Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people

[Shusha]

I'm not talking about Palestinians but Arab Israeli's. Who should be equal citizens. don't you think that discrimination FEEDS hostility?

It IS Israel's responsibility to fix social injustice within it's nation.

Of course its Israel's responsibility to fix social injustices within its nation. But it is impossible to do that in the context of at least some of those Arab Israelis being hostile to the entire IDEA of Israel and a Jewish nation.

I don't think, in this context, discrimination feeds hostility. Rather I think the hostility emanates from a rejection of Jewish rights and self-determination. That is the source of the conflict. And I think once we correct for that hostility and end the conflict and allow people to choose where they would like to live, the social injustices of discrimination in Israel will ease as much or better than any other culturally diverse nation such as Canada and the US and Australia.

 

[Shusha]

The Arab community lives in a democratic state, in which they chose strong Arab MP's who deal with nothing but the PA and Gaza issues, and blaming Israel for all ills of the world.
When their leaders choose to invest time in Israeli Arabs change might happen, until then no matter how much the govt invests in the community, there won't be any more result than just complaining and buying sports cars.

Here's Arabe, an Arab village in the north, those multi stories buildings are for one family,
the usual landscape of Arab communities, most Jews live in small apartments and spend 3 years serving the country, during which the former conveniently goes through a privileged education system to get a degree.

In practice, minorities are privileged in most modern democracies today.

Well, I don't agree with your last sentence, but YES! to the comments about the Arabs in Parliament. Those Arab members of the Knesset are hostile to the sovereign State of Israel. That is what I mean by "adjusting for context". When those Arab members start working FOR Israel and Israel isn't threatened by them, and most especially when they start working for the Arab citizens of Israel, then social justice will come.

 

[rylah]

The Arab community lives in a democratic state, in which they chose strong Arab MP's who deal with nothing but the PA and Gaza issues, and blaming Israel for all ills of the world.
When their leaders choose to invest time in Israeli Arabs change might happen, until then no matter how much the govt invests in the community, there won't be any more result than just complaining and buying sports cars.

Here's Arabe, an Arab village in the north, those multi stories buildings are for one family,
the usual landscape of Arab communities, most Jews live in small apartments and spend 3 years serving the country, during which the former conveniently goes through a privileged education system to get a degree.

In practice, minorities are privileged in most modern democracies today.

Well, I don't agree with your last sentence, but YES! to the comments about the Arabs in Parliament. Those Arab members of the Knesset are hostile to the sovereign State of Israel. That is what I mean by "adjusting for context". When those Arab members start working FOR Israel and Israel isn't threatened by them, and most especially when they start working for the Arab citizens of Israel, then social justice will come.

In this case it's a political decision which would demand a whole new thread to analyze - the Israeli Arab MP's voluntary (and involuntary) participation in the Palestinian politics, in many cases on the account of the wellbeing of their own voters.

Best solution in my opinion is for Israel to gradually establish Jewish neighborhoods and stronger police presence in these villages, start with the easy ones.
Competition might increase the level of life and encourage new thinking, today there's no variety or competition in those communities.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not talking about Palestinians but Arab Israeli's. Who should be equal citizens. don't you think that discrimination FEEDS hostility?

It IS Israel's responsibility to fix social injustice within it's nation.

Of course its Israel's responsibility to fix social injustices within its nation. But it is impossible to do that in the context of at least some of those Arab Israelis being hostile to the entire IDEA of Israel and a Jewish nation.

I don't think, in this context, discrimination feeds hostility. Rather I think the hostility emanates from a rejection of Jewish rights and self-determination. That is the source of the conflict. And I think once we correct for that hostility and end the conflict and allow people to choose where they would like to live, the social injustices of discrimination in Israel will ease as much or better than any other culturally diverse nation such as Canada and the US and Australia.

I would disagree. You're creating a self-reinforcing cycle where Arabs do in reality, suffer discrimmination on a variety of fronts and are very aware of this, which feeds hostility on top of whatever feeling they might have in regards to Jewish sovereignty. Continuing that inequity by never addressing it just serves to reinforce that hostility. Respect, equality, wealth, and opportunity go a long way towards alleviating hostility. I think it's important to note many Arab Israeli's would choose to live in Israel over a Palestinian state (according to polls I've read).

 

[rylah]

I'm not talking about Palestinians but Arab Israeli's. Who should be equal citizens. don't you think that discrimination FEEDS hostility?

It IS Israel's responsibility to fix social injustice within it's nation.

Of course its Israel's responsibility to fix social injustices within its nation. But it is impossible to do that in the context of at least some of those Arab Israelis being hostile to the entire IDEA of Israel and a Jewish nation.

I don't think, in this context, discrimination feeds hostility. Rather I think the hostility emanates from a rejection of Jewish rights and self-determination. That is the source of the conflict. And I think once we correct for that hostility and end the conflict and allow people to choose where they would like to live, the social injustices of discrimination in Israel will ease as much or better than any other culturally diverse nation such as Canada and the US and Australia.

I would disagree. You're creating a self-reinforcing cycle where Arabs do in reality, suffer discrimmination on a variety of fronts and are very aware of this, which feeds hostility on top of whatever feeling they might have in regards to Jewish sovereignty. Continuing that inequity by never addressing it just serves to reinforce that hostility. Respect, equality, wealth, and opportunity go a long way towards alleviating hostility. I think it's important to note many Arab Israeli's would choose to live in Israel over a Palestinian state (according to polls I've read).

The cycle is created by introducing such vague terms as "respect, wealth, opportunity" without actually addressing anything at hand. Finding or claiming discrimination easiest thing around today, especially in the US, in a way it creates a cycle in its' own - when minorities are taught to remain weak (or merely keep the image) because it's a convenient position. It has turned into a whole industry with thousands of jobs at stake.

That logic could very likely lead one to accuse the Sun for a systematic violation of basic human rights.

 

[Shusha]

I'm not talking about Palestinians but Arab Israeli's. Who should be equal citizens. don't you think that discrimination FEEDS hostility?

It IS Israel's responsibility to fix social injustice within it's nation.

Of course its Israel's responsibility to fix social injustices within its nation. But it is impossible to do that in the context of at least some of those Arab Israelis being hostile to the entire IDEA of Israel and a Jewish nation.

I don't think, in this context, discrimination feeds hostility. Rather I think the hostility emanates from a rejection of Jewish rights and self-determination. That is the source of the conflict. And I think once we correct for that hostility and end the conflict and allow people to choose where they would like to live, the social injustices of discrimination in Israel will ease as much or better than any other culturally diverse nation such as Canada and the US and Australia.

I would disagree. You're creating a self-reinforcing cycle where Arabs do in reality, suffer discrimmination on a variety of fronts and are very aware of this, which feeds hostility on top of whatever feeling they might have in regards to Jewish sovereignty. Continuing that inequity by never addressing it just serves to reinforce that hostility. Respect, equality, wealth, and opportunity go a long way towards alleviating hostility. I think it's important to note many Arab Israeli's would choose to live in Israel over a Palestinian state (according to polls I've read).

And I disagree. (But I still appreciate the level of discourse). You can't end the perception of discrimination in the context of a denial of a right to sovereignty. When Arabs believe Israel (read: Jews) have no right to "rule over them" -- everything, real or not, will be perceived as a "wrong". And you can't end discrimination in the context of the conflict where Israelis are (legitimately) fearful of Arabs. Those things need to sort themselves out first.

 

[Shusha]

Israeli legislators have recognized the inequality in government spending - this article is from 2015 (I'm not sure where this legislative effort ended up) but it points out the inequities:

Israel looks to address funding gaps for Arab community with $3.9 billion plan

The largest ever government plan to advance the economic development of Israel’s Arab population will go to the cabinet for approval on Wednesday, but Israeli Arab leaders said they were skeptical the ambitious plan would be put into effect given the current atmosphere in the country.


The proposal calls for 15 billion shekels ($3.86 billion) in extra funding on top of anything now allocated to Arab communities in the state budget. The money is to be devoted to developing infrastructure, industry, education and healthcare. The details of the plan were ironed out over the last two weeks in discussions between treasury officials and MK Ayman Odeh, chairman of the Joint Arab List.


But Arab lawmakers and public figures have expressed doubts about the likelihood of the plan being implemented, especially given the current atmosphere in Israel. The cabinet was supposed to approve the plan on Sunday, but the vote was delayed amid opposition from Likud ministers, including from Culture Minister Miri Regev, who said the plan did not include mixed cities of Hafia, Tel Aviv-Jaffa, Ramle and Lod. Sources said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu felt uncomfortable approving the measure before the meeting of the Likud Central Committee Tuesday.

“We will be wiser after the cabinet meeting. Meanwhile, we are talking about promises and maybe a decision, which in the end has to be implemented,” said Sakhnin Mayor Mazen Ghanaim, who is also head of the Higher Arab Monitoring Committee. “If it is implemented, it will be a step in the right direction. Anyone who thinks this will lead to equality is wrong. It’s a step in the right direction on a long road,” he added.


The draft resolution details the gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs. While Arabs constitute about 20% of Israel’s population, only 7% of the government’s budget for public transportation goes to Arab communities. Moreover, some 34% of those killed in traffic accidents are Arab.

Only 3.5% of industrial zones in Israel are in Arab communities.


According to figures for 2014, 75.4% of Arab men between the ages of 25 and 64 were employed, compared with 85.7% of Jewish men who are not Haredi. Only 33.2% of adult Arab women were employed, versus 79.9% Jewish women. The plan calls for spending 24 million shekels on incentives to employers and small and medium-size businesses in the Arab community, as well as a 25% increase in the budget for building daycare centers in Arab towns. The Finance Ministry will allocate 200 million shekels to the Economy Ministry for employment-counselling centers in Arab communities.


In education, only 59.5% of students in the Arab school system are eligible for matriculation certificates, as opposed to 75.1% in the Jewish secular and state religious systems. The plan calls for a program led by the Education Ministry to improve Arabic and Hebrew language skills, with an emphasis on speaking and writing, from kindergarten through 12th grade.


By 2021, the plan calls for Arab undergraduates at Israeli universities to reach 17%, which would be an increase from 14% last year, and a similar boost for post-graduate students.


In housing, the plan states that 20 percent of the investment in public institutions will be in Arab communities, and that 30 percent of the fund for protection of open spaces is to be earmarked for Arab communities. ​

Okay, THAT is a lot to unpack. First, the Haaretz article is paywalled so...ugh. Found a similar article from ToI which was long on yay Israel and short on actual facts.

I'll see what I can find...but meantime, isn't Israel doing exactly what it should in this situation? Providing additional funding to improve Arab communities?


Oh, and also, isn't the discrepancy between female percentage employment Arab vs Jew related to an Arab cultural issue, rather than discrimination from Israel?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Now it's a basic law: The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people
※→ Coyote, Shusha, et al,

Yes, it is not easy on any plane or under any set of conditions. Like in mathematics, some equations have more than one right answer; and some fall within a more preferable range than others.

I would suggest that event the terms "right" and "wrong" have ranges of truth when dealing in a political environment in which there is a difference between a faith-based acceptance and an other-than faith-based acceptance.

And in the case of the Israeli-Arab Palestinian Conflict, it becomes more complex as the number of dimensions increases ↑ --- and the levels of influence are gradually introduced. The more complex the questions, the less likely that any single permanent solution will be found and workable.

I don't think anyone should be legally forced to live where they do not wish to based on their ethnicity, religion or race - they should be free to choose based on their ability to afford to live there. But you are right - no easy or "right" answers.

(COMMENT - IF I MAY INTERJECT)

{ A "right" answer implies there is at least one (if not more) "wrong" answer(s). }
THE BLUF: No matter what solution is adopted, no one solution with being accepted by all parties. (You can't please all of the people.)

One of the near-universal and complex premises is: That it is "wrong" (unjust, dishonest, or immoral action) to hurt or injure someone either emotionally, physically, economically/financially, reputation-wise, image-wise, politically → etc.

Once we all come to this as a realization, then two great concepts kick-in: 1) Moral Particularism, and of course: 2) Principle of Sufficient Reason. Distilled down, in any complex decision on the resolution of the Israeli-Arab Palestinian Conflict, any solution based on "right" and "wrong" becomes of little or no practical relevance; and the workable solutions become a matter of:

• The numbers of displeased 'v' satisfied.
• Policies that are enforceable 'v' unenforceable.
• Affordability of policised enforced.
• Containment and Toxicity.​

RE: Voluntary segregation

Really good points Shusha! I hadn't thought of it from that perspective, and I agree with your points. I don't think voluntary segregation is necessarily bad, and it's wrong to force people to live in communities they do not wish to. What matters is freedom of choice.

(COMMENT)

Well, if the action is voluntary, then technically it is not "segregation;" as it is applied politically. It would be a lack of diversity (not being composed of differing elements or qualities). Those groups composed with a homogeneous (NOT being composed of differing elements or qualities; both positive and negative) constituency are still free to choose; but are selectively deprived of the qualities of that which it has become separated from.

However, contrived manipulations (as seen in many Arab League nations) are emulated on the Arab-Palestinian of the Israeli-Arab Palestinian Conflict. And this replicant is almost entirely based on a hold of absolute power, typically one based on a system of graft and corruption and → a measure of subservience.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

Coyote

With respect to economic disparity between Arabs and Jews in Israel -- I'm also going to add that the assumption that the CAUSE of the disparity is Jewish discrimination against Arabs is probably too simplistic.

For example, the Bedouin community is reluctant to give up its nomadic, pastoral lifestyle. If CHOICE is the ultimate humane goal, should they be forced to modernize? If they choose to have a life which is categorized by poverty according to the Western definition of need for wealth, is that discrimination on the part of Israel? On the contrary, I'd argue that meeting their desire to maintain their historical lifestyle is beneficial and more "humane" than forcing them to modernize and thus their "poverty" (by Western standards) should be maintained.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote

With respect to economic disparity between Arabs and Jews in Israel -- I'm also going to add that the assumption that the CAUSE of the disparity is Jewish discrimination against Arabs is probably too simplistic.

For example, the Bedouin community is reluctant to give up its nomadic, pastoral lifestyle. If CHOICE is the ultimate humane goal, should they be forced to modernize? If they choose to have a life which is categorized by poverty according to the Western definition of need for wealth, is that discrimination on the part of Israel? On the contrary, I'd argue that meeting their desire to maintain their historical lifestyle is beneficial and more "humane" than forcing them to modernize and thus their "poverty" (by Western standards) should be maintained.

I think the Bedouin are a distinct group, with issues that are different than other Arab Israeli's, and their case is particularly difficult because it's the same issue faced by traditionally nomadic people's everywhere. I actually agree with you on that.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not talking about Palestinians but Arab Israeli's. Who should be equal citizens. don't you think that discrimination FEEDS hostility?

It IS Israel's responsibility to fix social injustice within it's nation.

Of course its Israel's responsibility to fix social injustices within its nation. But it is impossible to do that in the context of at least some of those Arab Israelis being hostile to the entire IDEA of Israel and a Jewish nation.

I don't think, in this context, discrimination feeds hostility. Rather I think the hostility emanates from a rejection of Jewish rights and self-determination. That is the source of the conflict. And I think once we correct for that hostility and end the conflict and allow people to choose where they would like to live, the social injustices of discrimination in Israel will ease as much or better than any other culturally diverse nation such as Canada and the US and Australia.

I would disagree. You're creating a self-reinforcing cycle where Arabs do in reality, suffer discrimmination on a variety of fronts and are very aware of this, which feeds hostility on top of whatever feeling they might have in regards to Jewish sovereignty. Continuing that inequity by never addressing it just serves to reinforce that hostility. Respect, equality, wealth, and opportunity go a long way towards alleviating hostility. I think it's important to note many Arab Israeli's would choose to live in Israel over a Palestinian state (according to polls I've read).

The cycle is created by introducing such vague terms as "respect, wealth, opportunity" without actually addressing anything at hand. Finding or claiming discrimination easiest thing around today, especially in the US, in a way it creates a cycle in its' own - when minorities are taught to remain weak (or merely keep the image) because it's a convenient position. It has turned into a whole industry with thousands of jobs at stake.

That logic could very likely lead one to accuse the Sun for a systematic violation of basic human rights.

I don't think this is a case of "finding" or "claiming" discrimination...it does exist and can create barriers to opportunities, I'm not saying it exists in all cases, but it is there. Once you remove it, and opportunities are equalized - then, you can look at other reasons for disparities.

 

[Coyote]

Israeli legislators have recognized the inequality in government spending - this article is from 2015 (I'm not sure where this legislative effort ended up) but it points out the inequities:

Israel looks to address funding gaps for Arab community with $3.9 billion plan

The largest ever government plan to advance the economic development of Israel’s Arab population will go to the cabinet for approval on Wednesday, but Israeli Arab leaders said they were skeptical the ambitious plan would be put into effect given the current atmosphere in the country.


The proposal calls for 15 billion shekels ($3.86 billion) in extra funding on top of anything now allocated to Arab communities in the state budget. The money is to be devoted to developing infrastructure, industry, education and healthcare. The details of the plan were ironed out over the last two weeks in discussions between treasury officials and MK Ayman Odeh, chairman of the Joint Arab List.


But Arab lawmakers and public figures have expressed doubts about the likelihood of the plan being implemented, especially given the current atmosphere in Israel. The cabinet was supposed to approve the plan on Sunday, but the vote was delayed amid opposition from Likud ministers, including from Culture Minister Miri Regev, who said the plan did not include mixed cities of Hafia, Tel Aviv-Jaffa, Ramle and Lod. Sources said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu felt uncomfortable approving the measure before the meeting of the Likud Central Committee Tuesday.

“We will be wiser after the cabinet meeting. Meanwhile, we are talking about promises and maybe a decision, which in the end has to be implemented,” said Sakhnin Mayor Mazen Ghanaim, who is also head of the Higher Arab Monitoring Committee. “If it is implemented, it will be a step in the right direction. Anyone who thinks this will lead to equality is wrong. It’s a step in the right direction on a long road,” he added.


The draft resolution details the gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs. While Arabs constitute about 20% of Israel’s population, only 7% of the government’s budget for public transportation goes to Arab communities. Moreover, some 34% of those killed in traffic accidents are Arab.

Only 3.5% of industrial zones in Israel are in Arab communities.


According to figures for 2014, 75.4% of Arab men between the ages of 25 and 64 were employed, compared with 85.7% of Jewish men who are not Haredi. Only 33.2% of adult Arab women were employed, versus 79.9% Jewish women. The plan calls for spending 24 million shekels on incentives to employers and small and medium-size businesses in the Arab community, as well as a 25% increase in the budget for building daycare centers in Arab towns. The Finance Ministry will allocate 200 million shekels to the Economy Ministry for employment-counselling centers in Arab communities.


In education, only 59.5% of students in the Arab school system are eligible for matriculation certificates, as opposed to 75.1% in the Jewish secular and state religious systems. The plan calls for a program led by the Education Ministry to improve Arabic and Hebrew language skills, with an emphasis on speaking and writing, from kindergarten through 12th grade.


By 2021, the plan calls for Arab undergraduates at Israeli universities to reach 17%, which would be an increase from 14% last year, and a similar boost for post-graduate students.


In housing, the plan states that 20 percent of the investment in public institutions will be in Arab communities, and that 30 percent of the fund for protection of open spaces is to be earmarked for Arab communities. ​

Okay, THAT is a lot to unpack. First, the Haaretz article is paywalled so...ugh. Found a similar article from ToI which was long on yay Israel and short on actual facts.

I'll see what I can find...but meantime, isn't Israel doing exactly what it should in this situation? Providing additional funding to improve Arab communities?


Oh, and also, isn't the discrepancy between female percentage employment Arab vs Jew related to an Arab cultural issue, rather than discrimination from Israel?

I'm curious - are you not able to read the article? I don't subscribe to Haaretz, but it allows me to read a certain number of articles for free.

On your second paragraph - I'm not sure, that article was 2015 - did the measure actually pass? That was in question in that article.

In terms of the female percentage - yes, I agree, I think that one is more of culture than discrimination.

 

[Coyote]

I'm not talking about Palestinians but Arab Israeli's. Who should be equal citizens. don't you think that discrimination FEEDS hostility?

It IS Israel's responsibility to fix social injustice within it's nation.

Of course its Israel's responsibility to fix social injustices within its nation. But it is impossible to do that in the context of at least some of those Arab Israelis being hostile to the entire IDEA of Israel and a Jewish nation.

I don't think, in this context, discrimination feeds hostility. Rather I think the hostility emanates from a rejection of Jewish rights and self-determination. That is the source of the conflict. And I think once we correct for that hostility and end the conflict and allow people to choose where they would like to live, the social injustices of discrimination in Israel will ease as much or better than any other culturally diverse nation such as Canada and the US and Australia.

I would disagree. You're creating a self-reinforcing cycle where Arabs do in reality, suffer discrimmination on a variety of fronts and are very aware of this, which feeds hostility on top of whatever feeling they might have in regards to Jewish sovereignty. Continuing that inequity by never addressing it just serves to reinforce that hostility. Respect, equality, wealth, and opportunity go a long way towards alleviating hostility. I think it's important to note many Arab Israeli's would choose to live in Israel over a Palestinian state (according to polls I've read).

And I disagree. (But I still appreciate the level of discourse). You can't end the perception of discrimination in the context of a denial of a right to sovereignty. When Arabs believe Israel (read: Jews) have no right to "rule over them" -- everything, real or not, will be perceived as a "wrong". And you can't end discrimination in the context of the conflict where Israelis are (legitimately) fearful of Arabs. Those things need to sort themselves out first.

Arabs are also fearful of the Jews - which, creates yet another impasse. They see the Jews as oppressers, the discrimmination reinforces that belief and so on. What is the one thing Israel, on it's own, can change? Not people's belief's per se - but they CAN change their situations which in turn might affect their beliefs.

 

[Shusha]

Arabs are also fearful of the Jews - which, creates yet another impasse. They see the Jews as oppressers, ...

Interesting. But isn't that is a direct result of the narrative of the conflict? Absent the conflict, would they see Jews as oppressors? Or would they see them as equals?

 

[Shusha]

I'm curious - are you not able to read the article? I don't subscribe to Haaretz, but it allows me to read a certain number of articles for free.

No, I'm paywalled. I probably get a certain number of free articles per month, but I probably also use them up by the 2nd.

 

[Coyote]

Arabs are also fearful of the Jews - which, creates yet another impasse. They see the Jews as oppressers, ...

Interesting. But isn't that is a direct result of the narrative of the conflict? Absent the conflict, would they see Jews as oppressors? Or would they see them as equals?

I don't know - everyone is so deep into their mistrust of the other side, and there is a powerful Arab belief in anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. But beyond that - neither side trusts the motivations of the other. Jews believe the Arabs will drive them into the sea, Arabs believe the Jews will prevent them from ever gaining a state.

 

[Shusha]

I don't know - everyone is so deep into their mistrust of the other side, and there is a powerful Arab belief in anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. But beyond that - neither side trusts the motivations of the other. Jews believe the Arabs will drive them into the sea, Arabs believe the Jews will prevent them from ever gaining a state.

And its frustrating, isn't it? But on the other hand, one would have to evaluate the REALITY of each peoples' fears, don't you think? To say that each side mistrusts the other gives the same weight to both sides. And I don't think that is either true or fair.

Just look at this thread. Was there an uproar about Palestine making a Basic Law which is objectively "worse" than Israels? No. There is a double standard at play here.

 

[Coyote]

I don't know - everyone is so deep into their mistrust of the other side, and there is a powerful Arab belief in anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. But beyond that - neither side trusts the motivations of the other. Jews believe the Arabs will drive them into the sea, Arabs believe the Jews will prevent them from ever gaining a state.

And its frustrating, isn't it? But on the other hand, one would have to evaluate the REALITY of each peoples' fears, don't you think? To say that each side mistrusts the other gives the same weight to both sides. And I don't think that is either true or fair.

Just look at this thread. Was there an uproar about Palestine making a Basic Law which is objectively "worse" than Israels? No. There is a double standard at play here.

Who are we to judge the reality of the fears though? Do all the Palestinians really want to kill all the Jews? Do the Jews really want all the land for themselves? In the end it is what people believe that matters, whether it's real or not. For example the Palestinians see Jewish settlements popping up in areas they feel are for their own future state. They see moratoriums on settlement expansion constantly flouted. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, it's the perception being fed that Israel really wants all the real estate for Jews that then feeds the fears that there will be no room for them. Likewise, actual attacks on Jews from Palestinians reinforce their belief that Palestinians seek their eradication. How real are each one's fears depends on where you stand and what you have to lose.

 

[Coyote]

I don't know - everyone is so deep into their mistrust of the other side, and there is a powerful Arab belief in anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. But beyond that - neither side trusts the motivations of the other. Jews believe the Arabs will drive them into the sea, Arabs believe the Jews will prevent them from ever gaining a state.

And its frustrating, isn't it? But on the other hand, one would have to evaluate the REALITY of each peoples' fears, don't you think? To say that each side mistrusts the other gives the same weight to both sides. And I don't think that is either true or fair.

Just look at this thread. Was there an uproar about Palestine making a Basic Law which is objectively "worse" than Israels? No. There is a double standard at play here.

But there is no state of Palestine. There is only talk. Until you HAVE a state, and you have to really think about what that means and what you want for it's future, is it really comparable to an actual state?

 

[Shusha]

Who are we to judge the reality of the fears though? Do all the Palestinians really want to kill all the Jews? Do the Jews really want all the land for themselves? In the end it is what people believe that matters, whether it's real or not. For example the Palestinians see Jewish settlements popping up in areas they feel are for their own future state. They see moratoriums on settlement expansion constantly flouted. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, it's the perception being fed that Israel really wants all the real estate for Jews that then feeds the fears that there will be no room for them. Likewise, actual attacks on Jews from Palestinians reinforce their belief that Palestinians seek their eradication. How real are each one's fears depends on where you stand and what you have to lose.

Respecting people's irrational fears leads us nowhere. Irrational fears need to be addressed, not fed. How real one's fears are depends ONLY on the actions of the people whom you are afraid of.

As an example -- what is the "fear' with Jewish people living in a place? Why can't Jewish people live in a future State of Palestine? Where is the "fear" in having Jewish people live in Palestine. Israel can do it. Why can't Palestine. So, objectively, is that a rational fear or an irrational fear?