writes about his coven and the trouble of Witches covens in psychic wars that plagued his city:
But we were never really at peace. We did all the right things and tried to help our people grow, but they never seemed fulfilled either. They acted happy, but their eyes were dark and hollow. They said they were fulfilled but their lives denied it. We were the ONLY married couple in Wicca that didn't get divorced!
Sadly, a majority of the people we tried to help got worse! Many of them became either so filled with their own egos that they could not relate to anyone else or they sank into the mire of drugs or liquor. To or three went quite insane!
in Milwaukee, we had psychic wars between groups. Witches were shooting at each other in the streets because of adultery. Curses were filling the air like mosquitos on a hot Wisconsin night!
Pagans like to make fun of Catholics because of all the wars they started, but the only difference between the Pagans and the Catholics is that the Pagans never ran a government and had the power to raise armies.
I used to read THE GREEN EGG, Tim Zell's Neo-Pagan magazine. Almost every issue contained a vicious feud in the letter columns.
Why? Because you are dealing with sinful, fallen human beings,that's why! God says the human heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things (Jeremiah 17:9).
You may not call yourself a Satanist, but if you have not made Jesus Christ your Lord and Master,then Satan is your lord and master. We learned this the hard way! - Bill Schoenbelen Wicca Satan's little White Lie
So there you have it. One man who was the head of a coven in Wisconsin and a very powerful witch who gave his life to Jesus Christ and says that these feuds between witches /covens was a major problem.
Well, I can only speak fro my personal experience, 20 years as a wytch. Have I ever tried to harm anyone? Nope. Not that I haven't been tempted. I have just never been in a situation in which it was worth it. Have you, in all your studies, ever heard of the Witch's Rede? There are two lines that are important, in regards to this discussion:
"Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.", and "These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will'"
Now, a lot of your bubblegum, fluffy-bununy witches will insisthat this is a warning to never hurt anyone. However, that is simply not the case. The finally line is pretty self-explanatory - if you are not hurting anyone, you do you. It's all good. Okay. However, remember when I said that humans are notoriously short-sighted? Well, that is pretty much true of all of us.n So, here is the question: How do you know? How do you know if an action you take, whether magickal, or mundane (and, no, the Rede is
not restricted to only magickal actions; it is a guide for
every decision that a wytch ever makes), is going to hurt someone one? The simple answer is, you can't. Oh! You can be certain about the immediate effects of any choice, but what about the longer effects, what about the effect it has on peripheral individuals that you didn't think of, or possibly know about? So, does this mean that a wytch can never do anything?
This is where the second line comes into play - the 'three-fold law". The three-fold law is pretty straight forward. Anything you do, whether for good, or for ill,
will come back to you three times over. The Hindus called it Kharma. Even the Jews have a version of it, although they expand it to 7-fold. But, it's a pretty universal concept. So, now the question becomes, if what I want to do worth the consequences? If it is, go for it. Just be aware that you made a choice, and what comes next is entirely on you. If it isn't, then don't.
This brings us back to your question have I ever harmed anyone. I have, in 30 years, only
intentionally harmed one person, and that was indirectly. And I paid the price for it. Willingly. Now, have I unintentionally harmed anyone? Possibly. Like I said, my ability to follow my actions to the results of every single person that those actions will ever have an effect on is limited. See, contrary to what you may believe, witchcraft isn't about power. It is about balance, and personal responsibility.
I'd like to ask you a two part question about the Witch's Rede before you go. You've asked me quite a few questions (4 or 5 at the beginning of our dialogue) and then the question about my being a bible literalist. So if you would allow me to ask you the two part question about the Witch's Rede that you mentioned is a part of your belief system, I believe that would be fair.
Let me know. Thank you.
Ask away.
Thank you. I am going to quote your definition of the Witch's Rede first. Here you say:
Have you, in all your studies, ever heard of the Witch's Rede? There are two lines that are important, in regards to this discussion:
"Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.", and "These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will'"
Now, a lot of your bubblegum, fluffy-bununy witches will insist that this is a warning to never hurt anyone. However, that is simply not the case. The finally line is pretty self-explanatory - if you are not hurting anyone, you do you. It's all good. Okay. However, remember when I said that humans are notoriously short-sighted? Well, that is pretty much true of all of us.n So, here is the question: How do you know? How do you know if an action you take, whether magickal, or mundane (and, no, the Rede is
not restricted to only magickal actions; it is a guide for
every decision that a wytch ever makes), is going to hurt someone one? The simple answer is, you can't. Oh! You can be certain about the immediate effects of any choice, but what about the longer effects, what about the effect it has on peripheral individuals that you didn't think of, or possibly know about? So, does this mean that a wytch can never do anything?
___________
Here is part one of my question,Cern. The Witch's Rede you quote clearly states do no harm. You wrote:
"These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will'"
First of all, the Thou Shalt Not's of the Bible are not there because God wants to make our lives miserable. The commandments of God are there to protect us and keep us from harm. So when God gave commands to his children against the Pagan use of blood-letting it was with very good reason. God knew that the Pagans were practicing blood sacrifice of some sort and that those practices led to their desire to sacrifice their own children to Molech. Evil leads people in one direction. To darker and darker practices / actions.
The word bloodlust describes the current environment of America and this nation is full of witchcraft and Baal worship of many kinds. How can a Pagan base their religion on Harm no one, do what ye will? The second part of that motto comes from Aleister Crowley whose own doctrines are mixed with Wicca through Gerald Gardner and it is the creed of Satanists. That they do what they will, whatever they want to do, that they can do. Right? And Wicca is using the same creed in the second half of that statement as you can see.
Actually you have that backwards. Crowley took cosmology from a mishmash of Wicca, Totemic Druidism, and Teutonic high magick. It was pretty unintelligible. Hardly surprising, when one understands that Crowley suffered from syphilis, and his brain was pretty much mush by the time he died. Further Gerald Gardner was not a Satanist. You are confusing him with Anton LeVay. And LeVay did make "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" his credo, which is rather the problem with organised Satanism - it is a wholly hedonistic belief system that is, ultimately self-destructive. This is because Levay's "law' completely discounts the most important part. It would be like someone suggesting that the Golden Rule is destructive, by only quoting the "Do unto others" part, while completely ignoring the most important part.
Now how can you harm none and still do what you will do when considering that Pagan's participate in blood sacrifice of animals (and humans in some covens), use their spells, hexes, incantations to harm others (not all but some do) or bring about an outcome that is of their own will over someone else's will.
First, again you have a view of pagans that rarely exists outside of the movies. I have been a pagan for 30 years, have attended over 3,000 public, and private rituals, have led more than 700, and never
once did any of those rituals involve an actual sacrifice of any kind (either animal, or otherwise). Now, this is not to say that animal sacrifice was
never a part of ritual. It also used to be part of Judeao/Christian ritual. They outgrew it. As far as spells to do harm, well, that is rather the point of the Three-Fold law. Are there wytches who actively try to harm others? Sure. But are you seriously suggesting that the entire religion should be judged on the basis of a few bad actors? Weren't you the one who admonished me, and asked me not to judge
your religion on the behaviour of your bad actors?
[Isn't the killing of an animal or human during a ritual doing harm? Isn't casting a spell to cause someone to get into a car accident or die doing harm? Again, this is not about you but about being a Pagan and what some people who are Pagans and involved in witchcraft do.
Is burning the Quran, and effigies of Muslims the loving act of Christianity? Is picketing funerals, and screaming "***" at the attendees Christian? See the point? Unless you want me to judge
your religion by the absolute worst that people do in the name of your religion, I would ask that you not do the same.
[What about the witch that does none of these things. They are pantheists which believe that plants, rocks and animals are just as deserving of respect as humans. Is that possible to do no harm? Jain monks carry a broom wherever they walk sweeping the ground in front of them so they won't step on an ant. What if the broom they are using crushes the ant and it dies anyway? Their broom killed the ant and now they are stuck worrying about the "karma" they will get from that one act. Due to their belief in reincarnation (another lie).
You're right. They are. I have killed insects, and even some vermin. And you know what? I'm pretty okay with whatever karma I may garner from such a minor act. Your own Bible says "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you," I'm pretty sure that your God does not expect you to be flawless in your attempts to live your life, and whatever consequences await you for whatever minor negative acts you have committed in your life are not really going to be all that terrible? Aren't you equally certain of that?
[What about the illegal drugs that witches use? The use of LSD, hashish, which are used often in the higher degrees, for ritual purposes according to former witches who are now followers of Jesus Christ?
What about the lies from Wiccan leaders who have denied the use of drugs even though there are stories such as one priestess who was kicked out of one of (former Witch) Bill Schoenbelen's covens because it was determined that she was a Narc turning in people inside the coven for using drugs. Law abiding citizens? Do not harm yet do what you will? It's a contradiction of the highest order.
Ahhh...now you are talking about
legal not
harmful. There is a difference. There is nothing in the Rede that requires a wytch to always follow the laws of the land. In fact, paganism encourages its adherents to place
ethical above
legal every time. I rarely, if ever, worry about legal. I'm much more interested in ethical.
[My second question to you is about the 3 fold law. You say:
The finally line is pretty self-explanatory - if you are not hurting anyone, you do you. It's all good. Okay. However, remember when I said that humans are notoriously short-sighted? Well, that is pretty much true of all of us.n So, here is the question: How do you know? How do you know if an action you take, whether magickal, or mundane (and, no, the Rede is not restricted to only magickal actions; it is a guide for every decision that a wytch ever makes), is going to hurt someone one? The simple answer is, you can't. Oh! You can be certain about the immediate effects of any choice, but what about the longer effects, what about the effect it has on peripheral individuals that you didn't think of, or possibly know about? So, does this mean that a wytch can never do anything?
This is where the second line comes into play - the 'three-fold law". The three-fold law is pretty straight forward. Anything you do, whether for good, or for ill, will come back to you three times over. The Hindus called it Kharma. Even the Jews have a version of it, although they expand it to 7-fold. But, it's a pretty universal concept. So, now the question becomes, if what I want to do worth the consequences? If it is, go for it. Just be aware that you made a choice, and what comes next is entirely on you. If it isn't, then don't. - end quote
_____
Let's look at this three fold law, Cern. Anything you do, whether good, or for ill, will come back to you three times over. You then say, now the question becomes, is what I want to do worth the consequences? If it is, go for it. What about do no harm? The three fold law pretty much suspends it while acting in revenge 3 times greater than the harm that was inflicted on said witch. Correct? And according to this 3 fold law the witch is justified in his or her actions so long as they accept what will come back on them. Interesting. Harm none? How do you reconcile this one? You cannot.
Okay. First of all, you are grossly misunderstanding the nature of the universe. It's not like there is some "karmic scorekeeper" out there, sending out armies of vengeance takers on people who "break the rules". It is simply the nature of the universe. If you ump off the roof of a building screaming, "Watch me fly!!!", and you fall to the ground, and break your arm, is it because the Law of Gravity sought to exact its revenge upon you for daring to challenge is? No. It is just the nature of the universe - things fall down and go boom. If you choose to try to pretend that this isn't so, you suffer the consequences. The Law of Reciprocity is no different. "For every action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction". "An it harm none, do as thou wilt" is not some grand command of the cosmos that it is required to obey. Rather, it is a warning
to people that, if they fail to consider the harm that they do, then we live in a universe of reciprocity, and pretending otherwise
will have consequences.
I chose to ignore the rest, as you went from asking questions to preaching. I will gladly ask any
honest questions that you have concerning my beliefs. I will not waste my time being preached at. As I have repeatedly pointed out, I am 50. *******. years old. I made my theological choices a long time ago, and I am more than willing to accept any consequences, should I have chosen wrong. I don't need, nor appreciate someone blathering at me about my choice, as if they have some new thing to say that I have never heard, nor considered, before.
