Our founding fathers were not conservative

[JakeStarkey]

Of course I knew the answer. Many of us are college graduates, and many of the others have read for years on the subject. You are a latecomer to the subject. That is fine. I am glad that you are reading.

 

[Intense]

The Federalist Papers were Publications that Ran in News Papers.

And that was the debate format the framers of the Constitution chose.

If anything you proved one thing, you're an idiot.

True, we both know that. Still, it doesn't change the fact that you misspoke, The Federalist Papers were Published Articles, not a two sided Debate. You were wrong in your statement. You continue to validate that you are a horses ass. Try treating people with respect, and you will get it in return. Politics is secondary to your offensiveness and childishness.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Of course I knew the answer. Many of us are college graduates, and many of the others have read for years on the subject. You are a latecomer to the subject. That is fine. I am glad that you are reading.

sure you did. You may have had an argument to stand on if you had posted what you did before I posted the link and information. There really wasn't a need for you to add to the same information unless there was something that wasn't poted. Thats why I say you did not know the answer until after I posted the link.

 

[Intense]

The signers of the Constitution were representives of their states.

1) The signers of the Constitution were not the ones insisting on a Bill of Rights.

2) Everyone lived in one State or another, you're arguing coincidence.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

I understand you're a flatulent moron.

They were the voice of their state. So yes the states did in fact insist on the bill of rights.

See above as to why you are a bona fide idiot.

Refusing to Ratify The Constitution until the Bill Of Rights was added had nothing to with it. My God, OMG!!! You are so right, you have never bee more right! Call a Press Conference! Asshole.

 

[Intense]

How many at the Constitutional convention refused to sign the Constitution because there wasn't any individual bill of rights?

Good point...but it makes my case of the States not being the ones who insisted on the Bill of Rights.

You need to stop mixing medications.

 

[JakeStarkey]

So you are wrong, bigrebnc. I rarely read your posted material because it is often twisted.

Here's a question for you on bi-partisanship: which pieces of major legislation did Hamilton, Madison, and Jefferson build a consensus so they could pass?

Look it up, and you will see that learning is fun.

 

[Intense]

Nor were any of them followers of Christianity. But what the hay since when has the truth set anyone free in this country?

Ennumerating the Founding Fathers
The three major foundational documents of the United States of America are the Declaration of Independence (July 1776), the Articles of Confederation (drafted 1777, ratified 1781) and the Constitution of the United States of America (1789). There are a total of 143 signatures on these documents, representing 118 different signers. (Some individuals signed more than one document.)

There were 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence. There were 48 signers of the Articles of Confederation. All 55 delegates who participated in the Constitutional Convention of 1787 are regarded as Founding Fathers, in fact, they are often regarded as the Founding Fathers because it is this group that actually debated, drafted and signed the U.S. Constitution, which is the basis for the country's political and legal system. Only 39 delegates actually signed the document, however, meaning there were 16 non-signing delegates - individuals who were Constitutional Convention delegates but were not signers of the Constitution.

There were 95 Senators and Representatives in the First Federal Congress. If one combines the total number of signatures on the Declaration, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution with the non-signing Constitutional Convention delegates, and then adds to that sum the number of congressmen in the First Federal Congress, one obtains a total of 238 "slots" or "positions" in these groups which one can classify as "Founding Fathers" of the United States. Because 40 individuals had multiple roles (they signed multiple documents and/or also served in the First Federal Congress), there are 204 unique individuals in this group of "Founding Fathers." These are the people who did one or more of the following:

- signed the Declaration of Independence
- signed the Articles of Confederation
- attended the Constitutional Convention of 1787
- signed the Constitution of the United States of America
- served as Senators in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)
- served as U.S. Representatives in the First Federal Congress

The religious affiliations of these individuals are summarized below. Obviously this is a very restrictive set of names, and does not include everyone who could be considered an "American Founding Father." But most of the major figures that people generally think of in this context are included using these criteria, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, John Hancock, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and more.


http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

 

[Intense]

The Bill of Rights protects a certain set of rights, and consolidates the power to protect them in the hands of the federal government.

At the time of the ratification of the Constitution that was NOT the case. The Bill of Rights were limitations and nothing more. There was no proactive duty by the federal government to change state law to conform to those amendments.

Without the Bill of Rights, that power would have been left in the hands of the states, i.e., states' rights.

Which is exactly what they thought at the time.

The Supremacy Clause prohibits the states from passing laws that conflict with the Constitution or with federal law.

Totally Agree. Too bad it doesn't apply to Treaties though. The People have to abide, the States have to abide, not Congress though, huh.

 

[Intense]

Ah yes that Bill of Rights that so many of us worship second only to the Ten Commandments.

Fat lot of good it did for the slaves, eh?

Now gee was that conservative hypocracy or liberal hypocracy?

Or does that whole question of what the floundering fathers were philosophically simply not make sense if we're applying today's lingusitic dislogic to it?

You are babbling again. Where wasn't there slavery back then? Who imprisoned the slaves in the first place? Were they floundering too? How many Empires throughout History, utilized slavery? You need to study more on the sentiments of our founders about the issue. You might be pleasantly surprised by more than a few.

 

[Poli_Sigh]

Nor were any of them followers of Christianity. But what the hay since when has the truth set anyone free in this country?

Truth? To say the above^^^^^ and mention the word truth in the same sentence is very dishonest to say the least.

Perhaps you should read something other than Flash cards on the subject. If you can find anything anywhere in any history book, autobiography, biography or other treatise on the subject of the founders of this nation which provides valid undisputed proof that any of those men were Christians - please do so. I am eager to read what you believe proves your point.

Let me get you started - Thomas Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights - needless to say he was also integral to the writing of the Constitution - so here are couple of things he had to say on the subject of religion, generally, and Christianity, specifically.

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone. Letter to John Adams.

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter being worshiped by many who think themselves Christians. Thomas Jefferson - 1789.

Hardly the words of a devout Christian, now are they? No doubt a prime reason why the First Amendment to the Constitution guaranteed freedom of religion thereby making separation of church and state the law of the land.

America was most definitely founded by men who believed in God. However none of them were Christians and I can find many accounts backing that up. The greatest thing about the truth is that no matter what you do with it - it is still the truth.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Poli_Sigh is the far left equivalent to the far right bigrebnc: both make silly statements.

Poli, you do know that to be a county official in the colony of Virginia, the official was also a member of the vestry of his local Church of England parish?

Poli, you do know that in the long run the only ones who were assuredly not believers in Jesus Christ as Living God and Savior were Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and Ethan Allan? And George Washington and James Madison, weak Christians I agree, both attended services, though Washington refused to take communion after challenged by his parish priest to do so. John Adams was a believer in some form of Unitarian.

I am always astounded at how much the far right and the far left want to revise history.

 

[Intense]

Nor were any of them followers of Christianity. But what the hay since when has the truth set anyone free in this country?

Truth? To say the above^^^^^ and mention the word truth in the same sentence is very dishonest to say the least.

Perhaps you should read something other than Flash cards on the subject. If you can find anything anywhere in any history book, autobiography, biography or other treatise on the subject of the founders of this nation which provides valid undisputed proof that any of those men were Christians - please do so. I am eager to read what you believe proves your point.

Let me get you started - Thomas Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights - needless to say he was also integral to the writing of the Constitution - so here are couple of things he had to say on the subject of religion, generally, and Christianity, specifically.

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone. Letter to John Adams.

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter being worshiped by many who think themselves Christians. Thomas Jefferson - 1789.

Hardly the words of a devout Christian, now are they? No doubt a prime reason why the First Amendment to the Constitution guaranteed freedom of religion thereby making separation of church and state the law of the land.

America was most definitely founded by men who believed in God. However none of them were Christians and I can find many accounts backing that up. The greatest thing about the truth is that no matter what you do with it - it is still the truth.

Come on Man, Jefferson was a given, he was so outspoken about it. His own Bible? You have to love him for his boldness.



Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.
This presentation of The Jefferson Bible offers the text as selected and arranged by Jefferson in two separate editions: one edition uses a revised King James Version of the biblical texts, corrected in accordance with the findings of modern scholarship; the second edition uses the original unrevised KJV. The actual verses of the Bible used for both editions are those chosen by Jefferson. Visitors should find the revised KJV text much easier to read and understand. Those seeking the precise English version Mr. Jefferson used when making his compilation can click on "Unrevised KJV text."

The Jefferson Bible

 

[Intense]

As for the rest.




Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
Declaration of Independence
Religious Affiliation # of
signers % of
signers
Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
Congregationalist 13 23.2%
Presbyterian 12 21.4%
Quaker 2 3.6%
Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
Catholic 1 1.8%
TOTAL 56 100%

Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

 

[Cecilie1200]

"Hamilton was the Father of Big Government"

and American capitalism...

And now you're going to explain this claim to us, right?

 

[JakeStarkey]

"Hamilton was the Father of Big Government"

and American capitalism...

And now you're going to explain this claim to us, right?

Anyone who needs it explained to her has not read history.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I believe they explained it when they said - essentially - that rights already belonged to individuals, and thus did not need to be "granted" to them. They only needed to be protected from government infringement by placing strict boundaries on the government's power.

And yet when they wrote the body of the Constitution, they included NO such protection for individual rights.

Yes, all those many, many words in the Constitution, setting down strict delineations of the branches of government and what they could do, meant nothing whatsoever. Just pretty squiggles on the ol' sheepskin, kinda decorative.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You tell me who won.

Again with the deflection...

They were published Articles, not a Debate.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Debate-Constitution-Antifederalist-Ratification-1787-February/dp/0940450429]"The Debate on the Constitution : Federalist and Antifederalist Speeches, Articles, and Letters During the Struggle over Ratification : Part One, September 1787-February 1788"[/ame]

Are you a registered ignoramus?

The Federalist Papers were Publications that Ran in News Papers. Again you fail. Again you are too dumb to see that.

You're expecting this tweeko to understand the difference between this title's usage of the word "debate" and an actual debate? The more he talks, the more convinced I become that "Cat in the Hat" is too subtly nuanced for him.

 

[Agit8r]

With regard to religious beliefs among the founders, they varied greatly from one to another; the greatest difference being that between the mostly fatalistic or cynical Federalists and the generally humanistic Democratic-Republicans.

"Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls; of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government, without which they never can act a wise part in the government of societies, great or small; in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system, which will happily tend to subdue the turbulent passions of men, and introduce that golden age, beautifully described in figurative language,—when the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard lie down with the kid; the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; none shall then hurt or destroy, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord. When this millennium shall commence, if there shall be any need of civil government, indulge me in the fancy, that it will be in the republican form, or something better."

--Samuel Adams; letter to John Adams (October 4, 1790)

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Poli_Sigh is the far left equivalent to the far right bigrebnc: both make silly statements.

Poli, you do know that to be a county official in the colony of Virginia, the official was also a member of the vestry of his local Church of England parish?

Poli, you do know that in the long run the only ones who were assuredly not believers in Jesus Christ as Living God and Savior were Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and Ethan Allan? And George Washington and James Madison, weak Christians I agree, both attended services, though Washington refused to take communion after challenged by his parish priest to do so. John Adams was a believer in some form of Unitarian.

I am always astounded at how much the far right and the far left want to revise history.

and starkey is a know it all that doesn't know shit. He's just a little troll that skims the surface and acts as if it's the whole ball of wax. He reminds me of norm peterson on cheers.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Truth? To say the above^^^^^ and mention the word truth in the same sentence is very dishonest to say the least.

Perhaps you should read something other than Flash cards on the subject. If you can find anything anywhere in any history book, autobiography, biography or other treatise on the subject of the founders of this nation which provides valid undisputed proof that any of those men were Christians - please do so. I am eager to read what you believe proves your point.

Let me get you started - Thomas Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights - needless to say he was also integral to the writing of the Constitution - so here are couple of things he had to say on the subject of religion, generally, and Christianity, specifically.

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone. Letter to John Adams.

I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter being worshiped by many who think themselves Christians. Thomas Jefferson - 1789.

Hardly the words of a devout Christian, now are they? No doubt a prime reason why the First Amendment to the Constitution guaranteed freedom of religion thereby making separation of church and state the law of the land.

America was most definitely founded by men who believed in God. However none of them were Christians and I can find many accounts backing that up. The greatest thing about the truth is that no matter what you do with it - it is still the truth.

Come on Man, Jefferson was a given, he was so outspoken about it. His own Bible? You have to love him for his boldness.



Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.
This presentation of The Jefferson Bible offers the text as selected and arranged by Jefferson in two separate editions: one edition uses a revised King James Version of the biblical texts, corrected in accordance with the findings of modern scholarship; the second edition uses the original unrevised KJV. The actual verses of the Bible used for both editions are those chosen by Jefferson. Visitors should find the revised KJV text much easier to read and understand. Those seeking the precise English version Mr. Jefferson used when making his compilation can click on "Unrevised KJV text."

The Jefferson Bible

Jefferson is not a givey



The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom

Thomas Jefferson, 1786

Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time; that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporal rewards.......
The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom - Religious Freedom Page