Not going to work, an interesting dichotomy.

[Mac-7]

But I think we should. I think anti-discrimination laws enforced against anyone but the Govt are unconstitutional

Good for you

 

[Donald H]

Supply and Demand! The very meaning of capitalism!

America's capitalist system has been bastardized by greed and now labour has found itself in a position in which it will become a factor.

However, America's labour still faces a losing battle due to China now doing it cheaper and better.

America's large companies and corporations took their business to China and in so doing they were acting proactively to the crunch that always faces capitalism eventually.

Milty Friedman would understand completely why America's jobs went to China and as a faithful capitalist he would have to support corporations' right to seek out the most lucrative marketplace and the lower wages.

 

[Donald H]

But I think we should. I think anti-discrimination laws enforced against anyone but the Govt are unconstitutional

Solid and established rules of capitalism would agree with you. The only principles that apply to capitalism are 'supply and demand'.

What a learning experience this discussion offers!
Social responsibility and socialist policies must not become a part of true capitalism!
Any of that which has crept into the American system must be eliminated and destroyed.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Solid and established rules of capitalism would agree with you. The only principles that apply to capitalism are 'supply and demand'.

What a learning experience this discussion offers!
Social responsibility and socialist policies must not become a part of true capitalism!
Any of that which has crept into the American system must be eliminated and destroyed.

You are correct about capitalism, the other part of it many do not understand is there are no borders or nationalism in capitalism.

 

[danielpalos]

Equal protection of the law for unemployment compensation, in this case, means correcting for that economic inefficiency.

It is about full employment of resources.

 

[Oldestyle]

What the truth is that these low paying jobs are more plentiful than we have workers to perform them.
And these low paying jobs have increased risks that should include hazard pay by most people's understanding.

If a person works a graveyard shift or Sundays there is usually a shift differential that automatically includes a raise in pay. If the job is inherently dangerous there is yet another hefty differential for pay...

But currently no one is paying one for taking the risk of working with the public in the middle of a global pandemic. When the hospital bills and medicines alone are going to wipe out any paychecks you earn.
And possibly you can end up with permanent disability of lung, kidney, liver damage... possibly neurological damage of loss of smell or taste.
Lots of various hazards that are not met by protocols (a small piece of plexiglass or masks?)

Then there's management...they absolutely have zero loyalty to their staff. If you get sick you are fired. You are disposable to them...the best anyone ever got out of these managers is to have all the credit for exemplary work taken by your manager as they get yet another promotion and raise in pay while now you get to be fired because "you know too much".

I don't blame the people one tiny bit for the risk/reward analysis and decided to stay home.

Have you worked as a "manager", John? I have and the picture you paint of how managers treat employees borders on laughable! Let me fill you in on how it really is with any competent manager! Good employees are like a gift from above for a manager! They are treasured not mistreated! Someone who is reliable, honest and hardworking? They're the employees that managers LOVE!
Why is it that I get the feeling that you're NOT one of those employees? Why is it that I suspect that you're one of the employees that calls out sick at the last minute just because you don't feel like working that day? Why do I get the feeling that you're one of those employees that cuts corners whenever possible and couldn't care less about the quality of work you do? The kind of employee that always blames others when they get let go?

 

[Donald H]

You are correct about capitalism, the other part of it many do not understand is there are no borders or nationalism in capitalism.

Yes, correct in some sense but not limiting the decision of the capitalist to choose in any way.
It's only the socialist who will attempt to impose some qualifications on the capitalist's freedom to do business.

We can now conclude that China can't be blamed for taking America's jobs. America's capitalists were invited by China to go to China and set up shop. China even offered America a choice of Chinese labour or American labour. America's capitalists chose Chinese labour.

And in return for that, China asked for access to American markets (Walmarts were created) and asked for American technology to be shared.

 

[Oldestyle]

Equal protection of the law for unemployment compensation, in this case, means correcting for that economic inefficiency.

It is about full employment of resources.

Go away, Daniel...this is a conversation by people that actually have a clue. Your gibberish is simply a waste of board space!

 

[Donald H]

Have you worked as a "manager", John? I have and the picture you paint of how managers treat employees borders on laughable! Let me fill you in on how it really is with any competent manager! Good employees are like a gift from above for a manager! They are treasured not mistreated! Someone who is reliable, honest and hardworking? They're the employees that managers LOVE!
Why is it that I get the feeling that you're NOT one of those employees? Why is it that I suspect that you're one of the employees that calls out sick at the last minute just because you don't feel like working that day? Why do I get the feeling that you're one of those employees that cuts corners whenever possible and couldn't care less about the quality of work you do? The kind of employee that always blames others when they get let go?

Supply and demand is still the overriding rule. If the supply of good and faithful labour that shows up to work every day is not there then the employer must seek out more desirable labour and he must then pay the going rate to obtain it!

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Have you worked as a "manager", John? I have and the picture you paint of how managers treat employees borders on laughable! Let me fill you in on how it really is with any competent manager! Good employees are like a gift from above for a manager! They are treasured not mistreated! Someone who is reliable, honest and hardworking? They're the employees that managers LOVE!

Well said. When I was still in management I had my boss one day ask me why I was so nice to my employees, I told her that a happy employee is a good employee....she laughed at me. Needless to say I got far more out of those working for me than she did us who worked for her

 

[Donald H]

Employers who are true to the dictates of capitalism also accept unions with teeth. They also accept the workers' right to withdraw their labour and the right to withdraw employment of workers.

 

[JohnDB]

Have you worked as a "manager", John? I have and the picture you paint of how managers treat employees borders on laughable! Let me fill you in on how it really is with any competent manager! Good employees are like a gift from above for a manager! They are treasured not mistreated! Someone who is reliable, honest and hardworking? They're the employees that managers LOVE!
Why is it that I get the feeling that you're NOT one of those employees? Why is it that I suspect that you're one of the employees that calls out sick at the last minute just because you don't feel like working that day? Why do I get the feeling that you're one of those employees that cuts corners whenever possible and couldn't care less about the quality of work you do? The kind of employee that always blames others when they get let go?

Actually I'm usually the one in charge...I'm somewhat unused to being just "one of the crew".
I'm usually highly successful at it too...and extremely surprising to my superiors... because I don't behave like the rest of their worthless management teams.
Yes, most management teams today are worthless. I don't know why or how the SOP has happened but it's not anything that is going to encourage and endear the crew who will either make you succeed or fail.

I literally had my team chanting the Dennis Leary song "Asshole" on the job in Thanksgiving that they were on my team versus any of the other teams. I rolled my eyes every time I heard it too....as it was meant as the exact opposite. I became very quickly the tallest nail that got pounded regularly. It didn't matter as I always kept my nose clean. But the performance my crew accomplished was impossible to ignore.

We, together celebrated every accomplishment and success...and we faced some real obstacles and hindrances. And still made practically magic happen. But I had their backs when they put forth effort and was aware when they did so. (Or when they didn't) Usually I never had to say anything about performance or being on time...the rest of the crew did it for me.
Except for the kids....I used it as a teaching moment to explain that if you were going to be late you needed to get some biscuits for everyone so that my mouth was too full of biscuits to bitch much about them being late to work.

 

[Donald H]

Well said. When I was still in management I had my boss one day ask me why I was so nice to my employees, I told her that a happy employee is a good employee....she laughed at me. Needless to say I got far more out of those working for me than she did us who worked for her

An employees happiness comes from acceptable wages and benefits, as unhappiness and poor work performance comes from inadequate wages and benefits.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

An employees happiness comes from acceptable wages and benefits, as unhappiness and poor work performance comes from inadequate wages and benefits.

That is a big part of it, but if you treat an employee like dirt, almost no amount of pay will keep them.

 

[Donald H]

deleted.

 

[Oldestyle]

Supply and demand is still the overriding rule. If the supply of good and faithful labour that shows up to work every day is not there then the employer must seek out more desirable labour and he must then pay the going rate to obtain it!

To be honest Donald...my experience is that paying more money doesn't get you "good and faithful" employees. People like working for managers that treat them well. Managers like employees that love the job as much if not more than the pay. The people you get when you have to pay them to get off of their asses and get a job are usually the ones you want to get rid of once they are working for you! I'll take one employee who takes pride in their work over three who could care less as long as they're getting a pay check at the end of the week. Let those employees go work for Big Government!

 

[Oldestyle]

I'll also say that the people who I've worked with that took pride in their work...almost without exception ended up making far more than the people who just showed up for a paycheck. They're the ones people WANT to bring business to...they're the ones that make more in tips...more in bonuses...and the people that get promoted. This concept that you need to get paid up front before you'll show up and work? That's naive!

 

[Donald H]

That is a big part of it, but if you treat an employee like dirt, almost no amount of pay will keep them.

If management allows first line supervisors to treat employees like dirt then his business could very likely fail.
Or also quite likely, management could be forced to increase wages and benefits to compensate for the lower quality working conditions created by supervisors.

And once again it comes down to supply and demand.
Milton Friedman understood this very well. If you want to be a true capitalist you're going to have to accept the basic rules.

But if you are willing to allow social responsibility to bastardize capitalism then you are given lots of ammunition with which to debate the issue.

 

[Donald H]

To be honest Donald...my experience is that paying more money doesn't get you "good and faithful" employees. People like working for managers that treat them well. Managers like employees that love the job as much if not more than the pay. The people you get when you have to pay them to get off of their asses and get a job are usually the ones you want to get rid of once they are working for you! I'll take one employee who takes pride in their work over three who could care less as long as they're getting a pay check at the end of the week. Let those employees go work for Big Government!

Having employees who love their jobs is a bonus.
Having jobs that employees can love is a greater bonus.
I would suggest that any workplace that doesn't offer fair wages and benefits isn't going to have either.
Are you inventing an exception that we are expected to accept? Or is your workplace the rare exception?

But then should we believe it was all roses when you've already told us that you were unhappy with the performance of your supervisor?

 

[Donald H]

This concept that you need to get paid up front before you'll show up and work? That's naive!

Do you really think so?

Or are you trying to say that the worker must be 'literally' paid in advance of going to work?
I think you must mean something else, figuratively speaking.
In any case, you've now introduced some dishonesty into the discussion. Accidentally?

Signing bonus?