CDZ Not only responsible gun owners, but gun shop owners

[saveliberty]

I know private sellers do not behave as the gun shop did in this case. They couldn't behave as the gun shop did in this case.

Couldn't? Interesting, please cite where it is illegal to ask for information before you sell.

 

[saveliberty]

For weeks we have heard, give us a common sense approach to protecting kids in schools. A gun store owner does something along those lines and the media is almost mute. Why could that possibly be?

Don't know. Ask fox. I haven't heard anything much from them on the subject.

Well, at least you admit to a lack of understanding, yet you present yourself as an authority on the subject.

 

[BULLDOG]

No doubt MSM will not touch. They hate it when one of their robots is stopped before the murders.

It begs the question, how strong is the vetting on student visas.

It begs the question, why didn't he just go to an individual seller? Nobody could have turned him in, because there is no requirement to even give his name.

Seems like you are suppose to not be a felon, that would mean some level of vetting. Someone withholding their name would be reason enough for me to make a no sale.

Yet no possible way to report it to anyone. You thing anyone selling a gun has some magical restriction that makes them care who they sell a gun to? Lots of sellers wouldn't care if a name was supplied. There is no requirement to give any information.

Weird, because this gun store owner seemed to be able to report it. He seemed to care. You seem to be straining to make this a negative.

Yes. Gun stores are required to gather information about the sellers, which they can then turn over to the police. Individual sales have no such requirement, and very little desire to gather such information.

 

[saveliberty]

For weeks we have heard, give us a common sense approach to protecting kids in schools. A gun store owner does something along those lines and the media is almost mute. Why could that possibly be?

Don't know. Ask fox. I haven't heard anything much from them on the subject.

Well, at least you admit to a lack of understanding, yet you present yourself as an authority on the subject.

Also, I'll take a link to a Fox story on this, where did you see it?

 

[saveliberty]

Yes. Gun stores are required to gather information about the sellers, which they can then turn over to the police. Individual sales have no such requirement, and very little desire to gather such information.

Seems you lack a source to back your opinion there Bulldog.

 

[BULLDOG]

I know private sellers do not behave as the gun shop did in this case. They couldn't behave as the gun shop did in this case.

Couldn't? Interesting, please cite where it is illegal to ask for information before you sell.

Not illegal. Just not required, and there is certainly no requirement for the buyer to supply any information. Are you relying on your gut feeling that NO gun owner would sell to a questionable purchaser?

 

[saveliberty]

I know private sellers do not behave as the gun shop did in this case. They couldn't behave as the gun shop did in this case.

Couldn't? Interesting, please cite where it is illegal to ask for information before you sell.

Not illegal. Just not required, and there is certainly no requirement for the buyer to supply any information. Are you relying on your gut feeling that NO gun owner would sell to a questionable purchaser?

There's a requirement if the buyer wants the gun and the seller demands it. Are you suggesting there is no benefit to acting the way the gun store owner did? Why do you refuse to support more people acting this way?

 

[rightwinger]

Syracuse University Student Deported After Gun Store Owner Prevents Potential School Shooting

Syracuse University Student Deported After Gun Store Owner Prevents Potential School Shooting


The actions of a small-town gun store owner helped police short-circuit what they believe was a Syracuse University student’s plan to commit a mass shooting.

As a result, Xiaoteng Zhan, 22, was deported to his home country of China last month, according to Syracuse.com. Police did not reveal the incident had taken place until Friday.

In early March, Zhan visited The Gun Store in the Madison County town of Nelson, population 1,980, shop owner John Laubscher told Syracuse.com. The town is about 15 miles from Syracuse. Laubscher said Zhan wanted an AR-15.

Laubscher described Zhan as “on the edge” and said his lack of understanding about guns made him stand out.

As a result of his concerns, Laubscher refused to sell Zhan a gun.

However, Syracuse University acted in the meantime to withdraw Zhan’s status as a student, which meant his visa to study in the U.S. was no longer valid. So, when he returned from spring break on March 20, officials deported him.

This is a text book example of how the gun shop, police, the school and concerned friends can work together.

Good for him

Gun shops need to act more like bartenders cutting off someone who is obviously drunk

 

[frigidweirdo]

Syracuse University Student Deported After Gun Store Owner Prevents Potential School Shooting

Syracuse University Student Deported After Gun Store Owner Prevents Potential School Shooting


The actions of a small-town gun store owner helped police short-circuit what they believe was a Syracuse University student’s plan to commit a mass shooting.

As a result, Xiaoteng Zhan, 22, was deported to his home country of China last month, according to Syracuse.com. Police did not reveal the incident had taken place until Friday.

In early March, Zhan visited The Gun Store in the Madison County town of Nelson, population 1,980, shop owner John Laubscher told Syracuse.com. The town is about 15 miles from Syracuse. Laubscher said Zhan wanted an AR-15.

Laubscher described Zhan as “on the edge” and said his lack of understanding about guns made him stand out.

As a result of his concerns, Laubscher refused to sell Zhan a gun.

However, Syracuse University acted in the meantime to withdraw Zhan’s status as a student, which meant his visa to study in the U.S. was no longer valid. So, when he returned from spring break on March 20, officials deported him.

This is a text book example of how the gun shop, police, the school and concerned friends can work together.

So, Chinese person tries to buy a gun, then gets deported.

Is that it?

Were there any signs he was going to actually do anything? Did he admit to anything?

 

[saveliberty]

So, Chinese person tries to buy a gun, then gets deported.

Is that it?

Were there any signs he was going to actually do anything? Did he admit to anything?

Don't let the fact the article is linked for you frigid, stop you from asking questions you can answer for yourself.

 

[BULLDOG]

Yes. Gun stores are required to gather information about the sellers, which they can then turn over to the police. Individual sales have no such requirement, and very little desire to gather such information.

Seems you lack a source to back your opinion there Bulldog.

Note no requirement to ask for, or supply any information

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

 

[saveliberty]

Yes. Gun stores are required to gather information about the sellers, which they can then turn over to the police. Individual sales have no such requirement, and very little desire to gather such information.

Seems you lack a source to back your opinion there Bulldog.

Note no requirement to ask for, or supply any information

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw
View attachment 186804

You missed the little desire part by a mile. Yet there is a requirement to avoid selling to a felon. See any benefit to asking some questions there?

 

[BULLDOG]

I know private sellers do not behave as the gun shop did in this case. They couldn't behave as the gun shop did in this case.

Couldn't? Interesting, please cite where it is illegal to ask for information before you sell.

Not illegal. Just not required, and there is certainly no requirement for the buyer to supply any information. Are you relying on your gut feeling that NO gun owner would sell to a questionable purchaser?

There's a requirement if the buyer wants the gun and the seller demands it. Are you suggesting there is no benefit to acting the way the gun store owner did? Why do you refuse to support more people acting this way?

Nothing to do with sellers individual choices. He has every legal right to go either way on that.

 

[saveliberty]

Nothing to do with sellers individual choices. He has every legal right to go either way on that.

The OP is not about individual sellers, you created the false premise. I simply allowed you to avoid answering my basic question of is it not a good idea to do what this gun shop owner did. The evasion was entertaining, yet pointless.

 

[BULLDOG]

Yes. Gun stores are required to gather information about the sellers, which they can then turn over to the police. Individual sales have no such requirement, and very little desire to gather such information.

Seems you lack a source to back your opinion there Bulldog.

Note no requirement to ask for, or supply any information

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw
View attachment 186804

You missed the little desire part by a mile. Yet there is a requirement to avoid selling to a felon. See any benefit to asking some questions there?

See any requirement to ask any questions there? The seller can claim he doesn't know the buyer, or whether the buyer is a felon, or otherwise disallowed to buy a gun. In many cases, that would be true, and in most cases it would be hard to prove, even if they did know.

 

[saveliberty]

Yes. Gun stores are required to gather information about the sellers, which they can then turn over to the police. Individual sales have no such requirement, and very little desire to gather such information.

Seems you lack a source to back your opinion there Bulldog.

Note no requirement to ask for, or supply any information

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw
View attachment 186804

You missed the little desire part by a mile. Yet there is a requirement to avoid selling to a felon. See any benefit to asking some questions there?

See any requirement to ask any questions there? The seller can claim he doesn't know the buyer, or whether the buyer is a felon, or otherwise disallowed to buy a gun. In many cases, that would be true, and in most cases it would be hard to prove, even if they did know.

Again, you made up the argument of private sellers and avoided the OP. That is not a debate point. We are in the CDZ.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Note no requirement to ask for, or supply any information

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

22 States have regulations regarding the private sales... 28 have no requirements when the seller is NOT a licensed dealer... How come your stats are different?

 

[BULLDOG]

Nothing to do with sellers individual choices. He has every legal right to go either way on that.

The OP is not about individual sellers, you created the false premise. I simply allowed you to avoid answering my basic question of is it not a good idea to do what this gun shop owner did. The evasion was entertaining, yet pointless.

Got it. You have no credible response to individual sellers in the same position.
Yes, it is good that the gun shop owner did what he did. All the more reason why universal background checks should be enacted so all sellers could have the ability to do the same thing.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Syracuse University Student Deported After Gun Store Owner Prevents Potential School Shooting

Syracuse University Student Deported After Gun Store Owner Prevents Potential School Shooting


The actions of a small-town gun store owner helped police short-circuit what they believe was a Syracuse University student’s plan to commit a mass shooting.

As a result, Xiaoteng Zhan, 22, was deported to his home country of China last month, according to Syracuse.com. Police did not reveal the incident had taken place until Friday.

In early March, Zhan visited The Gun Store in the Madison County town of Nelson, population 1,980, shop owner John Laubscher told Syracuse.com. The town is about 15 miles from Syracuse. Laubscher said Zhan wanted an AR-15.

Laubscher described Zhan as “on the edge” and said his lack of understanding about guns made him stand out.

As a result of his concerns, Laubscher refused to sell Zhan a gun.

However, Syracuse University acted in the meantime to withdraw Zhan’s status as a student, which meant his visa to study in the U.S. was no longer valid. So, when he returned from spring break on March 20, officials deported him.

This is a text book example of how the gun shop, police, the school and concerned friends can work together.

Excuse me?

I think it's great that Laubscher may have helped avert yet another unlawful shooting. So kudos to him for that. Nonetheless, he was out of line.

Zhan visited The Gun Store [and] shop owner John Laubscher told Syracuse.com. [that] Zhan wanted an AR-15. Laubscher described Zhan as “on the edge” and said his lack of understanding about guns made him stand out. As a result of his concerns, Laubscher refused to sell Zhan a gun.

So now we have gun store owners, not clinical psychologists, determining the mental stability/status of potential customers. I don't mind requiring that would-be buyers of guns be subject to some sort of evaluation to establish that they are at least "sane" when they buy a firearm. I mind very much someone who's not qualified to make such an assessment making it and acting upon their non-professional opinion about such things.

Doing that is tantamount to vigilante psychoanalysis, which, as far as I'm concerned, is no more consionable than is vigilante law enforcement. Laubscher was right to report his observations to the police. No question on that. He "saw something" and so he "said something." That is the right thing to do.

Unilaterally concluding on another's mental state -- Laubscher used the clearly unspecific phrase "on the edge" to describe Zhan's mental state at the time -- absent training to do so, and absent overt indicators, is beyond the scope of what non-clinicians have any right to do.

“When we explained to him the limitations on AR’s that you can get in New York, he jumped right from that to a shotgun, and then his interest was in the highest capacity shotgun that we had." Zhan had a hunting license [and] expressed his lack of knowledge about the [AR-15] gun [he initially inquired about]. He told the shop owner he would take a gun safety course at Syracuse University to learn how to use the weapon.

“When was the last time you heard of a tactical shotgun class at SU?”

First:

I really don't know what SU teaches. I know a state university near me -- University of Maryland -- does (and has for some time) collaborate with the 4-H to teach shooting sports/skills.

• Our programs are valuable for helping young people develop self-confidence, personal discipline, responsibility, teamwork, self-esteem and sportsmanship. The discipline and self-control required for responsible firearms use carries over into many other aspects of life.
• Nearly two-thirds of the homes in the U.S. have firearms. Exposure to safety and responsible handling is vital to preventing accidents at home, at neighbors, or at a friend's home.

Indeed, the 4-H has similar partnerships with several universities, though I don't know how many overall or whether Syracuse is among them.

• Shooting Sports Activities and Events | 4-H Youth Development
• Shooting Sports | State 4H
• Davis County 4-H
• 2016 NYS 4-H Shooting Sports Dates (Cornell)

Second:

• Since when did expert knowledge about an item become a requirement for purchasing it?
• How much does one need to know about a firearm, firearm operation, or firearm safety to know not to point/aim it at people and to maintain one's firearms such that unauthorized persons cannot gain access to it?

Third:

While I am thrilled that Zhan may have been, it seems (based on what's reported in the article the OP references), prevented from carrying out an unlawful shooting, I'm not thrilled about the manner in which that possible outcome was achieved.

• Yes, I would welcome greater controls on access to guns. To obtain that, however, extant jurisprudence must be amended and revised. Until that happens, the current laws and jurist interpretations of them are what they are and must be adhered to, at least they must be by individuals not uniquely positioned and formally accorded limited discretion to not do so.
• It really doesn't matter to me who "saw something and said something." Doing that is everyone's responsibility, regardless of their position on gun rights/control.
  
  And people have the gall to talk about "snowflakes." Sheesh. One doesn't deserve an "atta boy" for doing what one is supposed to do in the first place; behavior of that nature when exhibited by adults isn't even noteworthy. Accolades, notoriety, etc. are rightly awarded for exceeding expectations, not merely meeting them.

Aside:

Whether Laubscher is prescient or just lucky is not clear, but either way, he isn't particularly rational. To wit:

I have a very uneasy feeling that this could have happen in our hometown, here in Syracuse. It could happen right anywhere, but the fact that it could happen right here is scary.
-- John Laubscher, Owner, The Gun Store, Nelson, NY

Well, duh! Of course, unlawful shootings can happen "right there." There are guns there, there are people there, and even if there weren't people there, people have the means to with guns arrive there; consequently, "this" can happen there. That unlawful gun use can happen "right there" or anywhere is the immutable fact that gun control advocates have discerned and that gun rights advocates consistently (1) discount, (2) reject all material solution proposals to reduce the risk that it can happen anywhere, and (3) offer no solution ideas to attenuate the risk that it can happen anywhere.​

Syracuse University acted in the meantime to withdraw Zhan’s status as a student

Was the university's action taken independently of Laubscher's reports to the cops? I don't know, and the article is not clear on that point. It merely states that Syracuse U. acted contemporaneously. For all I know, Zhan may have done something (or not done something) that was both unrelated to his gun purchase attempts and that gave Syracuse U. administrators cause to expel him.

 

[BULLDOG]

Note no requirement to ask for, or supply any information

Private Gun Sale Laws by State - FindLaw

22 States have regulations regarding the private sales... 28 have no requirements when the seller is NOT a licensed dealer... How come your stats are different?

I'm not sure. What source are you using, and I will compare to see where the difference is. I have no desire to use inaccurate sources, and I appreciate when inaccuracies are pointed out.