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I thought that in this nation we were all to be treated as equal under the law... in this case, we are not. If that asshole, kills me, my family will be lucky if he serves 7 years. If he kills my gay neighbor, he's likely to get life without the possibility of parole, if not the death sentence.
Immie
and this is why i feel this law is a crock of shit.....if a guy robs a 7-11 and shots the clerk dead for the hell of it he might 25 to life with time off for good behavior....BUT if he calls him an ethnic slur before he shoots him he then will get life without parole.....BULL FUCKING SHIT...he should get the MAXIMUM sentence because he killed a HUMAN BEING ....there should be ZERO tolerance for violence perpetrated against ANYONE....period....
There are many mitigating factors that come into play when prosecuting a crime. Pre-meditation, prior criminal record, age, intent.........now hate crime is added as an additional factor
and this is why i feel this law is a crock of shit.....if a guy robs a 7-11 and shots the clerk dead for the hell of it he might 25 to life with time off for good behavior....BUT if he calls him an ethnic slur before he shoots him he then will get life without parole.....BULL FUCKING SHIT...he should get the MAXIMUM sentence because he killed a HUMAN BEING ....there should be ZERO tolerance for violence perpetrated against ANYONE....period....
There are many mitigating factors that come into play when prosecuting a crime. Pre-meditation, prior criminal record, age, intent.........now hate crime is added as an additional factor
What violent crime is not a hate crime?
Why play favorites with the families of victims that fit certain demographics and tell the families of those victims who do not fit into certain demographics that their loved ones, though just as dead, really didn't matter as much as the others?
Immie
There are many mitigating factors that come into play when prosecuting a crime. Pre-meditation, prior criminal record, age, intent.........now hate crime is added as an additional factor
What violent crime is not a hate crime?
Why play favorites with the families of victims that fit certain demographics and tell the families of those victims who do not fit into certain demographics that their loved ones, though just as dead, really didn't matter as much as the others?
Immie
There are plenty of violent crimes committed that are predicated on simple, bloodless indifference to the suffering of the victim. Somebody gets in the way of a robbery, someone is in the wrong place during a drive-by, someone walks in on a break in...the list is pretty endless. Mugging isn't a hate crime, the criminal wants the purse, carjacking is not a hate crime, the criminal wanted the car.
What violent crime is not a hate crime?
Why play favorites with the families of victims that fit certain demographics and tell the families of those victims who do not fit into certain demographics that their loved ones, though just as dead, really didn't matter as much as the others?
Immie
There are plenty of violent crimes committed that are predicated on simple, bloodless indifference to the suffering of the victim. Somebody gets in the way of a robbery, someone is in the wrong place during a drive-by, someone walks in on a break in...the list is pretty endless. Mugging isn't a hate crime, the criminal wants the purse, carjacking is not a hate crime, the criminal wanted the car.
Smartass! Who asked you?
But, those are not the crimes we are discussing here either. We're talking about beating a man to death kind of crimes. Why should someone get a longer sentence for beating Bobbi with an I [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCK6dMTtSmE&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Phil Vassar - Bobbi With An I[/ame] than he would Bob the Redneck?
Immie
PS Man, that is the first time I have watched the video on that... It sure gives a different context to the song.
There are plenty of violent crimes committed that are predicated on simple, bloodless indifference to the suffering of the victim. Somebody gets in the way of a robbery, someone is in the wrong place during a drive-by, someone walks in on a break in...the list is pretty endless. Mugging isn't a hate crime, the criminal wants the purse, carjacking is not a hate crime, the criminal wanted the car.
Smartass! Who asked you?
But, those are not the crimes we are discussing here either. We're talking about beating a man to death kind of crimes. Why should someone get a longer sentence for beating Bobbi with an I [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCK6dMTtSmE&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Phil Vassar - Bobbi With An I[/ame] than he would Bob the Redneck?
Immie
PS Man, that is the first time I have watched the video on that... It sure gives a different context to the song.
You did
And we didn't specify "what kinds of crimes," as the premise of the argument was that no violent crimes were committed dispassionately. But they are, some of them.
From the song, "...so we live and let live..."
And if a redneck Bobby would live and let the Bobbi with an I live, to the point of advocating his rights in a song (and seeing the need to do so), it seems it is a relevant issue. As for why, see the definition of terrorism.
BTW, thank you for the vid. I gain more and more respect for country music every year.
There are many mitigating factors that come into play when prosecuting a crime. Pre-meditation, prior criminal record, age, intent.........now hate crime is added as an additional factor
There are plenty of violent crimes committed that are predicated on simple, bloodless indifference to the suffering of the victim. Somebody gets in the way of a robbery, someone is in the wrong place during a drive-by, someone walks in on a break in...the list is pretty endless. Mugging isn't a hate crime, the criminal wants the purse, carjacking is not a hate crime, the criminal wanted the car.
bunch of shit....if i intentionally beat up a guy who happens to be gay and say i kill him....i should get the maximum sentence....it should not be more just because i called him a fag when i killed him....he is no more of a human than anyone else... if you intentionally hurt another person or kill them the sentence should be the max....period and no time off for good behavior....every minute served....
I thought that in this nation we were all to be treated as equal under the law... in this case, we are not. If that asshole, kills me, my family will be lucky if he serves 7 years. If he kills my gay neighbor, he's likely to get life without the possibility of parole, if not the death sentence.
Immie
and this is why i feel this law is a crock of shit.....if a guy robs a 7-11 and shots the clerk dead for the hell of it he might 25 to life with time off for good behavior....BUT if he calls him an ethnic slur before he shoots him he then will get life without parole.....BULL FUCKING SHIT...he should get the MAXIMUM sentence because he killed a HUMAN BEING ....there should be ZERO tolerance for violence perpetrated against ANYONE....period....
There are many mitigating factors that come into play when prosecuting a crime. Pre-meditation, prior criminal record, age, intent.........now hate crime is added as an additional factor
bunch of shit....if i intentionally beat up a guy who happens to be gay and say i kill him....i should get the maximum sentence....it should not be more just because i called him a fag when i killed him....he is no more of a human than anyone else... if you intentionally hurt another person or kill them the sentence should be the max....period and no time off for good behavior....every minute served....
I agree- people should not get leniency just because their motives were not directed towards someones race, sexual orientation, etc..
BUT- if you beat up some random guy, with no other motive than the fact that he was gay, or of a particular race or religion, etc, then the "motive" is absolutely sociopathic in nature, and the person who committed the offense should be considered a far greater danger to society as a whole, than the typical violent offender.
snipped for brevity's sake
I agree with the "live and let live". What I don't agree with is the idea that all things being equal, one crime against an individual of a particular race, creed or sexual preference is more deserving of punishment than the same crime against a victim who does not fit the politically correct idea of a protected class.
Imme
I agree with the "live and let live". What I don't agree with is the idea that all things being equal, one crime against an individual of a particular race, creed or sexual preference is more deserving of punishment than the same crime against a victim who does not fit the politically correct idea of a protected class.
Imme
It's not politically correctness that is the issue here.
One injured person's worth is not being put above another injured person's worth, whatsoever.
The worth that is being punished harder is the motivation, and threat to society that a person poses. The motivation to injure someone just because they are... say... a muslim- it is not rational. I mean, people can have thoughts and suspicions, and all that- this is not about thought patrol.. Its about controlling one's actions, and impulse control. So it is not a big deal at all if someone sees a muslim and thinks that they might be a terrorist.. But it is a big deal if that person sees a muslim and just goes for the jugular, based on the sole fact or premise that the person is of a certain religion.. That is psychotic!!!
It's like someone killing me, just seeing me out in a store parking lot with my kid, not seeing a ring, and guessing that I am a single mom. (I am actually divorced, and my son's dad died a few years ago) So this crazy lunatic runs over and starts shooting at me, based on his own fucked up beliefs that all single moms are whores who are on welfare and all this shit. So then, there I am dead, and for what? Because some deranged asshole had poor impulse control and a pathological hate for a certain group of people (single moms)?? I would not have died that day if that guy didn't hate my perceived "social group"- that being the group of single mothers, and although I personally feel that the guy is more than welcome to feel whatever way he wants to towards single moms, I also EXPECT him to control his impulses and not pull out the glock and try to kill me. Thats LUNACY.
If it was some neighbor of mine, who came over thinking I was screwing around with their husband or something (think desperate housewives), and killed her husband, at LEAST there is some motive there, that her husband was cheating on her, and a deep set personal attachment that would have easily and reasonably been perceived to have been damaged by the infidelity. (perceived infidelity- I dont fuck anyone's husbands, lol) This is a crime of passion, because she LOVED him and (she thinks) he betrayed her..
A hate crime is spawned out of cold and pure hate.. nothing more..
A carjacker or mugger might kill someone and that is definitely awful and cold, too- but it is not spawned out of hate, it is usually someone scared of getting caught for committing the carjacking or mugging, or home invasion, or whatever, so it is a crime of necessity, rather than a crime of hate. Muggings and carjackings and thievery is all spawned from necessity, whatever the underlying problem might be- the person is on drugs, or whatever. Necessity is different from hate, and hate is different from passion.
I agree with the "live and let live". What I don't agree with is the idea that all things being equal, one crime against an individual of a particular race, creed or sexual preference is more deserving of punishment than the same crime against a victim who does not fit the politically correct idea of a protected class.
Imme
It's not politically correctness that is the issue here.
One injured person's worth is not being put above another injured person's worth, whatsoever.
The worth that is being punished harder is the motivation, and threat to society that a person poses. The motivation to injure someone just because they are... say... a muslim- it is not rational. I mean, people can have thoughts and suspicions, and all that- this is not about thought patrol.. Its about controlling one's actions, and impulse control. So it is not a big deal at all if someone sees a muslim and thinks that they might be a terrorist.. But it is a big deal if that person sees a muslim and just goes for the jugular, based on the sole fact or premise that the person is of a certain religion.. That is psychotic!!!
It's like someone killing me, just seeing me out in a store parking lot with my kid, not seeing a ring, and guessing that I am a single mom. (I am actually divorced, and my son's dad died a few years ago) So this crazy lunatic runs over and starts shooting at me, based on his own fucked up beliefs that all single moms are whores who are on welfare and all this shit. So then, there I am dead, and for what? Because some deranged asshole had poor impulse control and a pathological hate for a certain group of people (single moms)?? I would not have died that day if that guy didn't hate my perceived "social group"- that being the group of single mothers, and although I personally feel that the guy is more than welcome to feel whatever way he wants to towards single moms, I also EXPECT him to control his impulses and not pull out the glock and try to kill me. Thats LUNACY.
If it was some neighbor of mine, who came over thinking I was screwing around with their husband or something (think desperate housewives), and killed her husband, at LEAST there is some motive there, that her husband was cheating on her, and a deep set personal attachment that would have easily and reasonably been perceived to have been damaged by the infidelity. (perceived infidelity- I dont fuck anyone's husbands, lol) This is a crime of passion, because she LOVED him and (she thinks) he betrayed her..
A hate crime is spawned out of cold and pure hate.. nothing more..
A carjacker or mugger might kill someone and that is definitely awful and cold, too- but it is not spawned out of hate, it is usually someone scared of getting caught for committing the carjacking or mugging, or home invasion, or whatever, so it is a crime of necessity, rather than a crime of hate. Muggings and carjackings and thievery is all spawned from necessity, whatever the underlying problem might be- the person is on drugs, or whatever. Necessity is different from hate, and hate is different from passion.
Amended to above: Billy Bob pleads guilty to avoid the hate crime charge, because he is afraid of facing life without parole. Billy Bob was innocent.
So for example, a man that kills his wife because he wants to be with another woman and does so in a brutal manner is not doing so out of hate? Or perhaps the neighbor who is upset with his or her other neighbor because they refuse to trim their tree's and takes a gun and shoots them because they have been mad at one another for years? Still further, the kids that take weapons into a school and kill many others kids because they have been teased and lash out, thats not hate either I suppose? You see the flaw in your logic is this, the victims are just as dead or just as hurt regardless of who commits the crime and there are laws that punish those that commit the crimes as was the case with Matthew Sheppard and James Byrd. I
... You see the flaw in your logic is this, the victims are just as dead or just as hurt regardless of who commits the crime and there are laws that punish those that commit the crimes as was the case with Matthew Sheppard and James Byrd.
In fact, in Matthew Sheppards case the person that committed the crime as given life w/o parole and in the Byrd case all were tired for murder, one was given the death sentence, and two were given life. How do you suppose a hate crimes law would have benefited the families in those cases? ...
So for example, a man that kills his wife because he wants to be with another woman and does so in a brutal manner is not doing so out of hate? Or perhaps the neighbor who is upset with his or her other neighbor because they refuse to trim their tree's and takes a gun and shoots them because they have been mad at one another for years? Still further, the kids that take weapons into a school and kill many others kids because they have been teased and lash out, thats not hate either I suppose? You see the flaw in your logic is this, the victims are just as dead or just as hurt regardless of who commits the crime and there are laws that punish those that commit the crimes as was the case with Matthew Sheppard and James Byrd. I
Part of the logic with hate crimes laws is not simply that they crimes were done with 'hate' in the mind of criminal. The justification people give for greater sentences is that the crime victimized more than just the direct victim. So the argument is that if you kill someone because they're black or because they're gay, you've not only killed that victim but you've terrorized a group of people who will be in fear for their life based on sexual orientation, race, etc. So the crime has farther-reaching effects and therefore can be punished more.
The logic isn't flawless, but that's the basic argument.
