Obama does not state the 1967 border should be returned...

[edthecynic]

At last we are making some progress. Are the lines Obama referred to before (pre) the 1967 war or after (post) the 1967 war? The maps shown on this thread show Israel in control of the entire area, all the way to the Suez Canal after the war. I am sure that is not what he was referring to, so common sense dictates that he meant the lines before (pre) the war. The fact that he didn't use the word 'pre' means nothing.

Would you mutually agree with someone that has vowed before their God to kill you?

I do find it rather amusing that anyone would refer to CNN as conservative.

Clearly it is post 1967, and clearly only involving Palestinian land. The land up to the Suez Canal was Egypt's.

Here is a map that shows what land would be involved in a return to 1967 borders.

Of course a liar such as yourself knoiwningly and willfully use a lying source to push their own lie

Do not use that map anymore

The map that lies - and one that doesn't
While I presume that the white sections are indeed the land that was privately owned by Jews, the land in green was not privately owned by Arabs.

Only a tiny percentage of land in Palestine was privately owned. The various categories of land ownership included:


Mulk: privately owned in the Western sense.
Miri: Land owned by the government (originally the Ottoman crown) and suitable for agricultural use. Individuals could purchase a deed to cultivate this land and pay a tithe to the government. Ownership could be transferred only with the approval of the state. Miri rights could be transferred to heirs, and the land could be sub-let to tenants. If the owner died without an heir or the land was not cultivated for three years, the land would revert to the state.
Mahlul: Uncultivated Miri lands that would revert to the state, in theory after three years.
Mawat (or Mewat): So-called “dead”, unreclaimed land. It constituted about 50 to 60% of the land in Palestine. It belonged to the government. ...If the land had been cultivated with permission, it would be registered, at least under the Mandate, free of charge.
Elder of Ziyon: The map that lies - and one that doesn't

This map is a lie.

This one doesn't lie.

The liar is your Elder of Ziyon. I especially loved his rationalization, that government land before there was an Israeli government belonged to Israel, to call the 1946 map a lie.

 

[rdean]

Anyone notice how right wingers keep saying what Obama is going to do and then what he does is so different?

If they keep being wrong about everything, they will forever be identified as the Party of Wrong.

It was Obama who got Bin Laden after Republicans let him go and then gave up finding him.

 

[boedicca]

Obama is on the air right now blaming the 1967 idea on former Administrations.

 

[boedicca]

Obama just reference June 4, 1967 as the basis for discussion, which was the day before the start of the Six Days War.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

clearly it is post 1967, and clearly only involving palestinian land. The land up to the suez canal was egypt's.

Here is a map that shows what land would be involved in a return to 1967 borders.

of course a liar such as yourself knoiwningly and willfully use a lying source to push their own lie

do not use that map anymore

the map that lies - and one that doesn't
while i presume that the white sections are indeed the land that was privately owned by jews, the land in green was not privately owned by arabs.

Only a tiny percentage of land in palestine was privately owned. The various categories of land ownership included:


Mulk: Privately owned in the western sense.
Miri: Land owned by the government (originally the ottoman crown) and suitable for agricultural use. Individuals could purchase a deed to cultivate this land and pay a tithe to the government. Ownership could be transferred only with the approval of the state. Miri rights could be transferred to heirs, and the land could be sub-let to tenants. If the owner died without an heir or the land was not cultivated for three years, the land would revert to the state.
Mahlul: Uncultivated miri lands that would revert to the state, in theory after three years.
Mawat (or mewat): So-called “dead”, unreclaimed land. It constituted about 50 to 60% of the land in palestine. It belonged to the government. ...if the land had been cultivated with permission, it would be registered, at least under the mandate, free of charge.
elder of ziyon: The map that lies - and one that doesn't

this map is a lie.

THIS ONE DOESN'T LIE

the liar is your elder of ziyon. I especially loved his rationalization, that government land before there was an israeli government belonged to israel, to call the 1946 map a lie.

liar

 

[Jack Fate]

BO is finished. He finally stepped over the line. You can kiss his liberal lying ass goodbye.

 

[boedicca]

BO is finished. He finally stepped over the line. You can kiss his liberal lying ass goodbye.

He should be finished, based on his economic policies alone.

Unfortunately, there is a rising tide of antisemitism in the world today. For as many people as he alienates with his anti-Israeli stance, others will embrace him.

I wish Oriana Fallaci were still around to write a sequel to:

Oriana Fallaci on Antisemitism

 

[Trajan]

Obama just reference June 4, 1967 as the basis for discussion, which was the day before the start of the Six Days War.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to boedicca again.


I am watching too....heard same....my my.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Obama just reference June 4, 1967 as the basis for discussion, which was the day before the start of the Six Days War.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to boedicca again.


I am watching too....heard same....my my.

I tryed all I had left was a thank you same with you.

 

[Trajan]

This sort of thing is indicative of the conservative approach to foreign policy for this country. Hubris and arrogance. Lately, nothing exists in the realm of the conservative psyche other then Israel and America. Which is why they fail so badly at even coming close to solving this problem. Both Clinton and Carter came close. Reagan, Bush I and 11 failed to even recognize this was even a problem. While Bush II did manage to wrangle out the Gaza Strip from the Israelis, it was handled so poorly it was shocking. The Israelis smashed up infrastructure before they left and built a plethora of walls and check points.

Nothing about Obama's speech or view is radically different from the two Presidents before him. It does differ from Bush's approach somewhat in that it wants to bring all players to the table as equals.

The Israeli economy is totally dependent on America. They recieve billions in aid to maintain what is..for the most part..a dangerously artificial state. And they have absolutely no incentive to deal with their neighbors who in turn, have very little incentive to deal with them. And this sore spot has hatched some pretty viral eggs in the form of terrorism

It's hard to negotiate with people who have one thing on their mind your extermination.

True. The Israelis have done some pretty nasty things in the past like massacre entire towns of Palestinians.

I am going to have to ask for some verification please.

And their "sweeps" have landed thousands in jail with no charges. But the Palestinians have to get over that..and come to the table. It isn't going to work any other way.

thats semi hyperbole but yes charges etc. as we know them were not made in many instances.

I do laud however, your attitude ala they have to get over it, and the same applies to Israel, I have never ever felt any of the negotiations should be one sided or heavily weighted aside from right of conquest.

 

[nraforlife]

Israel, if allowed to exist at all should be compelled to do so within the borders set by the 1948 UN Resolution, without WMD's in its arsenal and the arab right of return clearly recognised and enforced.

 

[edthecynic]

of course a liar such as yourself knoiwningly and willfully use a lying source to push their own lie

do not use that map anymore

the map that lies - and one that doesn't
while i presume that the white sections are indeed the land that was privately owned by jews, the land in green was not privately owned by arabs.

Only a tiny percentage of land in palestine was privately owned. The various categories of land ownership included:


Mulk: Privately owned in the western sense.
Miri: Land owned by the government (originally the ottoman crown) and suitable for agricultural use. Individuals could purchase a deed to cultivate this land and pay a tithe to the government. Ownership could be transferred only with the approval of the state. Miri rights could be transferred to heirs, and the land could be sub-let to tenants. If the owner died without an heir or the land was not cultivated for three years, the land would revert to the state.
Mahlul: Uncultivated miri lands that would revert to the state, in theory after three years.
Mawat (or mewat): So-called “dead”, unreclaimed land. It constituted about 50 to 60% of the land in palestine. It belonged to the government. ...if the land had been cultivated with permission, it would be registered, at least under the mandate, free of charge.
elder of ziyon: The map that lies - and one that doesn't

this map is a lie.

THIS ONE DOESN'T LIE

the liar is your elder of ziyon. I especially loved his rationalization, that government land before there was an israeli government belonged to israel, to call the 1946 map a lie.

liar

The 1946 map is obviously from before there was a State of Israel, but the liar rationalizes the map is a lie because the government owns most of the land. Even though there is no Israeli government in 1946, apparently a 1946 map should show the land of a time after 1946 when Israel came into existence to not be called a lie for a 1946 map. Only to a CON$ervative would that tortured "logic" make sense.

From your link:

This map is a lie.​

The first panel has the biggest lie:

The vast majority of the total land, however, belonged to the government, meaning that when the state of Israel was established, it became legally Israel's.

 

[Sallow]

Why are you lying?

Look..if you are going to ignore history..then the discussion is over. Far more arabs have been killed by Israelis then vice versa.

One of us is ignoring history. IT AIN'T ME.

Sure it is. You seem to be breezing over the fact that Israel was started by terrorists. It's something that perplexes alot of people. Be that as it may..Israel exists..is now a legitimate country and should be recognized by it's neighbors as such. They have grievances..it's true..but they really should give some of that up. Israel isn't going anywhere. And the only way to get anything accomplished is by working toward a peaceful 2 state solution. And that involves compromise..on ALL sides.

 

[Sallow]

It's hard to negotiate with people who have one thing on their mind your extermination.

I am going to have to ask for some verification please.

And their "sweeps" have landed thousands in jail with no charges. But the Palestinians have to get over that..and come to the table. It isn't going to work any other way.

thats semi hyperbole but yes charges etc. as we know them were not made in many instances.

I do laud however, your attitude ala they have to get over it, and the same applies to Israel, I have never ever felt any of the negotiations should be one sided or heavily weighted aside from right of conquest.

I'm tired of this shit from you. You do this all the time. And when I bring you links..which you can do on your own..you are either dismissive..or ignore them.

I'll send you in the right direction..however..start with Igrun.

 

[Trajan]

I am going to have to ask for some verification please.



thats semi hyperbole but yes charges etc. as we know them were not made in many instances.

I do laud however, your attitude ala they have to get over it, and the same applies to Israel, I have never ever felt any of the negotiations should be one sided or heavily weighted aside from right of conquest.

I'm tired of this shit from you. You do this all the time. And when I bring you links..which you can do on your own..you are either dismissive..or ignore them.

I'll send you in the right direction..however..start with Igrun.

you need to get a grip, you rarely if ever provide links when I ask, you must be thinking of someone else, further this is a discussion board, if I read and contest the information in one of your links the answer is not to disappear with your tail between your legs, I have completely lost count of how many times you have thrown up some comment and I ask for clarification or verification and bam, gone.

Now granted, one doesn't always come back to a thread and see everyone responses but its happened so many tomes the law of averages says, no, you just take a powder on purpose.

now, you butchered the quote, so, you said they "massacred" entire towns, I don't think thats accurate, I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong, links please, and no," go google igrun" ( its IRgun) doesn't cut it and neither will Deir Yassin......balls in your court.

 

[Sallow]

I'm tired of this shit from you. You do this all the time. And when I bring you links..which you can do on your own..you are either dismissive..or ignore them.

I'll send you in the right direction..however..start with Igrun.

you need to get a grip, you rarely if ever provide links when I ask, you must be thinking of someone else, further this is a discussion board, if I read and contest the information in one of your links the answer is not to disappear with your tail between your legs, I have completely lost count of how many times you have thrown up some comment and I ask for clarification or verification and bam, gone.

Now granted, one doesn't always come back to a thread and see everyone responses but its happened so many tomes the law of averages says, no, you just take a powder on purpose.

now, you butchered the quote, so, you said they "massacred" entire towns, I don't think thats accurate, I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong, links please, and no," go google igrun" ( its IRgun) doesn't cut it and neither will Deir Yassin......balls in your court.

What ball?

Again..I gave you a starting point. And heck yeah..I provide you with links all the time. That's at an end. Sorry about the spelling..it was off the top of my head.

Israel's been a real bad player..even against this country. I don't know another country that can attack American war ships, spy on it's patron country, steal American industrial secrets and cap American citizens and NOT get flattened.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

]

You are full off shit

 

[Baruch Menachem]

The guys who set up the state of Israel were not terrorists.

They did have some guys running around who were, and they let them come in as legal, but the Stern and Irgun factions put down their guns and fought it out on the ballot after that.

And the Irgun and Stern folks weren't attacking the Arabs. They were attacking the british. And they were attacking military installations. They managed to blow up the headquarters of the British occupation.

The arabs attacked the Jews, and the British let them. So the Brits had to go.

Everyone knows about Dier Yassin now. Mostly because it was such a freaky event. People forget what the arabs did in Hebron and a dozen other places. It became common and boring.

One could argue that the Israelis should have banned Sharon and Begin from running for office after what they did. It would be a tough argument to make in comparison to what was routine from the arab side at the time.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Look..if you are going to ignore history..then the discussion is over. Far more arabs have been killed by Israelis then vice versa.

One of us is ignoring history. IT AIN'T ME.

Sure it is. You seem to be breezing over the fact that Israel was started by terrorists. It's something that perplexes alot of people. Be that as it may..Israel exists..is now a legitimate country and should be recognized by it's neighbors as such. They have grievances..it's true..but they really should give some of that up. Israel isn't going anywhere. And the only way to get anything accomplished is by working toward a peaceful 2 state solution. And that involves compromise..on ALL sides.

And you have proof of this slander?
Just like the arabs used to say Jews used the blood of children in their bread
Israel has had malicious intentions since ancient times. Its objective is the destruction of all other religions....They regard the other religions as lower than their own and other peoples as inferior to their level. And on the subject of vengeance — they have a certain day on which they mix the blood of non-Jews into their bread and eat it. It happened that two years ago, while I was in Paris on a visit, that the police discovered five murdered children. Their blood had been drained, and it turned out that some Jews had murdered them in order to take their blood and mix it with the bread that they eat on this day. This shows you what is the extent of their hatred and malice toward non-Jewish peoples
Myths & Facts -The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries

 

[Sallow]

The guys who set up the state of Israel were not terrorists.
They did have some guys running around who were, and they let them come in as legal, but the Stern and Irgun factions put down their guns and fought it out on the ballot after that.

And the Irgun and Stern folks weren't attacking the Arabs. They were attacking the british. And they were attacking military installations. They managed to blow up the headquarters of the British occupation.

The arabs attacked the Jews, and the British let them. So the Brits had to go.

Everyone knows about Dier Yassin now. Mostly because it was such a freaky event. People forget what the arabs did in Hebron and a dozen other places. It became common and boring.

One could argue that the Israelis should have banned Sharon and Begin from running for office after what they did. It would be a tough argument to make in comparison to what was routine from the arab side at the time.