Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people

[Dogmaphobe]

The fear is there because that is not how they see events unfolding and there is some legitimacy in those fears. Land loss and confiscations through absentee landowner laws look VERY DIFFERENT to an Arab than to a Jew. Where as Israeli Jews are seeing a society where Arab citizens have the same “rights” as Jews, Arabs see a society where they are discriminated against, despised, do not have the same land rights. They have seen some of their political parties banned, make a fraction of the income their Jewish counterparts do and receive a fraction of the investment in their communities but by the Israeli government. Are the fears really irrational? I don’t think so.

I think maybe you are in some respects conflating Arab Palestinians and Arab Israelis. We are speaking here strictly of Arab Israeli citizens.

Confiscations happened to BOTH Arabs and Jews. Internally displaced absentee landowners should be restored where possible, and compensated where not. For BOTH Arabs and Jews. Sorting it out is a mess, but Israel's court system appears to me to be fair and if anything slightly discriminatory towards Israeli Jews rather than Israeli Arabs. If you have specific examples you want to discuss, I'd be glad to go into more detail.

Israeli Arabs, by definition, have not had ANY land loss in terms of sovereignty. (And actually, Palestine has not experienced any actual "land loss" either since the territory is still disputed.)

I disagree with you that Arab Israelis see a society where they are discriminated against, despised and do not have the same rights. Again, I'd be glad to discuss any specific cases with you, but I think you are conflating Arab Israelis with Arab Palestinian rights, especially in Area C. Remember the Supreme Court has upheld the decision that there can be no such thing as Jew-only communities while there can be Arab-only communities. Its affirmative action.

Yes, I don't disagree that there is discrimination (as there is everywhere in the world) but I also see Israel working to address that discrimination for all its citizens.

To my knowledge, the only political party banned in Israel was a Jewish one, but feel free to link me.

I did a LOT of research into the economic disparity between Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews and if you correct for the very small number of working Arab women (a cultural thing and not a discrimination thing) and for the Bedouin peoples (again a cultural thing and not a discrimination thing) there is not much of a wage gap between Arab and Jewish Israelis. And that wage gap can be largely attributed to education -- the more highly educated, the higher the wage. Arabs tend to go to school for fewer years than Jews. Why is that? Is it a cultural thing or a discrimination thing? Or something else at play?

For example, this article is good ( The paradox of being an Arab member of Israel's Knesset )

I'm not surprised that you like revelations of a well known hater of Israel and supporter of terrorists.

I am not surprised you resort to personal attacks. Fortunately there are others here far more capable of quality discussion.

Telling the truth is not an attack.

 

[Coyote]

I understand the complexities, because they exist in our schools, but our schools are funded heavily through local taxes, so it is easy to see why funding is so variable.

But let’s look at the one example in Jerusalem. That did not look good imo. What are your thoughts there?

My thoughts thus far are that the claim "Arab schools receive half the funding of Jewish schools" has not been demonstrated, let alone the claim that the cause of the funding discrepancy is an institutionalized, systematic, deliberate discrimination against Arab Israelis.

Here is another article about Jerusalem: Jerusalem's Arab students 'receive less funding than Jewish counterparts'

An analysis of the budget reveals that some schools in East Jerusalem, which is occupied by Israel, are not even receiving the funds allocated by the municipality.

An instance of the inequality that exists between eastern and western Jerusalem schools may be seen in a comparison of the Beith Hinuch High School and the Ras al-Amud high school.

As municipal schools, both instutions receive their budgets from the municipality and Israel's Education Ministry. Despite this, West Jerusalem's Beith Hinuch school received an allocation of 16.3 million shekels ($4.3 million) for 2016, while the Arab Ras al-Amud school will get only 2.9 million shekels ($766,993) for the same year. Both schools have roughly the same number of students in attendance.

Adding to the unbalanced scales is the fact that 70.8 percent of teaching positions in Beit Hinuch are approved, comparing to only 21.7 percent from Ras al-Amud.

According to Israeli daily Haaretz, "a comparison of every clause in the budget indicates that the funding for the western Jerusalem school is immeasurably higher than that of its East Jerusalem counterpart".

These findings have been rejected by the municipality, who said that schools cannot be compared.

These findings have been rejected by the municipality, who said that schools cannot be compared.

Just like you can't compare Haaretz to Israel Hayom, you can't compare different schools of different sizes and different characteristics, with different numbers of teachers and sources of funding found in other clauses," the municipality said, drawing a parallel between a comparison of two Israeli newspapers.

It was also claimed by the city that extra money is being spent on renovations in East Jerusalem. The budget, however, shows that the Arab sector receives less funding for renovations than any of the three sectors, which are identified as 'General', 'ultra-Orthodox' and 'Arab'.

For 2016, Arab schools received eight million shekels [$2.1 million] for renovations, paling in comparison to the 42 million shekels [$11.1 million] allocated. for secular and national religious schools.

Furthermore, an analysis of funds transferred by the Education Ministry to Arab schools shows that amounts allocated are not received in full. To contrast, schools in West Jerusalem were found to have spent their ministry budgets and received additional funding from the municipality.

According to a study conducted by Jerusalem councillor Laura Wharton, the discrimination mentioned above is not isolated. Wharton's study revealed that 11 of 17 high schools in East Jerusalem received less funds, often by millions, than had been allocated to them. The opposite was true for West Jerusalem, where all but one school received additional support.

 

[Coyote]

I thought the article interesting, though the paragraph at the end tainted it.

No it did not. It merely found the appropriate expressions for the situation and for the ways in which this (ultra-) right government and its shills defend, or distract from, the sordid state of affairs.

Jews have the right of "return", even if they didn't set foot anywhere near what is now Israel, and neither did 50 generations of their forebears. Arabs do not have that right, not even those still carrying around the keys to their house, which the Jews blew up or bulldozed 70 years ago. Everyone with the most superficial knowledge about Israel knows this, and none posting on this thread belongs into that category.

In that light:

"There are absolutely no 'rights' in Israel arising from being Jewish as opposed to being Arab."​

Followed by:

"Another useful idiot."​

Quite.

As much as I admire your posting style - I am not sure treating hasbara peddlers as serious interlocutors isn't a disservice to debate.

Also mind my actual words. There are no rights IN Israel which advantage Jews over Arabs. All are equal in law.

Actually there is inequality. Arabs don't have to serve 3 years in the army and risk their lives fighting for their country.

And the price they pay for not serving is they are locked out of a lot of jobs and promotions that IDF service confers. Jews don’t have to serve either, if they are Hasidic.

So, Israeli Arabs, because they don't serve in the army, again are victims? It's ridiculous.
Yes, ultra-orthodox Jews are not obliged to serve in the army. But, yet, thouzands of them are serving, including in battle units. And the Israeli society doesn't consider the law honest and tries to change the law. The High Court declared it unconstitutional and currently it is reconsidered.
It's noteworthy though, that you recall ultra religious Jews, when you need to justify Israeli Arabs regarding military service, but you forget about them while accusing Israel in discrimination of Arab citizens.

I am not exactly sure what you are going on about.

 

[Coyote]

East and West LA have their issues as well...

Ah but.....Jerusalem is different, you see.

It is. Pretending it isn’t is just silly.

 

[Coyote]

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This was to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, many Arabs have volunteered for military duty and the Druze and Circassian communities are subject to the draft.

From JVL.

That is good to know...that sole distinction. Can Arab Israeli’s live and in build in all the same places accessible to Jews?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people
※→ Humanity, et al,

Oh, this is something you need to rethink. This improper question that has no answer.

What Palestinian response to Israel's illegal activity is acceptable to you?

(COMMENT)

Illegal Activity is assessed in terms of its impact and its magnitude. All codified true violations have penalties across the legal range of prosecution that vary on the severity of the crime.

There is no absolute law and the is no one system of law. Clearly, it is legal in the mind of many Arab Palestinians kill with the direct intent to target innocent civilians. Whereas that is totally illegal in the eyes of the Israeli.

(ANSWER)

The acceptable response encourages the development of international law and of relations among States, in promoting the rule of law among nations and particularly the universal application of the principles embodied in the Charter.

Most Respectfully,
R

WTF.

 

[member]

RE: Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people
※→ Humanity, et al,

Oh, this is something you need to rethink. This improper question that has no answer.

What Palestinian response to Israel's illegal activity is acceptable to you?

(COMMENT)

Illegal Activity is assessed in terms of its impact and its magnitude. All codified true violations have penalties across the legal range of prosecution that vary on the severity of the crime.

There is no absolute law and the is no one system of law. Clearly, it is legal in the mind of many Arab Palestinians kill with the direct intent to target innocent civilians. Whereas that is totally illegal in the eyes of the Israeli.

(ANSWER)

The acceptable response encourages the development of international law and of relations among States, in promoting the rule of law among nations and particularly the universal application of the principles embodied in the Charter.

Most Respectfully,
R

"Clearly, it is legal in the mind of many Arab Palestinians kill with the direct intent to target innocent civilians. Whereas that is totally illegal in the eyes of the Israeli."


"it is legal in the mind of many Arab Palestinians kill with the direct intent to target innocent civilians"

........... those pesky terrorists!

 

[Shusha]

I understand the complexities, because they exist in our schools, but our schools are funded heavily through local taxes, so it is easy to see why funding is so variable.

But let’s look at the one example in Jerusalem. That did not look good imo. What are your thoughts there?

My thoughts thus far are that the claim "Arab schools receive half the funding of Jewish schools" has not been demonstrated, let alone the claim that the cause of the funding discrepancy is an institutionalized, systematic, deliberate discrimination against Arab Israelis.

Here is another article about Jerusalem: Jerusalem's Arab students 'receive less funding than Jewish counterparts'

An analysis of the budget reveals that some schools in East Jerusalem, which is occupied by Israel, are not even receiving the funds allocated by the municipality.

An instance of the inequality that exists between eastern and western Jerusalem schools may be seen in a comparison of the Beith Hinuch High School and the Ras al-Amud high school.

As municipal schools, both instutions receive their budgets from the municipality and Israel's Education Ministry. Despite this, West Jerusalem's Beith Hinuch school received an allocation of 16.3 million shekels ($4.3 million) for 2016, while the Arab Ras al-Amud school will get only 2.9 million shekels ($766,993) for the same year. Both schools have roughly the same number of students in attendance.

Adding to the unbalanced scales is the fact that 70.8 percent of teaching positions in Beit Hinuch are approved, comparing to only 21.7 percent from Ras al-Amud.

According to Israeli daily Haaretz, "a comparison of every clause in the budget indicates that the funding for the western Jerusalem school is immeasurably higher than that of its East Jerusalem counterpart".

These findings have been rejected by the municipality, who said that schools cannot be compared.

These findings have been rejected by the municipality, who said that schools cannot be compared.

Just like you can't compare Haaretz to Israel Hayom, you can't compare different schools of different sizes and different characteristics, with different numbers of teachers and sources of funding found in other clauses," the municipality said, drawing a parallel between a comparison of two Israeli newspapers.

It was also claimed by the city that extra money is being spent on renovations in East Jerusalem. The budget, however, shows that the Arab sector receives less funding for renovations than any of the three sectors, which are identified as 'General', 'ultra-Orthodox' and 'Arab'.

For 2016, Arab schools received eight million shekels [$2.1 million] for renovations, paling in comparison to the 42 million shekels [$11.1 million] allocated. for secular and national religious schools.

Furthermore, an analysis of funds transferred by the Education Ministry to Arab schools shows that amounts allocated are not received in full. To contrast, schools in West Jerusalem were found to have spent their ministry budgets and received additional funding from the municipality.

According to a study conducted by Jerusalem councillor Laura Wharton, the discrimination mentioned above is not isolated. Wharton's study revealed that 11 of 17 high schools in East Jerusalem received less funds, often by millions, than had been allocated to them. The opposite was true for West Jerusalem, where all but one school received additional support.

Those articles all have the same source article. I'm trying to find the basis for that article. The actual study and the comments from the municipality. There is more here than meets the eye. I just haven't found it yet. But I'm always suspicious of a widely circulated article all from the same source where the data isn't available. It just sounds like Israel-bashing.

 

[Shusha]

Coyote

Found an article which says that 41% of the schools in East Jerusalem are "unofficial schools" and thus only partly funded by the Municipality of Jerusalem. It is my understanding also that the PA provides funding for Arab schools in East Jerusalem. I'm off to teach TKD. I'll do some more digging and be back later.

Edited to add: Oh, and btw, these are not Arab Israelis, are they?

 

[Mindful]

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This was to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, many Arabs have volunteered for military duty and the Druze and Circassian communities are subject to the draft.

From JVL.

That is good to know...that sole distinction. Can Arab Israeli’s live and in build in all the same places accessible to Jews?

When my daughter lived in Ramat Gan, the next door neighbours were Arabs.

 

[Olde Europe]

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

Looking back, I just saw you agreed with that disingenuous nonsense above, Coyote.

Let's have a look, shall we? How is the above a genuine reply to what I said? Here:

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

For, it is not. Shusha is willfully confusing quite different things, namely, national self-determination and segregation / apartheid.

Second, no, racial / ethnic self-determination is not the "BASIS for our current global system of nations", much as racists and nationalists try to make it so.

Third, in order to demonstrate the above, consider:

"The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of South Africa is unique to White South Africans."

Acceptable? How about this:

"The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Germany is unique to Aryan Germans."

Acceptable? Obviously neither is. Therefore, neither is this: "1. C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people."

So, "it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it" is an obvious falsehood, and quite likely a lie with the purpose of deceiving about the Basic Law officially declaring Israel an apartheid state. Obviously, it caused quite a stir when others did it. There is no direct line between national self-determination and creating a privileged ethnic group within a nation with the objective of discriminating against all others. Confusing the two, and trying to make it appear as if everybody did it, is hasbara, plain and simple.

Shusha's posting didn't surprise me at all, given his/her propensities. It'd be disappointing if you actually, after thorough consideration, agreed with that.

 

[Mindful]

That is the BASIS for our current global system of nations -- the idea that ethnic groups can self-determine and create a nationality and have sovereignty. That is the basis for the formation of probably every new country in the past 100 years. And yet it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it. Why is that, do you think?

Looking back, I just saw you agreed with that disingenuous nonsense above, Coyote.

Let's have a look, shall we? How is the above a genuine reply to what I said? Here:

The point was different laws governing different sects / ethnic groups. No doubt, nations do religious / ethnic bigotry. If I had a choice, I'd opt for less thereof.

For, it is not. Shusha is willfully confusing quite different things, namely, national self-determination and segregation / apartheid.

Second, no, racial / ethnic self-determination is not the "BASIS for our current global system of nations", much as racists and nationalists try to make it so.

Third, in order to demonstrate the above, consider:

"The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of South Africa is unique to White South Africans."

Acceptable? How about this:

"The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Germany is unique to Aryan Germans."

Acceptable? Obviously neither is. Therefore, neither is this: "1. C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people."

So, "it doesn't cause a stir in the world until the Jewish people do it" is an obvious falsehood, and quite likely a lie with the purpose of deceiving about the Basic Law officially declaring Israel an apartheid state. Obviously, it caused quite a stir when others did it. There is no direct line between national self-determination and creating a privileged ethnic group within a nation with the objective of discriminating against all others. Confusing the two, and trying to make it appear as if everybody did it, is hasbara, plain and simple.

Shusha's posting didn't surprise me at all, given his/her propensities. It'd be disappointing if you actually, after thorough consideration, agreed with that.

Who do you think you are?

All this froth is superficial and mendacious.

Cut to the chase, we all know what the 'real reason' is.

 

[Humanity]

No, you can't have it both ways!

Israel declares Jerusalem as its undivided capital so there is no "East Jerusalem" in the way you are trying to use the term!

Seems a rather lame argument from you on this one. IF Israel considers Jerusalem as its undivided capital then of course it has responsibilities in "East Jerusalem" equal to its responsibilities in "West Jerusalem".

I'm no hypocrite. I agree that Israel should annex all of Jerusalem. And yes, that means it has equal responsibilities to all its citizens and residents. That absolutely means Israeli funding, and also Israeli curriculum and Israeli teachers and Israeli buildings. Actually, I think it should go one step further -- all the resident non-citizens of Jerusalem should be required to declare citizenship. If they declare loyalty to Israel, they get citizenship and they stay. If they declare Palestinian citizenship they are given some NIS in compensation and deported to Palestine. If they turn terrorist they are deported immediately with no compensation.

Now, here's problem. You, and others, will declare that is stealing land, destroying Palestinian culture, discrimination, etc.

Well, I don't agree that Israel should annex all of Jerusalem.

"declare loyalty to Israel" or get deported?

Well, that would be an interesting move. How many countries have a law like that?

 

[Mindful]

No, you can't have it both ways!

Israel declares Jerusalem as its undivided capital so there is no "East Jerusalem" in the way you are trying to use the term!

Seems a rather lame argument from you on this one. IF Israel considers Jerusalem as its undivided capital then of course it has responsibilities in "East Jerusalem" equal to its responsibilities in "West Jerusalem".

I'm no hypocrite. I agree that Israel should annex all of Jerusalem. And yes, that means it has equal responsibilities to all its citizens and residents. That absolutely means Israeli funding, and also Israeli curriculum and Israeli teachers and Israeli buildings. Actually, I think it should go one step further -- all the resident non-citizens of Jerusalem should be required to declare citizenship. If they declare loyalty to Israel, they get citizenship and they stay. If they declare Palestinian citizenship they are given some NIS in compensation and deported to Palestine. If they turn terrorist they are deported immediately with no compensation.

Now, here's problem. You, and others, will declare that is stealing land, destroying Palestinian culture, discrimination, etc.

Well, I don't agree that Israel should annex all of Jerusalem.

"declare loyalty to Israel" or get deported?

Well, that would be an interesting move. How many countries have a law like that?

Who are you to tell Israel what it should do?

 

[Humanity]

Israel's court system works very hard to draw a balanced, even approach to all its citizens -- even to the point of discriminating against Jews.

Does it?

Israeli Court Promotes Discrimination against Arabs, Deprives them of Public Lands

 

[Humanity]

No, you can't have it both ways!

Israel declares Jerusalem as its undivided capital so there is no "East Jerusalem" in the way you are trying to use the term!

Seems a rather lame argument from you on this one. IF Israel considers Jerusalem as its undivided capital then of course it has responsibilities in "East Jerusalem" equal to its responsibilities in "West Jerusalem".

I'm no hypocrite. I agree that Israel should annex all of Jerusalem. And yes, that means it has equal responsibilities to all its citizens and residents. That absolutely means Israeli funding, and also Israeli curriculum and Israeli teachers and Israeli buildings. Actually, I think it should go one step further -- all the resident non-citizens of Jerusalem should be required to declare citizenship. If they declare loyalty to Israel, they get citizenship and they stay. If they declare Palestinian citizenship they are given some NIS in compensation and deported to Palestine. If they turn terrorist they are deported immediately with no compensation.

Now, here's problem. You, and others, will declare that is stealing land, destroying Palestinian culture, discrimination, etc.

Well, I don't agree that Israel should annex all of Jerusalem.

"declare loyalty to Israel" or get deported?

Well, that would be an interesting move. How many countries have a law like that?

Who are you to tell Israel what it should do?

Oh? Where did I tell Israel to do anything?

And who are you to question me?

 

[Mindful]

No, you can't have it both ways!

Israel declares Jerusalem as its undivided capital so there is no "East Jerusalem" in the way you are trying to use the term!

Seems a rather lame argument from you on this one. IF Israel considers Jerusalem as its undivided capital then of course it has responsibilities in "East Jerusalem" equal to its responsibilities in "West Jerusalem".

I'm no hypocrite. I agree that Israel should annex all of Jerusalem. And yes, that means it has equal responsibilities to all its citizens and residents. That absolutely means Israeli funding, and also Israeli curriculum and Israeli teachers and Israeli buildings. Actually, I think it should go one step further -- all the resident non-citizens of Jerusalem should be required to declare citizenship. If they declare loyalty to Israel, they get citizenship and they stay. If they declare Palestinian citizenship they are given some NIS in compensation and deported to Palestine. If they turn terrorist they are deported immediately with no compensation.

Now, here's problem. You, and others, will declare that is stealing land, destroying Palestinian culture, discrimination, etc.

Well, I don't agree that Israel should annex all of Jerusalem.

"declare loyalty to Israel" or get deported?

Well, that would be an interesting move. How many countries have a law like that?

Who are you to tell Israel what it should do?

Oh? Where did I tell Israel to do anything?

And who are you to question me?

It's your passion.

I'm no one in particular.

 

[ptbw forever]

And yet the same people who embrace this are against white nationalism....in Europe.

 

[ptbw forever]

Our German country is too small nowadays.

I would say not nearly small enough.

Whatever evil you wish on Germans and Europeans will be inflicted on you.

 

[Mindful]

Our German country is too small nowadays.

I would say not nearly small enough.

Whatever evil you wish on Germans and Europeans will be inflicted on you.

What evil had you in mind?