Obama's plan is to redistribute the wealth.

[AVG-JOE]

Hmmm... starting with people who don't pay any taxes, that suddenly start getting tax money back under Obama's plan??? Hmmm.. people gaining entitlements at the expense of others, such as universal healthcare... hmmm....


Yep indeed... drawing something from the government, that the government controls thru confiscation and redistribution

Truly the American way dreamed up by our founding fathers

Please provide a link to a document that shows Obama's tax plan will provide a regular government check to poor folks just for being poor...

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

Yes it is. Except nobody's calling for anyone to "soak the rich"

After over thirty years of pillaging the middle class, it is hardly immoral to return some of the booty which the superwealthy have bleed from this economy's middle class via foolish taxation and trade policies.

In fact, to continue with these policies is the immoral act.

Exactly! What is fair about keeping things 'unfair'?

I do NOT subscribe to the idea that the middle class should somehow get reparations from the wealthy, but the first rule of accounting is to 'stop the bleeding'.

It is time for a fair and simple tax code in America.

-Joe

 

[pegwinn]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, you don't believe in a progressive income tax system? Is this your argument?

Care

I don't believe in taxation based on income. The argument against it boils down to privacy, a bloated government agency, a maze of rules no one can comprehend well, comprehensibly, and fairness for everyone.

Yes it is. Except nobody's calling for anyone to "soak the rich" My term. You may call it whatever you like.

After over thirty years of pillaging the middle class, it is hardly immoral to return some of the booty which the superwealthy have bleed from this economy's middle class via foolish taxation and trade policies.

In fact, to continue with these policies is the immoral act.

I agree with your last statement and note that your term "pillaging" is as much hyperbole as my term "soak". Fair enough? It still sounds like class envy at least to me.

 

[pegwinn]

I think you are being silly suggesting anyone would support taxation based on sexuality, race or gender - and I believe that you know that. Just like alpo, and I did stipulate "extreme" to make what should have been a self evident point. I think you got the point right?

As far as fair tax policy goes, I believe that you and I are pretty much on the same page here Phil...

Check this link:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...he-consequences-in-the-future.html#post840798

-Joe

I read your post and agree that it would be far better than what we have today. However, today's code started simple enough and grew, and grew, and grew, yadablahetc.

For all the reasons I mentioned in my post to Care, try this one on for size.
Fairtax.org

The travesty is that it has been introduced for like nine years I think. It always dies in committee no matter the party in charge.

It aint perfect, but then again, nothing is.

-Phil

 

[sealybobo]

Hey, but he's no socialist.

Breitbart.tv Obama Tells Tax-Burdened Plumber the Plan is to ‘Spread the Wealth Around’

Yes, Reagan & Bush both distributed the countries wealth to the top 1% and Obama is here to RE distribute it. Got a problem with getting some money back Allie? I didn't think so.

And meanwhile, the rich bankers get to enjoy socialism, Palin up in Alaska is using socialism with her oil taxes and GW Bush used socialism to build the new texas rangers stadium, then sold it for a profit. So he is a socialist too.

The GOP uses buzz words like socialist to appeal to ignorant voters.

 

[del]

The GOP uses buzz words like socialist to appeal to ignorant voters.

and yet, so far you've resisted.
bravo

 

[sealybobo]

and yet, so far you've resisted.
bravo

So far Dellila.

 

[editec]

Fans, the consumer economy is 70% of the GNP.

Guess what happens when the consumers stop buying stuff?

The economy we're having right now is what happens.

As far as Maine street is concerned we've been in a recession/depression for the last eight years.

Time to fix that disconnect we've had from reality, or we'll continue to watch the deficit go up and this nation go down.

If you're super rich and you don't want to pay US taxes, please leave.

We'll get by.

The numero uno problem this nation is facing is the dwindling purchasing power of the working folks.

It is surely not that the wealthy don't have enough money to supply the supply side, rather it is the fact that the conumsers don't have enough to dough to keep up the demand side.

 

[Turboswede]

Do you guys pay zero taxes?

I certainly don't. Do you guys get money taken out of your paychecks every week?

Here's what the media (left wing included) isn't telling you guys.

You know when you go to a job and you fill out the W2 forms and you declare yourself head of household, or a dependent, etc.? That basically determines the amount of "witholding", i.e. payroll tax which is a form of income tax, that someone pays. So when you get your paycheck at the end of the week, and you see the amount deducted for taxes, that's what every single working American pays. At the end of the year, you take your W2 to the accountant and show him what you've earned and what you've paid in payroll taxes. After all of the deductions and tax credits you get, most of us get a tax refund check or don't have any income tax liability. That's what Sean Hannity means about not paying any taxes.

EVERYONE pays payroll tax.

Under Obama, the amount of money you pay in payroll taxes stays the same. You earn $769.23 a week, you get 14.5% of that taken out in payroll taxes. Then you have your FICA (social security and medicare) deducted. Your net pay is $598.39 per week. Then let's say you get health insurance that costs $100 per week. So your net pay is $498.39 per week.

At the end of the year, your gross income of $40,000 goes up against tax credits and deductions. If you're single, you automatically get a $5,450 deduction and let's say you have $2000 in extra credits and deductions from using your car to drive to and from work to having a child, your new gross salary is $32,550. Under Obama, your new income tax bracket is 11.4%. So your final tax bill due to the government is $3710.70. But you've already paid $5800 in taxes to the government, so you get a tax refund of $2,089.30.

Under McCain, your tax bracket is 14.5%. So your tax bill due to the government is $4719.75. But you've already paid $5800 in taxes, so you get a tax refund of $1080.25.

Currently, under Bush, your tax bracket is 15%. So your tax bill due to the government is $4882.50. You get a tax refund under Bush of $917.50.

Many people already get a check from the IRS from the government. So all Obama is doing is increasing that check that someone in the middle class gets. This is with an average income of $40,000 a year.

Now the trickle-up theory states that the extra $2089.90 that you have in your pocket is money that you're going to spend. Under Obama you have $1172.40 than you would have under Bush. So the trickle up theory says with that $1172.40, you go out and buy new clothes. You go out and take your wife out for dinner. You go out and buy things and you spend that money on the economy. Now multiply the $2089.90 by 100 million people who earn around $40,000 a year. You're talking about over $2 trillion that people are going to spend on the economy. That's more jobs that corporations have to create, that's more supplies from other corporations that businesses have to order... that's increased demand because people have more money.

Nice job David, I have been bringing up FICA and Medicare but all people seem to want to talk about is FIT. Remember the federal gas tax too, that hits working Americans too.

Not to detract from your argument but there are some folks who don’t pay payroll taxes. I would be very surprised if Paris Hilton has or ever will pay payroll taxes. Only folks who work for a living get the opportunity to pay payroll taxes.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I read your post and agree that it would be far better than what we have today. However, today's code started simple enough and grew, and grew, and grew, yadablahetc.

For all the reasons I mentioned in my post to Care, try this one on for size.
Fairtax.org

The travesty is that it has been introduced for like nine years I think. It always dies in committee no matter the party in charge.

It aint perfect, but then again, nothing is.

-Phil

Thanks for the link... it is a bit more complicated and therefore subject to abuse than I would like to see, but I understand baby steps and it is definitely going in the right direction.

-Joe

 

[Care4all]

I don't believe in taxation based on income. The argument against it boils down to privacy, a bloated government agency, a maze of rules no one can comprehend well, comprehensibly, and fairness for everyone.



I agree with your last statement and note that your term "pillaging" is as much hyperbole as my term "soak". Fair enough? It still sounds like class envy at least to me.

ok pegwinn, now i know where you stand....at least i think i do?

you think the Fair tax is the way to go which is a consumption tax...

My concerns with such is how real estate taxes would be paid and who would get these taxes, the feds or the local state gvt for schools?

Another concern would be whether companies would really price their goods lower since their own indirect tax reductions would lower their own cost of goods so to say, so that when we do have to pay 25% more in taxes it would not necessarily be 25% more for the product....this is hard to explain...i know i am not doing a good job of it....

But my main concern, is that i do not see how this really helps us reign in congressional deficit spending which IS the real problem...even with the financial crunch we are in, this IS the real problem with the credit crunch, along with a kazillion other things that stemmed from the housing boom and creative so to say, financial tools...

Here is why...

-Congress already IGNORES what revenues we bring in tax revenues, continues to spend big, and continues to borrow this money from foreigners...

-And, congress at any time can just raise the fair tax to a higher and higher and higher percentage of purchases....nothing stopping that...

There is no doubt that we have a problem with our taxes...all of them -not just our income taxes and not just federal, but state and local as well and reform needs to be considered imo, however there is no plan that does not have it's own problems that would need addressing....

The main one is none of them prevents congress from taxing us more and none of them stops congress from deficit spending, which i believe is the MAIN problem....more important than who gets taxed at what percent for whatever portion of their income...

The progressive tax does not penalize the wealthy and give more to the poor...it goes by the income one makes for that portion of their income...ooooo tongue twister...

what i mean is that IF the lowest tax bracket up to 8 k is taxed at 10%, then the poor man making only 8k is taxed at 10% for that, the guy in the middle for his first 8k is taxed at that rate and for the wealthiest among us, for his first 8k he is also taxed the 10%...NO ONE gets MORE than the other, same with the next bracket up, if the poor person makes it there, he will pay 15% on what he makes over the 8 k up to the next bracket hike, same with the wealthiest and same with the guy in the next tax bracket up.... and so on and so forth.....no one gets any more of a break on taxes than the next guy making more for every segment of income in the tax rate brackets....

This is not as progressive as one would think...if those in higher tax brackets were taxed for their entire income at the rate of their bracket then this would be MUCH MORE progressive, but the way it is done, is not....again, in my opinion.

Care

 

[DiveCon]

bullcrap divecon...

we are NOT TALKING ABOUT A BUSINESS, we are talking about an INDIVIDUAL'S income aren't we....?

care

if you dont think that plays a part in the bottom line of a business, then you are extremely naive

 

[DiveCon]

Fans, the consumer economy is 70% of the GNP.

Guess what happens when the consumers stop buying stuff?

The economy we're having right now is what happens.

As far as Maine street is concerned we've been in a recession/depression for the last eight years.

Time to fix that disconnect we've had from reality, or we'll continue to watch the deficit go up and this nation go down.

If you're super rich and you don't want to pay US taxes, please leave.

We'll get by.

The numero uno problem this nation is facing is the dwindling purchasing power of the working folks.

It is surely not that the wealthy don't have enough money to supply the supply side, rather it is the fact that the conumsers don't have enough to dough to keep up the demand side.

yeah, so lets raise taxes on those with the ability to consume so they have less to spend
yeah, THAT will do wonders for the economy


Hint: the boat luxury tax in 1992
what happened?
they raised taxes on boats, the people that would normally buy them couldnt afford them, so they stayed with their older boats, the boat builders couldnt sell what they had built, they then had to lay off the workers, and some even went out of business

yeah, in a poor economic time the best thing to do is tax people more

 

[Care4all]

yeah, so lets raise taxes on those with the ability to consume so they have less to spend
yeah, THAT will do wonders for the economy


Hint: the boat luxury tax in 1992
what happened?
they raised taxes on boats, the people that would normally buy them couldnt afford them, so they stayed with their older boats, the boat builders couldnt sell what they had built, they then had to lay off the workers, and some even went out of business

yeah, in a poor economic time the best thing to do is tax people more

no, the best thing to do is to give the poor paying taxes or middle class paying taxes some of their taxes back, they will spend near every dime in the american economy, in less time than any of the other tax groups and immediately spur sales, which then will spur the hiring of more people and will increase tax revenues from the increased business growth....

care

 

[sealybobo]

if you dont think that plays a part in the bottom line of a business, then you are extremely naive

Nobles need not pay taxes.

Or Leona Helmsley's quote that the rich do not pay taxes.

I can't wait to get me some of Dive's $.

 

[DiveCon]

no, the best thing to do is to give the poor paying taxes or middle class paying taxes some of their taxes back, they will spend near every dime in the american economy, in less time than any of the other tax groups and immediately spur sales, which then will spur the hiring of more people and will increase tax revenues from the increased business growth....

care

so, you are disagreing with Obama, he wants to raise taxes
and btw, about 40% dont pay taxes now
so you can forget about giving them "their taxes back"

 

[sealybobo]

so, you are disagreing with Obama, he wants to raise taxes
and btw, about 40% dont pay taxes now
so you can forget about giving them "their taxes back"

Yea, the top 10%

 

[AVG-JOE]

so, you are disagreing with Obama, he wants to raise taxes
and btw, about 40% dont pay taxes now
so you can forget about giving them "their taxes back"

What is this '40%' that don't pay taxes you and a couple of other people keep bringing up?

I am about as low on the income scale as one can be and still enjoy a brew or ten during the debates, and I pay taxes... between $5,000 and $10,000 each and every year.

I know I make more than some in this country but it will take some serious evidence from more than one source to convince me I am among the top 60% of wage earners in America.

Let's see some stats to show that 40% of Americans don't pay taxes!

I'm assuming that if the 40% are the ones who have accountants and lawyers on staff you would be as miffed as me regarding the unfairness of that scenario...

-Joe

 

[DiveCon]

Yea, the top 10%

keep believing that

 

[WillowTree]

It's like Huckabee says. The fair tax is the way to go. If we had a fair tax we would need no congress. Congress exists to figure out who they are gonna levy taxes on. Who is to be punished.. How true, and the Dems clearly want to punish success. How strange.