One more time: Explaining to Progressives why ACA Mandates were Unconstitutional

[MadChemist]

1. Where in the 18 enumerated powers of govt is there a duty or application that you are using to cover health care, education and social support?

Our welfare clause is general not common. Where do right wingers find any powers of government for alleged wars on crime, drugs, or terror; or, even an airforce or a space force?

Wrong again.

It has been explained to you repeatedly, and shown you by what Madison stated, that you are incorrect.

Yet, because you have no integrity and need to clutch onto your big lie, you continue to make this stupid claim.

The government is responsible for defense of the nation. The air force is a no brainer. The war on terror is the same thing.

As to the rest, they may or not be constitutional. Only a challenge will show it.

emilynghiem; You've nailed it. Our resident juvenile just can't fathom that Jack Frost does not exist.

Right wingers are more disingenuous. If we can't do anything required for the general welfare, how can right wingers allege and imply that we can do everything for the common defense; when there is no general warfare clause nor any common offense clause in our federal Constitution like there is for the general welfare (clause).

Well thank you danielpalos
I looked it up and FINALLY FOUND where you and fellow Liberals are getting all this general welfare business. It is actually listed in one of the 18 enumerated powers; however so are all the other listed powers referring to military and defense, that take up many more articles in the same list (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16, while sharing the number 1 spot with BOTH common defense and general welfare stated together). The ratio is strongly toward govt having more business and responsibility for armed and common defense. Clearly individuals cannot represent that for the whole nation, so it makes sense Federal Govt should manage national security and defense for the US as a whole body, while the OPPOSITE is true with individual health care and educational and social policies, that individuals need to defend their own choices which cannot be "dictated the same for everyone by federal govt" (unless we each and all agree to the same policies, which clearly we do not due to cultural and religious differences Govt can defend but cannot establish, prohibit, regulate or penalize for Constitutional reasons). See below, and count how many of the 18 powers refer to military and common defense duties of govt. Very interesting and enlightening, danielpalos , thank you for pointing out both sides are in there but the ratio is clearly on the side of govt focused on external issues of security and not on micromanaging internal affairs which runs afoul by depriving individuals of liberty without due process and by not seeking the least restrictive means of meeting compelling govt duty to protect and represent public interests, including all people of all creeds, not just onesided partisan narrative or solutions seeking to define policy for everyone without taking diversity into account.View attachment 470149

Madison was quite clear that general welfare was meant within the context of the enumerated powers.

That was the problem with the articles of confederation. They didn't give the federal government the resources to do their job.

If you think the country was willing to turn the entire set of keys over to the federal government (as some claim), you'd be ignoring the fact that the framers were facing a lot of distrust on the part of people with regards to the federal government.

That was why the federalist papers were written. To convince people the U.S. Constitution did not have ultimate authority except in a limited scope.

 

[MadChemist]

We can always use better infrastructure; we don't need the largest military in the world, especially when even the right wing doesn't want to pay for it with largest military in the world tax rates.

Got nothing to do with her argument.

 

[Tax Man]

The affordable care act is not an illegal law. It was and is for the betterment of America to have healthy people to serve in time of war.

 

[emilynghiem]

We can always use better infrastructure; we don't need the largest military in the world, especially when even the right wing doesn't want to pay for it with largest military in the world tax rates.

Dear danielpalos
Conservatives I know are happy to pay for military, for benefits for VETERANS who earned that by serving (unlike people who don't serve and still expect other taxpayers to pay for their education for free), and even pay for the Border Wall. Like the contributors who raised millions to support the effort.

Sadly danielpalos when I have asked my fellow progressives about setting up universal health care through cooperatives, very few understand that is the key. Instead of lobbying our own Democratic donors to invest in creating jobs and benefits directly, we see millions if not billions going into "campaigns to run for office" that could have paid salaries to create positions for entire staff of administrations to manage our own health care!

Wouldn't it be interesting, and make more sense, to require taxpayers to fund the priorities and beliefs they support as the role of govt they lobby for?

Why not give equal choice of
training, service and funding either military service or medical service, as a requirement of citizenship under Selective
Service, in order to qualify for health benefits and education?

 

[emilynghiem]

The affordable care act is not an illegal law. It was and is for the betterment of America to have healthy people to serve in time of war.

Disagree Tax Man
Not only was it not the LEAST RESTRICTIVE means, but it violated liberty and due process rights of individuals, discriminated by creed and penalized Constitutionalists, Conservatives and Libertarians whose beliefs were violated, and was found unconstitutional in the abuse of funds without Congressional approval, the Hobby Lobby case that focused on one area of religious freedom violation (there were others, such as penalty exemptions only for certain religious memberships approved by govt which is, again, govt regulating religion and discriminating by creed) and where states that sued won their lawsuits seeking multimillion dollar reimbursements.

Tax Man The options set up could have been kept voluntary and it would have been Constitutional. Democrats supporting it have plenty of resources to support these programs for the people who believe in using govt this way, so those supporters can fund it directly without govt mandate imposing on others who believe in free choice.

This reminds me of the man who saved his son's life, who was about to be unplugged from life support, by holding the medical staff at gunpoint until they agreed to check his claims that his son was responding.

It may have turned out to be for the best, and saved that person's life. But the act of threatening hospital staff with a gun is still ILLEGAL and the man still has to answer for his violation.

With ACA, the cost to taxpayers of the unconstitutional overreach, abuses, unauthorized spending, and govt shutdown over disputing the bill and budget, should all be paid back by the parties responsible.

Unwillingness of Democrats and other progressives to fund their own health care network and benefits does not constitute justification for forcing this through govt for all taxpayers to fund. That is not the "only way" and not the "least restrictive."

Tax breaks could be given to reward citizens and businesses for investing in their own medical associations, teaching hospitals and cooperative clinics, on local or state levels.

There are better ways to coordinate health care that don't involve violating rights of people or states.

 

[danielpalos]

We can always use better infrastructure; we don't need the largest military in the world, especially when even the right wing doesn't want to pay for it with largest military in the world tax rates.

Dear danielpalos
Conservatives I know are happy to pay for military, for benefits for VETERANS who earned that by serving (unlike people who don't serve and still expect other taxpayers to pay for their education for free), and even pay for the Border Wall. Like the contributors who raised millions to support the effort.

Sadly danielpalos when I have asked my fellow progressives about setting up universal health care through cooperatives, very few understand that is the key. Instead of lobbying our own Democratic donors to invest in creating jobs and benefits directly, we see millions if not billions going into "campaigns to run for office" that could have paid salaries to create positions for entire staff of administrations to manage our own health care!

Wouldn't it be interesting, and make more sense, to require taxpayers to fund the priorities and beliefs they support as the role of govt they lobby for?

Why not give equal choice of
training, service and funding either military service or medical service, as a requirement of citizenship under Selective
Service, in order to qualify for health benefits and education?

I believe our legislators should be tasking Academia to discover Pareto Optimal solutions to our problems in order to better promote and provide for the general welfare. In our California case, Academia could be more moral by being more faithful to our State motto, and proclaim; Eureka, eureka, at every opportunity! It could be an alternative to simply rubber-stamping lobbyist proposals.

I also believe we should be holding Government accountable. It is an entitlement at law. Equal protection of the law is a responsibility of Government under our Constitution(s). We should be solving simple poverty in a market friendly manner that can promote and provide for the general welfare.

 

[JustAGuy1]

As I told other friends, you have your political beliefs you are entitled to. And so do Constitutionalists and Christians who believe in right to life as you believe in right to health care.

Right wingers are simply too disingenuous to be credible. Y'all allege anything can be done for the common defense but not the general welfare.

Where as you think you can do anything you want as long as you couch it in "for the general welfare".

 

[danielpalos]

As I told other friends, you have your political beliefs you are entitled to. And so do Constitutionalists and Christians who believe in right to life as you believe in right to health care.

Right wingers are simply too disingenuous to be credible. Y'all allege anything can be done for the common defense but not the general welfare.

Where as you think you can do anything you want as long as you couch it in "for the general welfare".

Why should you care in any at-will employment State where you could simply quit and go on unemployment yourself, instead of feeling any need to complain about it.

 

[JustAGuy1]

As I told other friends, you have your political beliefs you are entitled to. And so do Constitutionalists and Christians who believe in right to life as you believe in right to health care.

Right wingers are simply too disingenuous to be credible. Y'all allege anything can be done for the common defense but not the general welfare.

Where as you think you can do anything you want as long as you couch it in "for the general welfare".

Why should you care in any at-will employment State where you could simply quit and go on unemployment yourself, instead of feeling any need to complain about it.

Try postng something in English that pertains to something someone actually said.

 

[danielpalos]

As I told other friends, you have your political beliefs you are entitled to. And so do Constitutionalists and Christians who believe in right to life as you believe in right to health care.

Right wingers are simply too disingenuous to be credible. Y'all allege anything can be done for the common defense but not the general welfare.

Where as you think you can do anything you want as long as you couch it in "for the general welfare".

Why should you care in any at-will employment State where you could simply quit and go on unemployment yourself, instead of feeling any need to complain about it.

Try postng something in English that pertains to something someone actually said.

In other words, you got nothing but fallacy like usual for the right wing.

How would You, specifically be worse off with faithful execution of our own laws in our own at-will employment States?

 

[JustAGuy1]

As I told other friends, you have your political beliefs you are entitled to. And so do Constitutionalists and Christians who believe in right to life as you believe in right to health care.

Right wingers are simply too disingenuous to be credible. Y'all allege anything can be done for the common defense but not the general welfare.

Where as you think you can do anything you want as long as you couch it in "for the general welfare".

Why should you care in any at-will employment State where you could simply quit and go on unemployment yourself, instead of feeling any need to complain about it.

Try postng something in English that pertains to something someone actually said.

In other words, you got nothing but fallacy like usual for the right wing.

How would You, specifically be worse off with faithful execution of our own laws in our own at-will employment States?

You're not a bright guy. This is about Maksks. I won't wear them and there is nthing you can do to force it.

 

[danielpalos]

As I told other friends, you have your political beliefs you are entitled to. And so do Constitutionalists and Christians who believe in right to life as you believe in right to health care.

Right wingers are simply too disingenuous to be credible. Y'all allege anything can be done for the common defense but not the general welfare.

Where as you think you can do anything you want as long as you couch it in "for the general welfare".

Why should you care in any at-will employment State where you could simply quit and go on unemployment yourself, instead of feeling any need to complain about it.

Try postng something in English that pertains to something someone actually said.

In other words, you got nothing but fallacy like usual for the right wing.

How would You, specifically be worse off with faithful execution of our own laws in our own at-will employment States?

You're not a bright guy. This is about Maksks. I won't wear them and there is nthing you can do to force it.

 

[rightwinger]

SCOTUS says otherwise

Conservatives need to be schooled on the Constitution

 

[danielpalos]

Right wingers only know how to resort to fallacy and allege they are not really like that, afterward.

 

[Dragonlady]

When we start treating Parties with the same respect as Religious groups, then we might fulfill our Constitutional promises of equal protection of the laws without discrimination by creed.

When you start treating politics as a religion???? You have completely lost your mind.

Political platforms aren’t based of “faith” or a belief system. They’re based on facts , information, and the goals the party hope to achieve for the country.

The purpose of government is to manage the nation’s resources to the benefit of its citizens, not to promote ideaology and a national identity.

The fervent promotion of the nation as a religion is one of founding pillars of fascism.

 

[TNHarley]

When we start treating Parties with the same respect as Religious groups, then we might fulfill our Constitutional promises of equal protection of the laws without discrimination by creed.

When you start treating politics as a religion???? You have completely lost your mind.

Political platforms aren’t based of “faith” or a belief system. They’re based on facts , information, and the goals the party hope to achieve for the country.

The purpose of government is to manage the nation’s resources to the benefit of its citizens, not to promote ideaology and a national identity.

The fervent promotion of the nation as a religion is one of founding pillars of fascism.

Then why does our govt go after people with a different ideology than them?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

And one more time, educating fellow progressives on why the ACA mandates were unconstitutional.
========================================
To fellow Progressives on why ACA was unconstitutional:

1. ACA was passed as public health bill through Congress since it would have failed as a tax bill and voted down. But Justice Roberts rewrote his dissenting opinion to rule in favor of ACA as a tax bill since it failed to qualify under either the commerce clause or any other provision (as you use "general welfare" which isnt in the actual Constitutional laws and duties) It is disputed for this reason, that it wasn't the same bill passed through both Congress and Courts, where the Judicial branch does NOT have legislative authority to "rewrite" a public health bill as a tax bill in order to rule in favor. However contesting this issue requires a Constitutional Convention due to the clashing beliefs exceeding the jurisdiction of both federal govt and courts because political beliefs belong to the people

2. Note to Progressives: the political belief in right to health care, like right to life applying to unborn, belongs to the people. A Constitutional Amendment is required to expand the jurisdiction and duties of federal govt to apply right to health care and right to life on a national scale. Otherwise establishing beliefs of one group over others discriminates by creed and violates equal Civil Rights and Constitutional protections.

As I told other friends, you have your political beliefs you are entitled to. And so do Constitutionalists and Christians who believe in right to life as you believe in right to health care. Obama, Pelosi and Roberts committed overreach and violated Constitutional protections by establishing a mandate that violated and discriminated against a whole class of people of Constitutional beliefs violated by bypassing an Amendment and abusing Congress and Courts to pass a hybrid bill that didn't follow Constitutional process and limits.

Consequently because ACA didn't meet Constitutional standards of representation, key provisions were struck down later as unconstitutional. Not just the birth control requirements, but the funding conflicts later reimbursed back to states, and the unconstitutional expenditures by Obama that failed to go through Congress.

Thus, ACA was unconstitutional on several levels: in spirit, by the letter of the law where it failed to follow the literal legislative and judicial process, and in the execution.

Sorry: You can believe it was legal but so was Slavery ruled as legal under property laws enforced by Courts. Courts were not the place to prove Slavery violated rights. The people had to establish that first, before govt and laws reflected and represented the people.

This is as wrong and ridiculous now as it was last January.

 

[Dragonlady]

When we start treating Parties with the same respect as Religious groups, then we might fulfill our Constitutional promises of equal protection of the laws without discrimination by creed.

When you start treating politics as a religion???? You have completely lost your mind.

Political platforms aren’t based of “faith” or a belief system. They’re based on facts , information, and the goals the party hope to achieve for the country.

The purpose of government is to manage the nation’s resources to the benefit of its citizens, not to promote ideaology and a national identity.

The fervent promotion of the nation as a religion is one of founding pillars of fascism.

Then why does our govt go after people with a different ideology than them?

The government isn’t going after people for promoting a different ideology from them. The government is pursuing people who are lying to the public in an effort to undermine and overthrow the US government.

The election was not stolen. There was no voter fraud. The continuing attempts of Republican leadership to suck and blow at the same time are tearing the party apart.

Republicans need to abandon the naked pursuit of power and cleanse the party the politics of white nationalism, the hateful and racist propaganda being pushed by billionaire corporate media like FOX News, Breitbart, OAN and Newsmax, all of whom receive billions of dollars in Republican tax cuts every time there’s an R in the White House.

Rupert Murdoch, Robert Mercer, the Sinclair’s, and the billionaire clown who owns OAN, personally benefit from promoting lies about Democrats in the guise of “free speech”.

Rumours started and promoted by Robert Mercer lead to multiple investigations of Uranium One, the Clinton Foundation, and an IRS investigation - none of which found anything improper or illegal about ANY of the Clinton’s business or Charity.

FOX News promoted Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi investigations, along with other fake scandals like IRS and Fast and Furious - all of which were endlessly investigated by the House and Senate without any findings of wrong doing or criminal charges laid - against anyone.

Trump spent four years in the entire resources of the justice department investigating his political enemies in the FBI, CIA, NSA and the Obama administration, without filing a single charge against anyone.

The inspector general for the justice department found the low-level FBI drone who was charged with making a minor change on the Carter Page FISA warrant. Hardly the massive conspiracy against the Trump campaign which Donald Trump continues to claim to this day.

At the same time these right wing outlets label investigations of Republicans and specifically Trump administration officials and staffers, as “witchhunts”.

These “witchhunts” resulted in hundreds of charges, 10 convictions/guilty pleas, and more than $40 million in fines and levies being recovered.

How do you justify calling Democrats “liars and criminals” when none of your investigations have found any crimes or resulted in any charges? When those making the false allegations against Democrats have national broadcast licenses to beam their propaganda and lies into millions of home American homes with impunity?

 

[TNHarley]

When we start treating Parties with the same respect as Religious groups, then we might fulfill our Constitutional promises of equal protection of the laws without discrimination by creed.

When you start treating politics as a religion???? You have completely lost your mind.

Political platforms aren’t based of “faith” or a belief system. They’re based on facts , information, and the goals the party hope to achieve for the country.

The purpose of government is to manage the nation’s resources to the benefit of its citizens, not to promote ideaology and a national identity.

The fervent promotion of the nation as a religion is one of founding pillars of fascism.

Then why does our govt go after people with a different ideology than them?

The government isn’t going after people for promoting a different ideology from them. The government is pursuing people who are lying to the public in an effort to undermine and overthrow the US government.

The election was not stolen. There was no voter fraud. The continuing attempts of Republican leadership to suck and blow at the same time are tearing the party apart.

Republicans need to abandon the naked pursuit of power and cleanse the party the politics of white nationalism, the hateful and racist propaganda being pushed by billionaire corporate media like FOX News, Breitbart, OAN and Newsmax, all of whom receive billions of dollars in Republican tax cuts every time there’s an R in the White House.

Rupert Murdoch, Robert Mercer, the Sinclair’s, and the billionaire clown who owns OAN, personally benefit from promoting lies about Democrats in the guise of “free speech”.

Rumours started and promoted by Robert Mercer lead to multiple investigations of Uranium One, the Clinton Foundation, and an IRS investigation - none of which found anything improper or illegal about ANY of the Clinton’s business or Charity.

FOX News promoted Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi investigations, along with other fake scandals like IRS and Fast and Furious - all of which were endlessly investigated by the House and Senate without any findings of wrong doing or criminal charges laid - against anyone.

Trump spent four years in the entire resources of the justice department investigating his political enemies in the FBI, CIA, NSA and the Obama administration, without filing a single charge against anyone.

The inspector general for the justice department found the low-level FBI drone who was charged with making a minor change on the Carter Page FISA warrant. Hardly the massive conspiracy against the Trump campaign which Donald Trump continues to claim to this day.

At the same time these right wing outlets label investigations of Republicans and specifically Trump administration officials and staffers, as “witchhunts”.

These “witchhunts” resulted in hundreds of charges, 10 convictions/guilty pleas, and more than $40 million in fines and levies being recovered.

How do you justify calling Democrats “liars and criminals” when none of your investigations have found any crimes or resulted in any charges? When those making the false allegations against Democrats have national broadcast licenses to beam their propaganda and lies into millions of home American homes with impunity?

Ummm ok boomer. Try watching news from the last 10 years

 

[JustAGuy1]

As I told other friends, you have your political beliefs you are entitled to. And so do Constitutionalists and Christians who believe in right to life as you believe in right to health care.

Right wingers are simply too disingenuous to be credible. Y'all allege anything can be done for the common defense but not the general welfare.

Where as you think you can do anything you want as long as you couch it in "for the general welfare".

Why should you care in any at-will employment State where you could simply quit and go on unemployment yourself, instead of feeling any need to complain about it.

Try postng something in English that pertains to something someone actually said.

In other words, you got nothing but fallacy like usual for the right wing.

How would You, specifically be worse off with faithful execution of our own laws in our own at-will employment States?

You're not a bright guy. This is about Maksks. I won't wear them and there is nthing you can do to force it.

View attachment 471667

Not happening Spanky