Oh Look, ignoring another State

[RetiredGySgt]

This is illegal. The Constitution is clear. The legal actions and papers and documents of one State must be honored by another State.

Further why would they deny the birth certificates? oh wait I know why, they haven't a case unless they make women look like children in order to make false misleading accusations.

We are not talking about records recorded by this group, we are talking about LEGAL documents proving Birth from another State. Texas is so desperate to violate these peoples rights that they are now denying legal records in a witch hunt.

Where is Jillian to explain to us how State documents do not in fact have to be honored by another State and GunnyL to remind us that " the ends justify the means".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080503/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

A letter written by FLDS elder Willie Jessop says Texas officials are rejecting Utah-issued birth certificates and other documents as "fake."

 

[Dogger]

The constitution requires Full Faith and Credit be given to the public records of other states. That means official Utah records, if properly certified, are as admissible in Texas courts as are official Texas records to prove the matter in question.

That does not mean the records are dispositive of the issue; it only means they are admissible. Evidence that contradicts them can also be admitted, and that creates an issue of fact for the judge to resolve.

Try this: get a false certificate of your own death, and then sue to collect your life insurance. Will the judge grant you a judgment for the benefits, or will he jail your ass and order the records corrected?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The constitution requires Full Faith and Credit be given to the public records of other states. That means official Utah records, if properly certified, are as admissible in Texas courts as are official Texas records to prove the matter in question.

That does not mean the records are dispositive of the issue; it only means they are admissible. Evidence that contradicts them can also be admitted, and that creates an issue of fact for the judge to resolve.

Try this: get a false certificate of your own death, and then sue to collect your life insurance. Will the judge grant you a judgment for the benefits, or will he jail your ass and order the records corrected?

Except that is NOT what is happening, Texas is refusing to acknowledge LEGAL birth Certificate from Utah, or did you miss the part where these people even petitioned a Governor they know does not like them?

Texas is fabricating information because they know they have not got a leg to stand on and eventually people will wise up to the fact the State had no business seizing almost 500 supposed children, of whom probably the last 30 to 40 are adults.

If one is peddling fake birth certificates and other documents they do not petition a Governor they know does not like them for redress. He is going to be able to find out rather quickly if those documents are in fact fake.

Texas thinks they can just ignore the law because the do not like these people. They are digging a hole, the problem is there are a bunch of people that think " the ends justify the means" in this case.

False report caused the raid, fabricated information at the raid continued the raid. The State made up a bogus excuse to seize children in no danger, claimed the mothers were victims and tried to get them on their side, when that failed they booted the mothers out, at one point seizing cell phones so they could not call for help.

The State took over 400 children they claimed were in danger and turned them over to VOLUNTEERS in a stadium with little to no supervision. The children are in danger because of the actions of the State of Texas, even their own doctors admit it.

 

[Dogger]

Of course I understood it. That's the way I roll.

Whether you call them official records or legal records, any government record stands as admissible proof in court. But that does not mean the records cannot be challenged. Fraud and mistakes occur even in legal, official records. Records are only as good as the people providing the information.

If unchallenged, the Utah birth certificates prove the date and circumstances of the birth. Like DNA tests or fingerprints, such records usually prove a matter with certainity. But they can still be rebutted by other evidence.

Imagine the mother had named you as the child's father even though you had never met her. She could easily say you were in Iraq, and out of reach. If the doctor saw no reason to dispute her, he would name you as the father and file the paperwork with the State. Would you say that the fact of your paternity could not disputed?

 

[Swamp Fox]

Birth certificates are only as good as the people providing the information. In the case of the FLDS, I would wait until DNA comes trhough to see who is who's kid. These people do have a bit of a track record for lying to law enforcement (try 50 years worth).

 

[RetiredGySgt]

More of the same, you guys do not even understand the path you are headed down. Basicly it is fine with you that the State of Texas deny these people their rights and ignore Constitutional law because " they are bad people".

Let me make a suggestion, if they are so bad, WHY does the State have to make shit up?

Again for the slow, if they have fake birth certificates and marriage licenses then the LAST place they would go is to the Governor of Utah for help. That State dislikes them more than Texas.

But feel good all you like, when the State decides YOU are a problem just remember you thought it fine when it was someone you did not like.

 

[Ravi]

I think they call it bleeding the pig.

What exactly did they ask the Gov to do?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I think they call it bleeding the pig.

What exactly did they ask the Gov to do?

Read the article. Texas is claiming all the birth certificates and other documents from Utah are fake , they are not "contesting them" they have refused to include them. The FLDS is asking the Governor of Utah to step in and enforce the rights of his State or risk the precedent that other States can just ignore Utah documents as Texas has done.

 

[Ravi]

Read the article. Texas is claiming all the birth certificates and other documents from Utah are fake , they are not "contesting them" they have refused to include them. The FLDS is asking the Governor of Utah to step in and enforce the rights of his State or risk the precedent that other States can just ignore Utah documents as Texas has done.

I did read it. It doesn't give the details of exactly what he is asking be done. It sounds as if he is asking the governor of Utah to just give a blanket endorsement of the documents without verifying if they are actually legit or not.

 

[Swamp Fox]

More of the same, you guys do not even understand the path you are headed down. Basicly it is fine with you that the State of Texas deny these people their rights and ignore Constitutional law because " they are bad people".

When you use the legal system to obtain search warrants and conduct investigations you are not violating anyone's rights. You are using the system the way it was designed to be used. If it turns out, down the road, that errors were made, there is also mechanisms in place for restitution. However, it is highly doubtful that errors were made.

Let me make a suggestion, if they are so bad, WHY does the State have to make shit up?

I haven't seen anything the state of Texas has made up. Could you be more specific?

Again for the slow, if they have fake birth certificates and marriage licenses then the LAST place they would go is to the Governor of Utah for help. That State dislikes them more than Texas.

Again, for the slower, THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE PERSON PROVIDING THE INFORMATION. Also birth certificates can be changed, as in the case of my kids. My 2nd wife adopted them and the state issued a new birth certificate with her listed as the mother. So, if the lying ass people in the FLDS stated they had adopted the kids, they could change the information on the fucking certificate. Do I have to draw it for you in crayon???????

But feel good all you like, when the State decides YOU are a problem just remember you thought it fine when it was someone you did not like.

This is NOT a case of the state overreaching, this is a case of the state taking appropriate action in a timely and LEGAL fashion.

 

[Swamp Fox]

Read the article. Texas is claiming all the birth certificates and other documents from Utah are fake , they are not "contesting them" they have refused to include them. The FLDS is asking the Governor of Utah to step in and enforce the rights of his State or risk the precedent that other States can just ignore Utah documents as Texas has done.

Considering that the FLDS people were in law enforcement and community leadership it is ENTIRELY possible that the documents are tainted. DNA will provide more PROOF of birth responsibility then any piece of paper.

Are you familiar with this group at all or are you automatically assuming that their rights are being trampled because it fits your worldview?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Considering that the FLDS people were in law enforcement and community leadership it is ENTIRELY possible that the documents are tainted. DNA will provide more PROOF of birth responsibility then any piece of paper.

Are you familiar with this group at all or are you automatically assuming that their rights are being trampled because it fits your worldview?

Ahh yes why not just take Jillian's take and claim I am a child rapist and polygmyst myself? Makes it so much easier for YOUR world view then right?

NO ONE has rights if EVERYONE does not have the same EXACT rights all the time.

Claiming these people would think the Governor of Utah would just "believe" them is hilarious. You should start a stand up routine.

The State had no right to seize all the children. Assuming the original complaint they at most had a right to seize Girls age 12 to 17. There is NO evidence what so ever that any child under the age of 12 is or was in any danger. And they had no right to seize the boys.

Add in the fact they are now seizing women with birth certificates that show they are 18 or older and you have even more ignorance on the part of the State.

Utah maintains records, it is a simple matter to verify if a provide birth certificate is properly registered in the State and belongs to the person it is attested to belong to. The State IS violating all kind of rights.

In fact their own doctors admit seizing the children and removing their mothers is in fact harmful to those children.

You deserve what is coming.

 

[Swamp Fox]

Ahh yes why not just take Jillian's take and claim I am a child rapist and polygmyst myself? Makes it so much easier for YOUR world view then right?

No, because I know you're not one.

NO ONE has rights if EVERYONE does not have the same EXACT rights all the time.

And their rights were protected by using the court system. There is a principle called good faith. If the police act in good faith and the information later turns out to be erroneous, the warrant can still be valid, based on the circumstances.

Claiming these people would think the Governor of Utah would just "believe" them is hilarious. You should start a stand up routine.

I never claimed this at all. I have been stating that the information provided on the certificates could have been falsely provided. Did you notice that Utah's Governor is not exactly jumping to the defense of that paperwork? Could it be that he knows the information provided is suspect?

The State had no right to seize all the children. Assuming the original complaint they at most had a right to seize Girls age 12 to 17. There is NO evidence what so ever that any child under the age of 12 is or was in any danger. And they had no right to seize the boys.

Based on the information provided in the call, no. Based on what was observed and information they developed at the site, yes they could. If I obtain a search warrant looking for fake credit cards you have been making and find methamphetamine in your house, I am entitled to seize the meth as well as the credit cards.

Add in the fact they are now seizing women with birth certificates that show they are 18 or older and you have even more ignorance on the part of the State.

Once again, we're back to WHO provided that information on the certificate.

Utah maintains records, it is a simple matter to verify if a provide birth certificate is properly registered in the State and belongs to the person it is attested to belong to. The State IS violating all kind of rights.

Utah's records are based upon what is told to them. Since the FLDS is in a self contained community where all of the "city" and other government workers were FLDS members, who is to say the FLDS told the truth. They have been lying about things since the 1950s (at least).

In fact their own doctors admit seizing the children and removing their mothers is in fact harmful to those children.

So is leaving them to become sex toys for a bunch of perverted old men. In this case, the mothers are not the nurturing and supporting types so I would have to disagree with the Docs.

You deserve what is coming.

I understand your concern about the state overstepping its boundaries, but I do not see that being the case here. Since I work in law enforcement as a sex crimes investigator and being familiar with the FLDS, I haven't seen the state stretching anything yet.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The Governor is hesitant because, unlike Texas , he may feel a need to investigate even if he dislikes the sect. Texas has no evidence what so ever any abuse occurred. The entire claim is that the children were being brain washed. This from a cursory investigation. No evidence of abuse at all. The boys being removed again by claiming they were being "taught" to be abusers.

The State does NOT have the power to remove children because they dislike a religion and that is EXACTLY what they have done. Ever hear of the First amendment? How about the 4th and 5th?

In fact no claim has been made what so ever of physical abuse of any child under the age of 12 and the only physical abuse alleged at 12 or older is girls.

It is simple. The State does not agree with the religious teachings of this church and illegally seized the children on a false pretext. They are now using the Unconstitutional Family court system to force the families to prove the unprovable. That they haven't secretly brainwashed the children.

The State, not the families or the church are the ones that have endangered these children. Foster care is PROVEN to increase the risk of molestation and sexual and physical abuse of children. The State even used volunteers with little to no supervision for weeks to care for these children.

Add in they first tried to convince the mothers to tell them what they wanted to hear and when they refused, seized their cellphones and then kicked them out, this after claiming the women were in danger.

Then a single Judge ILLEGALLY held a supposed hearing for over 400 children in mass denying due process to the children and the families and hearing only the testimony of a woman that fabricated the brainwashing charge to begin with.

Don't believe me? ASK the children's lawyers. The next higher Court refused to do its job and review the case IN COURT , ordering the foster care arrangements and then saying ohh, ya next week we will hear your complaints.

There is nothing "Good Faith" about any of this. The Local, State and federal authorities went into an unarmed peaceful community with armored cars and SWAT teams. The Group has cooperated with the search warrant and posed no threat to anyone.

Lets review shall we? They found some beds in a HUGE Temple, the beds were made and well cared for. No evidence of anything what so ever other than people sleeping on them. The cops claim to have found a single hair and then surmised from this single hair that the beds were rape machines to consumate illegal marriages with underage girls to old men. No evidence at all.

This is a kangaroo court designed to steal these peoples children because of the religion they believe in. THAT is illegal.

Lets recap. The State claims the children are brainwashed simply by being members of this religion. In family courts the families have to prove they are innocent. So what? The mothers have to agree to leave the religion to get their children back based on the crap that has been fed us so far. And no insurance even that will get the back. All supported by an unconstitutional court system where you are guilty unless you prove your innocent.

 

[BrianH]

THEY ARE RESIDENTS OF TEXAS....and breaking TEXAS LAW... Doesn't matter where they're born.

As far as abuse. A sect girl, under the age of 18 gave birth the other day. Over half of the girls between the ages of 14 and 17 that were pulled from the compound were pregnant of have been pregnant before. Hmm...nothing illegal?? Oh yeah, considering it's illegal to have sex with a minor.

And I read up a little on this sect. For those of you who claim that they don't follow Jeffs any more because he's in jail....This compound was established for the "Best of the Best" of this faith. I'll find the link. People were selected for this compound based on their highly held belief in Jeffs. People in other compounds would be pulled from their homes at any time...often not in time to say goodbye to their families and sent here because of their willingness to follow Jeffs. I'll find a link and post it.

 

[Swamp Fox]

RGS,
If you knew the history of the FLDS, that in and of it self would be probable cause in most states to obtain a warrant and seize all of the kids. It's not a religion, it's a campground for pedophiles to have their way with as many kids as they feel like fucking.

As far as Brian said, most of the 14 to 17 year olds were or have been pregnant. What state do you know of where that is legal?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

THEY ARE RESIDENTS OF TEXAS....and breaking TEXAS LAW... Doesn't matter where they're born.

As far as abuse. A sect girl, under the age of 18 gave birth the other day. Over half of the girls between the ages of 14 and 17 that were pulled from the compound were pregnant of have been pregnant before. Hmm...nothing illegal?? Oh yeah, considering it's illegal to have sex with a minor.

And I read up a little on this sect. For those of you who claim that they don't follow Jeffs any more because he's in jail....This compound was established for the "Best of the Best" of this faith. I'll find the link. People were selected for this compound based on their highly held belief in Jeffs. People in other compounds would be pulled from their homes at any time...often not in time to say goodbye to their families and sent here because of their willingness to follow Jeffs. I'll find a link and post it.

Which has nothing to do with anything we are discussing. Unless you are now agreeing that the 1st Amendment is only binding when convenient for you?

 

[BrianH]

Exactly... If you percieve that to be legal, maybe your kids aren't safe at your house. If I go to Utah and break a law, I'll be arrested. It doesn't matter if I was born in Texas or not. These people are living in Texas and are/were breaking Texas law.

 

[BrianH]

Which has nothing to do with anything we are discussing. Unless you are now agreeing that the 1st Amendment is only binding when convenient for you?

Our Consitution gives you rights until you break one of them, then you loose your rights...It's called the Justice System. THey have the right to practice their religion (which is not what this case is about), but the second they endanger someone elses life, or break the law, then they will lose their rights just like anyone else. Under your doctrine, I could start a religion called Molest Little Kids for Jesus and say that it's protected under the 1st Amendment.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

RGS,
If you knew the history of the FLDS, that in and of it self would be probable cause in most states to obtain a warrant and seize all of the kids. It's not a religion, it's a campground for pedophiles to have their way with as many kids as they feel like fucking.

As far as Brian said, most of the 14 to 17 year olds were or have been pregnant. What state do you know of where that is legal?

Yet that does not happen in ANY state except Texas. And after a fake call and in the end the State has as its claim brainwashing.

Once again EVERYONE must have the SAME rights ALL the time.