Our founding fathers were not conservative

Poli_Sigh is the far left equivalent to the far right bigrebnc: both make silly statements.

Poli, you do know that to be a county official in the colony of Virginia, the official was also a member of the vestry of his local Church of England parish?

Poli, you do know that in the long run the only ones who were assuredly not believers in Jesus Christ as Living God and Savior were Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and Ethan Allan? And George Washington and James Madison, weak Christians I agree, both attended services, though Washington refused to take communion after challenged by his parish priest to do so. John Adams was a believer in some form of Unitarian.

I am always astounded at how much the far right and the far left want to revise history.

and starkey is a know it all that doesn't know shit. He's just a little troll that skims the surface and acts as if it's the whole ball of wax. He reminds me of norm peterson on cheers.

:lol: That is the best you can do? Look it all up and come back and tell me I am wrong. You can't because every bit of it is true. You are the poly_sigh of the far wack right, indeed.:lol:
 
So you are wrong, bigrebnc. I rarely read your posted material because it is often twisted.

Here's a question for you on bi-partisanship: which pieces of major legislation did Hamilton, Madison, and Jefferson build a consensus so they could pass?

Look it up, and you will see that learning is fun.

So what you are saying is that you see my moniker and start blathering? Why do you respond to my replies if you don't read them?
You are the biggest liar here at the USMB and that even surrpasses truth don't matter and rdean.
 
Poli_Sigh is the far left equivalent to the far right bigrebnc: both make silly statements.

Poli, you do know that to be a county official in the colony of Virginia, the official was also a member of the vestry of his local Church of England parish?

Poli, you do know that in the long run the only ones who were assuredly not believers in Jesus Christ as Living God and Savior were Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and Ethan Allan? And George Washington and James Madison, weak Christians I agree, both attended services, though Washington refused to take communion after challenged by his parish priest to do so. John Adams was a believer in some form of Unitarian.

I am always astounded at how much the far right and the far left want to revise history.

and starkey is a know it all that doesn't know shit. He's just a little troll that skims the surface and acts as if it's the whole ball of wax. He reminds me of norm peterson on cheers.

:lol: That is the best you can do? Look it all up and come back and tell me I am wrong. You can't because every bit of it is true. You are the poly_sigh of the far wack right, indeed.:lol:

You're just a little troll. I have been told stuff about you from others boards you troll at. You come here to piss people off.
 
How many at the Constitutional convention refused to sign the Constitution because there wasn't any individual bill of rights?

Good point...but it makes my case of the States not being the ones who insisted on the Bill of Rights.

Really? The fact that sixteen of the delegates to the Constitutional Convention - who were sent there as representatives of their states - refused to sign the Constitution somehow proves in your mind that the states which those men represented weren't insisting on the Bill of Rights? How about the fact that several of the states, including Massachusetts, New York, and Virginia, would only agree to ratify the Constitution if they could send recommendations for amendments along with the ratification documents, in order to pressure the government into adding a Bill of Rights? Does that also "make your case that the states" weren't insisting on a Bill of Rights?
 
So you are wrong, bigrebnc. I rarely read your posted material because it is often twisted.

Here's a question for you on bi-partisanship: which pieces of major legislation did Hamilton, Madison, and Jefferson build a consensus so they could pass?

Look it up, and you will see that learning is fun.

So what you are saying is that you see my moniker and start blathering? Why do you respond to my replies if you don't read them?
You are the biggest liar here at the USMB and that even surrpasses truth don't matter and rdean.

Showing your mistakes every time is not lying, bigrebnc. :lol:
 
and starkey is a know it all that doesn't know shit. He's just a little troll that skims the surface and acts as if it's the whole ball of wax. He reminds me of norm peterson on cheers.

:lol: That is the best you can do? Look it all up and come back and tell me I am wrong. You can't because every bit of it is true. You are the poly_sigh of the far wack right, indeed.:lol:

You're just a little troll. I have been told stuff about you from others boards you troll at. You come here to piss people off.

Tell me the other boards and the monikers I supposedly used and I will go check them out. Oh, that's right, you can't because . . . you are lying again. :lol:
 
Ah yes that Bill of Rights that so many of us worship second only to the Ten Commandments.

Fat lot of good it did for the slaves, eh?

Now gee was that conservative hypocracy or liberal hypocracy?

Or does that whole question of what the floundering fathers were philosophically simply not make sense if we're applying today's lingusitic dislogic to it?

You are babbling again. Where wasn't there slavery back then? Who imprisoned the slaves in the first place? Were they floundering too? How many Empires throughout History, utilized slavery? You need to study more on the sentiments of our founders about the issue. You might be pleasantly surprised by more than a few.

Constitutional Topic: Slavery

[SNIP]

There was no great movement in America to abolish slavery in the 1780's, when the Constitutional Convention met. To be sure, there were opponents of slavery, on a philosophical level, but the abolition movement did not appear until the 1830's, when the American Anti-Slavery Society was founded with William Lloyd Garrison writing the organization's nascent statement of principles. Prior to the Convention in 1787, many "Founding Fathers" expressed opinions that condemned slavery.

John Jay, great supporter of the Constitution after its creation and an author of The Federalist wrote in 1786, "It is much to be wished that slavery may be abolished. The honour of the States, as well as justice and humanity, in my opinion, loudly call upon them to emancipate these unhappy people. To contend for our own liberty, and to deny that blessing to others, involves an inconsistency not to be excused."

Oliver Ellsworth, one of the signers of the Constitution wrote, a few months after the Convention adjourned, "All good men wish the entire abolition of slavery, as soon as it can take place with safety to the public, and for the lasting good of the present wretched race of slaves."
Patrick Henry, the great Virginian patriot, refused to attend the Convention because he "smelt a rat," was outspoken on the issue, despite his citizenship in a slave state. In 1773, he wrote, "I believe a time will come when an opportunity will be offered to abolish this lamentable evil. Everything we do is to improve it, if it happens in our day; if not, let us transmit to our descendants, together with our slaves, a pity for their unhappy lot and an abhorrence of slavery."

Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, which, famously, declares that "all men are created equal," wrote, "There must doubtless be an unhappy influence on the manners of our people produced by the existence of slavery among us. The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it; for man is an imitative animal. This quality is the germ of all education in him." Alas, like many Southerners, Jefferson held slaves, as many as 223 at some points in his life. His family sold his slaves after his death, in an effort to relieve the debt he left his estate in.

In a letter to the Marquis de Lafayette, George Washington wrote, "[Y]our late purchase of an estate in the colony of Cayenne, with a view to emancipating the slaves on it, is a generous and noble proof of your humanity. Would to God a like spirit would diffuse itself generally into the minds of the people of this country; but I despair of seeing it." Washington and his wife held over 300 slaves. He wrote in his will that he'd wished to free his slaves, but that because of intermarriage between his and Martha's slaves, he feared the break-up of families should only his slaves be freed. He directed that his slaves be freed upon her death. His will provided for the continued care of all slaves, paid for from his estate.

The great American scientist and publisher Benjamin Franklin held several slaves during his lifetime. He willed one of them be freed upon his death, but Franklin outlived him. In 1789, he said, "Slavery is such an atrocious debasement of human nature, that its very extirpation, if not performed with solicitous care, may sometimes open a source of serious evils."

[/SNIP]

It's a very good write. It goes on to tell how slavery was codified in the Constitution:

[SNIP]

The Constitution has often been called a living tribute to the art of compromise. In the slavery question, this can be seen most clearly. The Convention had representatives from every corner of the United States, including, of course, the South, where slavery was most pronounced. Slavery, in fact, was the backbone of the primary industry of the South, and it was accepted as a given that agriculture in the South without slave labor was not possible. Though slaves were not cheap by any measure, they were cheaper than hiring someone to do the same work. The cultivation of rice, cotton, and tobacco required slaves to work the fields from dawn to dusk. If the nation did not guarantee the continuation of slavery to the South, it was questioned whether they would form their own nation.

Slavery is seen in the Constitution in a few key places. The first is in the Enumeration Clause, where representatives are apportioned. Each state is given a number of representatives based on its population - in that population, slaves, called "other persons," are counted as three-fifths of a whole person. This compromise was hard-fought, with Northerners wishing that slaves, legally property, be uncounted, much as mules and horses are uncounted. Southerners, however, well aware of the high proportion of slaves to the total population in their states, wanted them counted as whole persons despite their legal status. The three-fifths number was a ratio used by the Congress in contemporary legislation and was agreed upon with little debate.

In Article 1, Section 9, Congress is limited, expressly, from prohibiting the "Importation" of slaves, before 1808. The slave trade was a bone of contention for many, with some who supported slavery abhorring the slave trade. The 1808 date, a compromise of 20 years, allowed the slave trade to continue, but placed a date-certain on its survival. Congress eventually passed a law outlawing the slave trade that became effective on January 1, 1808.

The Fugitive Slave Clause is the last mention. In it, a problem that slave states had with extradition of escaped slaves was resolved. The laws of one state, the clause says, cannot excuse a person from "Service or Labour" in another state. The clause expressly requires that the state in which an escapee is found deliver the slave to the state he escaped from "on Claim of the Party."

It has been said that the seeds of the Civil War, which was fought, despite revisionist theory to the contrary, over the issue of slavery, were sown in the compromises of the Constitution on the issue. This is probably true. Slavery, which was started in violence in the kidnapping, shipment, and commerce of human chattel, needed violence to bring it to an end. After the devastation of the Revolutionary War and the unrest in the U.S. under the Articles, a time of peace and recovery was needed to strengthen the nation to a point where it could survive a civil war. The greatest tragedy is that in the nearly 100 years between the start of the Revolutionary War and the end of the Civil War, millions of slaves served, suffered, and died so that the nation could prosper.
 
:lol: That is the best you can do? Look it all up and come back and tell me I am wrong. You can't because every bit of it is true. You are the poly_sigh of the far wack right, indeed.:lol:

You're just a little troll. I have been told stuff about you from others boards you troll at. You come here to piss people off.

Tell me the other boards and the monikers I supposedly used and I will go check them out. Oh, that's right, you can't because . . . you are lying again. :lol:

That information I don't have, because I did not ask. If itas a lie it was told to me. But through your actions here I have know doubt the infomation that was given to me is true.

By the way I thouight you said you didn't read what I posted?
 
more of Samuel Adams christian vision ;)

"together with our thanksgiving, earnest Supplication to God is hereby recommended for the forgiveness of our Sins which have rendered us unworthy of the least of his Mercies ; and that by the sanctifying influence of his Spirit, our hearts and manners may be corrected, and we become a reformed and happy People—That he would direct and prosper the Administration of the Government of the United States, and of this and the other States in the Union. That he would still afford his Blessings on our Trade, Agriculture, Fisheries and all the labours of our hands. That he would smile upon our University, and all Seminaries of Learning—That Tyranny and Usurpation may everywhere come to an end—That the Nations who are contending for true liberty may still be succeeded by his Almighty aid—That every Nation and Society of Men may be inspired with the knowledge and feeling of their natural and just rights, and enabled to form such systems of Civil Government as shall be fully adopted to promote and establish their Social Security and Happiness—And, finally, that in the course of God’s Holy Providence, the great Family of Mankind may bow to the sceptre of the Prince of Peace so that mutual Friendship and Harmony may universally prevail."
 
So you are wrong, bigrebnc. I rarely read your posted material because it is often twisted.

Here's a question for you on bi-partisanship: which pieces of major legislation did Hamilton, Madison, and Jefferson build a consensus so they could pass?

Look it up, and you will see that learning is fun.

So what you are saying is that you see my moniker and start blathering? Why do you respond to my replies if you don't read them?
You are the biggest liar here at the USMB and that even surrpasses truth don't matter and rdean.

Showing your mistakes every time is not lying, bigrebnc. :lol:

How can you show my mistakes if you do't read my post's? Thanks jake you have just admitted to being a liar.
 
Nor were any of them followers of Christianity. But what the hay since when has the truth set anyone free in this country?

Excuse me? NONE of the Founding Fathers were Christians? Seriously?

Let's examine this outrageous claim, shall we? Our nation can be said to have three major foundational documents: the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the US Constitution. Collectively, those three documents have 143 signatures (although obviously some of the signatories are on more than one document): 56 on the Declaration, 48 on the Articles, and 39 on the Constitution. In addition, there were 16 delegates to the Constitutional Convention who did not sign, but who are certainly still considered "Founding Fathers".

Now then. Of these signatories, over half were parishioners of the Episcopalian Church, which most definitely is Christian in doctrine; the rest break down into Unitarians/Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and even some Catholics and Quakers. Are you seriously suggesting that every single one of our Founding Fathers attended churches their entire lives without believing in the teachings of those churches, merely for the purpose of PRETENDING to those beliefs? You are going to tell me that during the VERY religious times of the American Colonial period, when people were actually banished from states or even executed due to their beliefs, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the most respected men in the country, those chosen by their neighbors to represent them in the forming of the new government, somehow all managed to be atheists or non-Christians?
 
Nor were any of them followers of Christianity. But what the hay since when has the truth set anyone free in this country?

Ennumerating the Founding Fathers
The three major foundational documents of the United States of America are the Declaration of Independence (July 1776), the Articles of Confederation (drafted 1777, ratified 1781) and the Constitution of the United States of America (1789). There are a total of 143 signatures on these documents, representing 118 different signers. (Some individuals signed more than one document.)

There were 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence. There were 48 signers of the Articles of Confederation. All 55 delegates who participated in the Constitutional Convention of 1787 are regarded as Founding Fathers, in fact, they are often regarded as the Founding Fathers because it is this group that actually debated, drafted and signed the U.S. Constitution, which is the basis for the country's political and legal system. Only 39 delegates actually signed the document, however, meaning there were 16 non-signing delegates - individuals who were Constitutional Convention delegates but were not signers of the Constitution.

There were 95 Senators and Representatives in the First Federal Congress. If one combines the total number of signatures on the Declaration, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution with the non-signing Constitutional Convention delegates, and then adds to that sum the number of congressmen in the First Federal Congress, one obtains a total of 238 "slots" or "positions" in these groups which one can classify as "Founding Fathers" of the United States. Because 40 individuals had multiple roles (they signed multiple documents and/or also served in the First Federal Congress), there are 204 unique individuals in this group of "Founding Fathers." These are the people who did one or more of the following:

- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

The religious affiliations of these individuals are summarized below. Obviously this is a very restrictive set of names, and does not include everyone who could be considered an "American Founding Father." But most of the major figures that people generally think of in this context are included using these criteria, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, John Hancock, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and more.


http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Great minds think alike. ;)
 
You're just a little troll. I have been told stuff about you from others boards you troll at. You come here to piss people off.

Tell me the other boards and the monikers I supposedly used and I will go check them out. Oh, that's right, you can't because . . . you are lying again. :lol:

That information I don't have, because I did not ask. If itas a lie it was told to me. But through your actions here I have know doubt the infomation that was given to me is true.

By the way I thouight you said you didn't read what I posted?

Go back and see what I said that I did not read in your posts. And, yes, someone(s) told you wrong. I post here because I love kicking the crap out of your types. Why are you mad that I help you learn? :lol:
 
So what you are saying is that you see my moniker and start blathering? Why do you respond to my replies if you don't read them?
You are the biggest liar here at the USMB and that even surrpasses truth don't matter and rdean.

Showing your mistakes every time is not lying, bigrebnc. :lol:

How can you show my mistakes if you do't read my post's? Thanks jake you have just admitted to being a liar.

Go back and read what I wrote about your posts. Read it carefully. You truly do not comprehend what others write.
 
Showing your mistakes every time is not lying, bigrebnc. :lol:

How can you show my mistakes if you do't read my post's? Thanks jake you have just admitted to being a liar.

Go back and read what I wrote about your posts. Read it carefully. You truly do not comprehend what others write.

OH I'm sorry jake you rarely read my post but you somehow respond to every one I make.

"So you are wrong, bigrebnc. I rarely read your posted material because it is often twisted."
 
I read what you write personally, but I don't read much of the information that you cite or watch the videos. Why? The ones I have seen are twisted to one side or another. I read what you write carefully, so I can watch the evolution of you here. You write much better than several months ago, your argumentative skills have improved slightly, but you still take things much too personally. And your bias outweights your ability to evaluate., Keep it up, though; there is hope for you.
 
15th post
I read what you write personally, but I don't read much of the information that you cite or watch the videos. Why? The ones I have seen are twisted to one side or another. I read what you write carefully, so I can watch the evolution of you here. You write much better than several months ago, your argumentative skills have improved slightly, but you still take things much too personally. And your bias outweights your ability to evaluate., Keep it up, though; there is hope for you.

Watch my evolution? Junior when I am dead and gone and if you lived 100 more years I will still be light years ahead of you. I'm still waiting on you to disprove any of our disargeements.

Name one.
 
bigrebnc, I understand your angst. Remember that I am the one who taught you graphs, charts, and percentages. One? You have never one won in which we have disagreed, ever.

You still have a very long way to go.
 
bigrebnc, I understand your angst. Remember that I am the one who taught you graphs, charts, and percentages. One? You have never one won in which we have disagreed, ever.

You still have a very long way to go.

LOL!

Standard fare from JokeyFakey. ALWAYS more than willing to claim that he is the one who has "taught" the other guy and "won" every debate even though there's never a speck of truth in such claims.

Jokey makes that same dishonest claim to essentially everyone who disagrees with his vapid bullshit.

Hell. Jokey still doesn't grasp that NObody buys the shit he slings about his supposedly being a "Republican."

It's clinical, but quite amusing in its way.
 
bigrebnc, I understand your angst. Remember that I am the one who taught you graphs, charts, and percentages. One? You have never one won in which we have disagreed, ever.

You still have a very long way to go.

My angst? LOL holy shit junior I consider you a joke. You're nothing to me but a little troll that I get to respond to me at my whime. You're my little play toy.

Let's highlight this comment as the most stupidest comment I think you have ever made

Remember that I am the one who taught you graphs, charts, and percentages.

You have never one won in which we have disagreed, ever.

Don't just say you have show the topic and the post.
 

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