On the GOP

[Trajan]

Well, for one thing, their party is the one that keeps winning national elections. If you look at their platform and compare it to public opinion polls, what do you find? Do you find that the majority opinion on most issues sides with Dem or Rep policy?

and so what? nixon 2 terms, carter, 1, reagan 2, bush 1, clinton 2, bush 2, obama 2.......

and- while the gop was winning the majority of those, , the house was dem. for 47 straight years...and the senate was gop for only 16 of those years.......


IF there is a turn to mark it is this- since jan 95;

the gop has had the house 12 years till jan 2007.

The senate- 10 of 12 years with 2 split evenly.

now what?

The answer to "now what" is simple, its application seems impossible. The majority of voters recoil from extremism and overreach. Both parties have suffered the consequences recently and seem unable to learn the public wants moderation; slow change explained in detail: What, why, when, who (benefits) and how does it effect me.

ok, I am glad that we have finally reached ( it appears) the conclusion that both parties are at fault.

IF the dems win the presidency but don't take the house in 14 or 16, ( or keep the senate) we have just flipped the paradigm.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Left wing nutter: The GOP is dying, but hey, I'll tell you how you can win again.

Republican: How's that?

Left Wing Nutter: Adopt the Progressive platform.

While you are using derisive terminology you are much closer to the truth than you probably realize yourself, PF. The demographics of the nation are changing and that cannot be stopped so sticking to policies that alienate the new demographics makes no political sense.

What is being missed here is that there is a change within the GOP that is being ignored. It won't be the moderate Republicans who will retake control of the party from the extreme right wing. They don't have what it takes to face down the primary threats.

The salvation of the GOP from within lies in the generation represented by the likes of Megan McCain. They were raised with core conservative beliefs and values and are still loyal to the RP. However they are more open minded about the new demographics of this nation. They are more adaptable and will find ways to reach out and appeal to those demographics because they share many of their values.

Does this mean embracing "progressivism"? Not in the same sense as it applies to the DP. Conservative parties in other westernized nations have come to terms with the need for universal healthcare and similar policies and made the necessary compromises. By embracing them but demanding that they must be run efficiently and effectively they have become an effective counterbalance to the parties on their left.

So it is not a matter of "adopting" the "progressive platform" as much as it is ADAPTING to the new realities that face this nation. The next RP generation is already in that mindset. They just haven't found their voice yet.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

I see. You're not admitting to being a member of the GOP, nor of the Democratic Party. So why would you find my comments on the current state of the RP amusing or worth an ad hominem? I'm may be off base, but I smell a self righteous curmudgeon whose allegiance is only to himself and enjoys 'hearing' himself 'talk'.

A thoughtful response would either defend the RP (though it is hard to imagine a thoughtful post defending the RP of today) or, in your case, and argument offering an alternative to the DP and the RP.

Actually, a thoughtful response is no response at all. Your premise is flawed and therefore requires no comment. If anything, it is nothing but a bait and switch to get people to defend what YOU consider the indefensible. Except that what you consider indefensible is itself, an extremist position.

Now you're being ridiculous. My "premise"? I pointed out facts and offered an opinion. You may disagree and LOL or ignore my post. But don't lie and pretend, for example, what the GOP is doing on the issue of abortion isn't an attack on women; what the H. of Rep. is doing on the Immigration issue is not an attack on Latinos.

So because Latinos are not given "special exception" to Federal Immigration laws that other immigrants need to abide by, the Republicans are somehow attacking Latinos? Perhaps we need to be treating ALL immigrants the same, instead of singling out and viewing a particular group through the eyes of a solid voting block to keep a certain party in power? Is appeasement more important than following current laws regarding this issue? At least the Republicans aren't desperate enough to overlook what is right for the vast majority of OTHER immigrants, seeking to endure the long legal process to become citizens of the United States under the law.

Add special exception immigration laws to single out one particular group of immigrants with the strong resistance towards ensuring any form of regulated voter integrity in elections, and there is a strong argument towards a party who will use any means to establish an environment that encourages a certainty of power.

Relevancy of the GOP or one party's appeasement over simply enforcing our current Federal laws?

 

[Seawytch]

You did not answer the question.

How can you possibly believe that the bastards representing your party are not extremist or that they come close to representing all American citizens? That should not be a difficult question to answer.

Immie

Well, for one thing, their party is the one that keeps winning national elections. If you look at their platform and compare it to public opinion polls, what do you find? Do you find that the majority opinion on most issues sides with Dem or Rep policy?

i dont see that....it depends on the topic.....what i do see is that both parties are pretty bad at defending themselves from what the other party says about them....

Pick a topic...any topic. Where do public opinion polls gel with the GOP platform and policies?

 

[Derideo_Te]

Actually, a thoughtful response is no response at all. Your premise is flawed and therefore requires no comment. If anything, it is nothing but a bait and switch to get people to defend what YOU consider the indefensible. Except that what you consider indefensible is itself, an extremist position.

Now you're being ridiculous. My "premise"? I pointed out facts and offered an opinion. You may disagree and LOL or ignore my post. But don't lie and pretend, for example, what the GOP is doing on the issue of abortion isn't an attack on women; what the H. of Rep. is doing on the Immigration issue is not an attack on Latinos.

So because Latinos are not given "special exception" to Federal Immigration laws that other immigrants need to abide by, the Republicans are somehow attacking Latinos? Perhaps we need to be treating ALL immigrants the same, instead of singling out and viewing a particular group through the eyes of a solid voting block to keep a certain party in power? Is appeasement more important than following current laws regarding this issue? At least the Republicans aren't desperate enough to overlook what is right for the vast majority of OTHER immigrants, seeking to endure the long legal process to become citizens of the United States under the law.

Add special exception immigration laws to single out one particular group of immigrants with the strong resistance towards ensuring any form of regulated voter integrity in elections, and there is a strong argument towards a party who will use any means to establish an environment that encourages a certainty of power.

Relevancy of the GOP or one party's appeasement over simply enforcing our current Federal laws?

While Latinos might be the largest bloc of illegal immigrants they are not the only ones. In Chicago it is the Poles who are a significant part of the illegal immigrant population. So alienating all illegal immigrants means that the RP is also losing voters amongst Polish-Americans.

 

[Dot Com]

I almost feel sorry for Republicorp digging their own electoral grave. The Left needs a believable opposition. If the Repubs would stop w/ their culture wars and fluffing the wealthy they might stand a chance in Presidential & Senatorial elections.

 

[Wry Catcher]

and so what? nixon 2 terms, carter, 1, reagan 2, bush 1, clinton 2, bush 2, obama 2.......

and- while the gop was winning the majority of those, , the house was dem. for 47 straight years...and the senate was gop for only 16 of those years.......


IF there is a turn to mark it is this- since jan 95;

the gop has had the house 12 years till jan 2007.

The senate- 10 of 12 years with 2 split evenly.

now what?

The answer to "now what" is simple, its application seems impossible. The majority of voters recoil from extremism and overreach. Both parties have suffered the consequences recently and seem unable to learn the public wants moderation; slow change explained in detail: What, why, when, who (benefits) and how does it effect me.

ok, I am glad that we have finally reached ( it appears) the conclusion that both parties are at fault.

IF the dems win the presidency but don't take the house in 14 or 16, ( or keep the senate) we have just flipped the paradigm.

Yep, and the issue then becomes will the new players actually govern or will they continue to kick the can down the road, dig in their heals and blame the other guy.

 

[Trajan]

Well, for one thing, their party is the one that keeps winning national elections. If you look at their platform and compare it to public opinion polls, what do you find? Do you find that the majority opinion on most issues sides with Dem or Rep policy?

i dont see that....it depends on the topic.....what i do see is that both parties are pretty bad at defending themselves from what the other party says about them....

Pick a topic...any topic. Where do public opinion polls gel with the GOP platform and policies?

why don't you tell us? you proposed the hypothesis....


wanna start with say- obamacare?

 

[auditor0007]

The Republican Party (RP) is dying by its own hand. To be viable it needs to weed out extremists and understand a national party needs to represent all United States Citizens. At one time the party leaders pretended to have a big tent open to everyone; once that was proved ridiculous they dropped the tag-line and even the pretext of cultural pluralism.

There is no doubt that the RP is the party of Big Business and holds blue collar workers in disdain. Their policies exploit the low income worker, both non citizen immigrants and Americans citizens, and deceive the middle class with platitudes, false pathos and promises never fulfilled. They obfuscate issues with emotion laden propaganda and misuse words - making them pejoratives - to defame anyone who represents a threat to their one goal: Power.

Essentially the RP of today is built on a foundation of mendacity and is little different than the French Aristocracy before 1789. While the phrase, "let them eat cake" is apocryphal it exists today in the policies of the extreme members in GOP leadership, especially on the state level. Attacks on Unionism, demands that the poor pay more in taxes and the 'job creators' pay less, eliminating the minimum wage law, acting as if those in the legislatures know better then do doctors on the needs of health for women and children, building barriers to voting and that anyone who attempts to curtail the abuse of health insurers is a Communist, Socialist or Statist.

Unless the RP wakes up it will find itself a footnote in history.

First of all, it is impossible to weed out the extremists when they comprise such a large percentage of the party. The problem is that the extreme right has control of the party and is dictating the dialogue for the entire party. More reasonable Republicans need to take the party back from these extremists while still understanding that they will be given a voice. The problem is that many reasonable Republicans are just fed up and are leaving the party. If they never go back, then the Republican Party is finished in the long run.

 

[Trajan]

The Republican Party (RP) is dying by its own hand. To be viable it needs to weed out extremists and understand a national party needs to represent all United States Citizens. At one time the party leaders pretended to have a big tent open to everyone; once that was proved ridiculous they dropped the tag-line and even the pretext of cultural pluralism.

There is no doubt that the RP is the party of Big Business and holds blue collar workers in disdain. Their policies exploit the low income worker, both non citizen immigrants and Americans citizens, and deceive the middle class with platitudes, false pathos and promises never fulfilled. They obfuscate issues with emotion laden propaganda and misuse words - making them pejoratives - to defame anyone who represents a threat to their one goal: Power.

Essentially the RP of today is built on a foundation of mendacity and is little different than the French Aristocracy before 1789. While the phrase, "let them eat cake" is apocryphal it exists today in the policies of the extreme members in GOP leadership, especially on the state level. Attacks on Unionism, demands that the poor pay more in taxes and the 'job creators' pay less, eliminating the minimum wage law, acting as if those in the legislatures know better then do doctors on the needs of health for women and children, building barriers to voting and that anyone who attempts to curtail the abuse of health insurers is a Communist, Socialist or Statist.

Unless the RP wakes up it will find itself a footnote in history.

First of all, it is impossible to weed out the extremists when they comprise such a large percentage of the party. The problem is that the extreme right has control of the party and is dictating the dialogue for the entire party. More reasonable Republicans need to take the party back from these extremists while still understanding that they will be given a voice. The problem is that many reasonable Republicans are just fed up and are leaving the party. If they never go back, then the Republican Party is finished in the long run.

lets start providing examples of these extremists views, it might be helpful-


1.________________


2._________________


3._________________



bzxh11

 

[Harry Dresden]

Well, for one thing, their party is the one that keeps winning national elections. If you look at their platform and compare it to public opinion polls, what do you find? Do you find that the majority opinion on most issues sides with Dem or Rep policy?

i dont see that....it depends on the topic.....what i do see is that both parties are pretty bad at defending themselves from what the other party says about them....

Pick a topic...any topic. Where do public opinion polls gel with the GOP platform and policies?

the right for gays to be married like non-gays....you can say i am full of shit on this....but the thing failed twice in this pretty Liberal State ......so apparently a hell of a lot of Democrats feel the same as Republicans do....

 

[Wry Catcher]

The Republican Party (RP) is dying by its own hand. To be viable it needs to weed out extremists and understand a national party needs to represent all United States Citizens. At one time the party leaders pretended to have a big tent open to everyone; once that was proved ridiculous they dropped the tag-line and even the pretext of cultural pluralism.

There is no doubt that the RP is the party of Big Business and holds blue collar workers in disdain. Their policies exploit the low income worker, both non citizen immigrants and Americans citizens, and deceive the middle class with platitudes, false pathos and promises never fulfilled. They obfuscate issues with emotion laden propaganda and misuse words - making them pejoratives - to defame anyone who represents a threat to their one goal: Power.

Essentially the RP of today is built on a foundation of mendacity and is little different than the French Aristocracy before 1789. While the phrase, "let them eat cake" is apocryphal it exists today in the policies of the extreme members in GOP leadership, especially on the state level. Attacks on Unionism, demands that the poor pay more in taxes and the 'job creators' pay less, eliminating the minimum wage law, acting as if those in the legislatures know better then do doctors on the needs of health for women and children, building barriers to voting and that anyone who attempts to curtail the abuse of health insurers is a Communist, Socialist or Statist.

Unless the RP wakes up it will find itself a footnote in history.

First of all, it is impossible to weed out the extremists when they comprise such a large percentage of the party. The problem is that the extreme right has control of the party and is dictating the dialogue for the entire party. More reasonable Republicans need to take the party back from these extremists while still understanding that they will be given a voice. The problem is that many reasonable Republicans are just fed up and are leaving the party. If they never go back, then the Republican Party is finished in the long run.

lets start providing examples of these extremists views, it might be helpful-


1.________________


2._________________


3._________________

1. Anyone who has called out a fellow Republican as a Republican in Name Only for simply agreeing with a Democrat;

2. Those Republicans who supported reform of health care in America until it become a major policy issue under the Obama Administration;

3. Tax hawks who support cutting taxes to the rich and claiming the rich create jobs, and wanting to raise taxes on the working poor;

4. Those who want to deny unemployment benefits and the renewal of UE;

5. Sen. Minority Leader McConnell for his expressed efforts to nullify the Obama Presidency;

6. Those who support the five member of the Supreme Court which voted for CU v. FEC;

7. Those today opposing comprehensive Immigration Reform;

8. Those opposing comprehensive tax reform;

9. Those who opposed the Dream Act.

 

[Harry Dresden]

I almost feel sorry for Republicorp digging their own electoral grave. The Left needs a believable opposition. If the Repubs would stop w/ their culture wars and fluffing the wealthy they might stand a chance in Presidential & Senatorial elections.

Democrats do the same thing "Dottie".....they just do it in their own special way.....you cant see it because....you are one of them....otherwise you would not have said it....

 

[TemplarKormac]

The Republican Party (RP) is dying by its own hand. To be viable it needs to weed out extremists and understand a national party needs to represent all United States Citizens. At one time the party leaders pretended to have a big tent open to everyone; once that was proved ridiculous they dropped the tag-line and even the pretext of cultural pluralism.

There is no doubt that the RP is the party of Big Business and holds blue collar workers in disdain. Their policies exploit the low income worker, both non citizen immigrants and Americans citizens, and deceive the middle class with platitudes, false pathos and promises never fulfilled. They obfuscate issues with emotion laden propaganda and misuse words - making them pejoratives - to defame anyone who represents a threat to their one goal: Power.

Essentially the RP of today is built on a foundation of mendacity and is little different than the French Aristocracy before 1789. While the phrase, "let them eat cake" is apocryphal it exists today in the policies of the extreme members in GOP leadership, especially on the state level. Attacks on Unionism, demands that the poor pay more in taxes and the 'job creators' pay less, eliminating the minimum wage law, acting as if those in the legislatures know better then do doctors on the needs of health for women and children, building barriers to voting and that anyone who attempts to curtail the abuse of health insurers is a Communist, Socialist or Statist.

Unless the RP wakes up it will find itself a footnote in history.

First of all, it is impossible to weed out the extremists when they comprise such a large percentage of the party. The problem is that the extreme right has control of the party and is dictating the dialogue for the entire party. More reasonable Republicans need to take the party back from these extremists while still understanding that they will be given a voice. The problem is that many reasonable Republicans are just fed up and are leaving the party. If they never go back, then the Republican Party is finished in the long run.

lets start providing examples of these extremists views, it might be helpful-


1.________________


2._________________


3._________________

The reply from WC will be:

1. Racist

2. Racist

3. Did I mention that you're a racist?

Liberals are so amusing!

 

[Harry Dresden]

First of all, it is impossible to weed out the extremists when they comprise such a large percentage of the party. The problem is that the extreme right has control of the party and is dictating the dialogue for the entire party. More reasonable Republicans need to take the party back from these extremists while still understanding that they will be given a voice. The problem is that many reasonable Republicans are just fed up and are leaving the party. If they never go back, then the Republican Party is finished in the long run.

lets start providing examples of these extremists views, it might be helpful-


1.________________


2._________________


3._________________

1. Anyone who has called out a fellow Republican as a Republican in Name Only for simply agreeing with a Democrat;

2. Those Republicans who supported reform of health care in America until it become a major policy issue under the Obama Administration;

3. Tax hawks who support cutting taxes to the rich and claiming the rich create jobs, and wanting to raise taxes on the working poor;

4. Those who want to deny unemployment benefits and the renewal of UE;

5. Sen. Minority Leader McConnell for his expressed efforts to nullify the Obama Presidency;

6. Those who support the five member of the Supreme Court which voted for CU v. FEC;

7. Those today opposing comprehensive Immigration Reform;

8. Those opposing comprehensive tax reform;

9. Those who opposed the Dream Act.

1. Anyone who has called out a fellow Republican as a Republican in Name Only for simply agreeing with a Democrat;

is that like the Democrats who call fellow Democrats "Blue Dogs" because.....they might be too Conservative for their tastes and may agree with a Republican position?.....

 

[Trajan]

First of all, it is impossible to weed out the extremists when they comprise such a large percentage of the party. The problem is that the extreme right has control of the party and is dictating the dialogue for the entire party. More reasonable Republicans need to take the party back from these extremists while still understanding that they will be given a voice. The problem is that many reasonable Republicans are just fed up and are leaving the party. If they never go back, then the Republican Party is finished in the long run.

lets start providing examples of these extremists views, it might be helpful-


1.________________


2._________________


3._________________

1. Anyone who has called out a fellow Republican as a Republican in Name Only for simply agreeing with a Democrat;

this is employed by democrats as well, its a wash.

2. Those Republicans who supported reform of health care in America until it become a major policy issue under the Obama Administration;

not necessarily, and how is that extreme? you could not even get 1 od the rinos on board obama care either, despite obama personal entreaties to do so.....and I would say, those chickens appear to be coming hoom to roost. This was a Democratic bill, and the opposition is the opposition, thats extreme? then the ENTIRE party is extreme as it got not one vote from the gop as I said....

3. Tax hawks who support cutting taxes to the rich and claiming the rich create jobs, and wanting to raise taxes on the working poor;

these are ideological differences wry, its what has separated the parties for, well, as long as we have been a republic.

4. Those who want to deny unemployment benefits and the renewal of UE;

see above. the devil is tin the details, this is and has been a party platform as well.

5. Sen. Minority Leader McConnell for his expressed efforts to nullify the Obama Presidency;

as I said, the the party out of power trys to get them out ands insert themselves, if this is extreme then they both own it.

6. Those who support the five member of the Supreme Court which voted for CU v. FEC;

how about those that sppted the SC decision on Obamacare?

7. Those today opposing comprehensive Immigration Reform;

8. Those opposing comprehensive tax reform;

9. Those who opposed the Dream Act.

same to the above.


I asked for extreme positions........


it appears to me you think the whole party is extreme, if thats the case then I don't get the argument here.

I can say same of the Democratic platform, but I won't, becasue I don't think all platforms of the dems are extreme, I just disagree on many details as to how we fix the issue under debate.

and there is well, for instance, comprehensive tax reform; that is when you lower rates while killing loopholes, some deductions, subsidies, tax breaks etc. who's for or against that again?

 

[Wry Catcher]

10. Those who supported Prop. 8 in CA and the Mormon Church for providing financial support for that amendment to the State Constitution;

11. The NRA and its callous and self serving argument against common sense gun controls;

12. Pat Robertson, though nearly brain dead, still a force for social conservatives;

13. Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann;

14. The Brothers Koch; self serving polluters;

15. Governors of Wisconsin, Ohio and Florida;

16. CPAC

17. The Heritage Foundation

18. Freedom Works

19. Rush Limbaugh

20. Fox News, Sean Hannity and the rest of the "Ain't (Obama, liberals, Democrats, progressives) Awful" talking heads and 'guests'

 

[TemplarKormac]

First of all, it is impossible to weed out the extremists when they comprise such a large percentage of the party. The problem is that the extreme right has control of the party and is dictating the dialogue for the entire party. More reasonable Republicans need to take the party back from these extremists while still understanding that they will be given a voice. The problem is that many reasonable Republicans are just fed up and are leaving the party. If they never go back, then the Republican Party is finished in the long run.

lets start providing examples of these extremists views, it might be helpful-


1.________________


2._________________


3._________________

1. Anyone who has called out a fellow Republican as a Republican in Name Only for simply agreeing with a Democrat;

2. Those Republicans who supported reform of health care in America until it become a major policy issue under the Obama Administration;

3. Tax hawks who support cutting taxes to the rich and claiming the rich create jobs, and wanting to raise taxes on the working poor;

4. Those who want to deny unemployment benefits and the renewal of UE;

5. Sen. Minority Leader McConnell for his expressed efforts to nullify the Obama Presidency;

6. Those who support the five member of the Supreme Court which voted for CU v. FEC;

7. Those today opposing comprehensive Immigration Reform;

8. Those opposing comprehensive tax reform;

9. Those who opposed the Dream Act.

1. That's quite telling, seeing as how you referred to Herman Cain as an 'Uncle Tom' and demonized Sarah Palin.

2. Oh, but you were dumb enough to think it was designed to work at the federal level. Look where your assumptions got you. For all it's worth, Obamacare has been delayed for lack of ability to implement.

3. Socialism. You seem to think that taxing the rich out of existence will create a level playing field for everyone. The reality is if you do, you will kill jobs. Because rich people pay for the jobs most often than not.

4. People need jobs not safety nets.

5. He succeeded. But the Senate vowed to nullify any action of the Republican led house. How exactly do we run a government that way?

6. Oh, so conservative groups can't have their First Amendment rights? No wait! I've heard this one before!

7. Amnesty, not Immigration Reform.

8. Uh, why would you want comprehensive tax reform? Does that mean adding more regulations to the existing overly distended tax code? What a joke.

9. LOL. The Dream Act is a joke. You can't possibly believe that we will allow you to place the needs of children of illegals over the children of American citizens?


Tell me who is the extremist here.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

I see. You're not admitting to being a member of the GOP, nor of the Democratic Party. So why would you find my comments on the current state of the RP amusing or worth an ad hominem? I'm may be off base, but I smell a self righteous curmudgeon whose allegiance is only to himself and enjoys 'hearing' himself 'talk'.

A thoughtful response would either defend the RP (though it is hard to imagine a thoughtful post defending the RP of today) or, in your case, and argument offering an alternative to the DP and the RP.

My how quickly defensive one gets, when the discussion turns to the Democrats. I find that rather humorous myself.

I'm so glad you think it's funny. How about you start a thread on the Democratic Party and point out it's issues. I have picked on both the RP and the Libertarian Party and whiners (like you) only response has been "what about the Democratic Party?".

BTW defending ones assertion is not being "defensive", but nice try to deflect from the issue presented.

Whiners? Surely you jest. Rather, I find it interesting whenever a liberal reaches to grab hold of that mantle in presenting government as the savior to an awe inspiring grateful nation. Whenever you give a select few even GREATER controlling power and ability to dictate (yes dictate ... not influence) their sole ideological view or beliefs OVER the lives of the vast majority of others, there will be even greater division among the people. Your view of "relevancy" is to push others into believing and agreeing in your view for the role of government.

I believe in the rights and the freedoms of the individual to pursue after their own visionary goals for themselves, and never to fear but LEARN from their failures in order to build upon it for greater success. To fight to seek out a way to overcome any obstacle when it presents itself. Granted such determination requires hard work, sacrifice and initiative, not many are willing to own up to. This is where we begin to recognize the individual will and determination of those who fight to succeed, from those who will only write posts complaining about what someone else has accomplished.

You see .... Obama and others have taught many to blame others for not attaining their dreams, never to self analyze what I can do better to FIGHT for my aspirations. I have never recalled a President put so much emphasis into blaming others for their own failures, to show the American people there is always someone else you can blame for the problems you face. To not strive to "man up" (as it were) and overcome the struggles that may lay in your path, to work your way past those hindrances in your life. Rather we have been shown it's far better to sulk, and do nothing but complain, while blaming others for your own choices in life and misfortunes. Government has been seen and accepted as the ultimate bail-out for the troubles we ourselves would rather not be confronted with in handling for ourselves. Why go through the aggravation of owning up to our own individual responsibility, when government can be there to coddle, comfort, and "take care of you". Just cast your cares at the foot of Washington, they will provide what you think you need.... just be sure to elect them in office in exchange, when that time comes around again to do so.

There is a difference between those who strive to seek independence FROM government, and valuing the greater rewards and accomplishments that come from having faced the many difficult challenges to attain it, from those who hand over their problems for government to solve as they depend upon those in Washington as their own provision in life.

 

[Trajan]

10. Those who supported Prop. 8 in CA and the Mormon Church for providing financial support for that amendment to the State Constitution;

11. The NRA and its callous and self serving argument against common sense gun controls;

12. Pat Robertson, though nearly brain dead, still a force for social conservatives;

13. Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann;

14. The Brothers Koch; self serving polluters;

15. Governors of Wisconsin, Ohio and Florida;

16. CPAC

17. The Heritage Foundation

18. Freedom Works

19. Rush Limbaugh

20. Fox News, Sean Hannity and the rest of the "Ain't (Obama, liberals, Democrats, progressives) Awful" talking heads and 'guests'

Ah I see, now we're getting to it;

here is the issue imho- you think the Democratic party owns some moral or ethical high-ground, some how your views are superior in those contexts to the gop's.....

They don't, and neither does the gop. I get that, I don't think you or your party do.



and finally, and this is key- as to say prop 8 and doma and those kind of cultural issues- I think, perhaps that you and I KNOW many here and those opposed to gop/con views on this, don't think there is a argument or an argument can be made in earnest or holds any value, as in a closely held personal values/beliefs that bares some thought and consideration, everything the gop or cons say comes from dark evil place and is not even worthy of genuine, serious consideration.....


Therefore, they're all extremist haters, they can be discarded as "crazies" and that kills the debate right then and also, the media drives this with a slant thats off the charts, even framing a debate its almost always is framed as the good vs. evil, that, is dishonest and intellectually vacuous, you may not like the other sides views but they are, just as important and meaningful and require thought not visceral angst and close mindedness ( and yes the gop does own some of this too) .......and that, really, is the issue.