No such thing as GREEN

[krotchdog]

Abuse of words has been the great instrument of sophistry and chicanery, of party, faction, and division of society. John Adams

I had such a clever thread thought out where are started off by flaming who I consider liberal greens but after posting in another thread I decided to change my intro. I am just such a nice guy but actually its my intelligence that made the difference.

This is such a serious subject it needs a serious discussion.

This is more than Bush vs Obama, Republican vs Democrat, Conservative vs Liberal.

This is about our future, its about being enslaved to corporations. Do not confuse capitalism with corporations. Capitalism is what has given us all that is good, everything we live and breath came from the good of capitalism. All that is bad comes from individuals, individuals that rise to the power within corporations. Individuals that are born into power and money. Individuals that rise to power in politics.

That is why we have laws and the constitution, the founders new how easily a little power corrupts the individual.

Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak

There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.


Abuse of words has been the great instrument of sophistry and chicanery, of party, faction, and division of society.

Because power corrupts, society's demands for moral authority and character increase as the importance of the position increases.

Quotes from John Adams

Its amazing to see the intelligence of our founders. These were men of great education that spent thier lives studying all that was written by many great men throughout the centuries.

The times have changed but not the nature of men. That is why its so important we understand the two documents that establish or laws, The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

The Green revolution has nothing to do with cleaning the earth and making it better, its about power.

Anyone who thinks green is good does not understand, has not thought through exactly what is happening to go green. I started this debate in another thread but I figure as long as I am contributing more facts than the author of that paticular thread I mine as well have my own.

Green energy wastes more energy than it produces.

Green energy creates more pollution.

Green energy enslaves a nation to a few people in power.

Green energy will make the rich, richer, the middle class poorer, and the poor a permanent sub-class.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Abuse of words has been the great instrument of sophistry and chicanery, of party, faction, and division of society. John Adams

I had such a clever thread thought out where are started off by flaming who I consider liberal greens but after posting in another thread I decided to change my intro. I am just such a nice guy but actually its my intelligence that made the difference.

This is such a serious subject it needs a serious discussion.

This is more than Bush vs Obama, Republican vs Democrat, Conservative vs Liberal.

This is about our future, its about being enslaved to corporations. Do not confuse capitalism with corporations. Capitalism is what has given us all that is good, everything we live and breath came from the good of capitalism. All that is bad comes from individuals, individuals that rise to the power within corporations. Individuals that are born into power and money. Individuals that rise to power in politics.

That is why we have laws and the constitution, the founders new how easily a little power corrupts the individual.

Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak

There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.


Abuse of words has been the great instrument of sophistry and chicanery, of party, faction, and division of society.

Because power corrupts, society's demands for moral authority and character increase as the importance of the position increases.

Quotes from John Adams

Its amazing to see the intelligence of our founders. These were men of great education that spent thier lives studying all that was written by many great men throughout the centuries.

The times have changed but not the nature of men. That is why its so important we understand the two documents that establish or laws, The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

The Green revolution has nothing to do with cleaning the earth and making it better, its about power.

Anyone who thinks green is good does not understand, has not thought through exactly what is happening to go green. I started this debate in another thread but I figure as long as I am contributing more facts than the author of that paticular thread I mine as well have my own.

Green energy wastes more energy than it produces.

Green energy creates more pollution.

Green energy enslaves a nation to a few people in power.

Green energy will make the rich, richer, the middle class poorer, and the poor a permanent sub-class.

I've often used the term Global Governance instead of Global Warming.

 

[Old Rocks]

Well, another couple of idiots.

Energy from sources that do not put mercury and lead into the air, that do not put GHGs into the air, or create a rain that is acid enough to poison lakes simple makes sense.

Chic, if you are truly stupid enough to believe that there is a conspiracy that involves every Scientific Society, every National Academy of Science, and every major University on earth, enough said.

 

[krotchdog]

Old Rocks. how much have you thought this out. No mercury or lead, you must burn oil to make a windmill. Its a conspiracy, if you want to call the richest company in the world making money on people who believe its nice to go green.

So Old Rocks, who is the idiot, it seems you think you can make a windmill without creating pollution, tell me how, do they grow on trees, do you dig them in your backyard. Maybe spacemen deliver them. This is a serious discussion, maybe you are young and just like to piss people off maybe not, maybe you need to be told that windmills dont.

I have been concentrating my study on the fiberglass portion of the windmill, all 60,000 lbs of fiberglass that goes into each and every windmill.

Explain to me Old Rocks how fiberglass production is perfectly clean.

 

[Old Rocks]

Old Rocks. how much have you thought this out. No mercury or lead, you must burn oil to make a windmill. Its a conspiracy, if you want to call the richest company in the world making money on people who believe its nice to go green.

So Old Rocks, who is the idiot, it seems you think you can make a windmill without creating pollution, tell me how, do they grow on trees, do you dig them in your backyard. Maybe spacemen deliver them. This is a serious discussion, maybe you are young and just like to piss people off maybe not, maybe you need to be told that windmills dont.

I have been concentrating my study on the fiberglass portion of the windmill, all 60,000 lbs of fiberglass that goes into each and every windmill.

Explain to me Old Rocks how fiberglass production is perfectly clean.

Modern furnaces use electricity to melt steel. And no modern product is perfectly clean. Not wind, solar, geothermal, nuclear, or even hydro.

However, none of these methods of generating electricity is anywhere near as dirty as coal. And, when we get the batteries with enough storage capacity, we, as individuals, can supply the fuel from solar on our own property. As well as powering our own homes.

As for the rest, do some research instead of repeating brain dead talking points.

 

[krotchdog]

Old Rocks, why resort to flaming, I want to have a discussion and talk about this, if your only interested in flaming I will decline to repond to you in this thread. Try again and I will respond. Twice you have insulted me, you have taken two oppurtunities to engage me yet all you have done is called me names.

 

[Seraega]

Old Rocks. how much have you thought this out. No mercury or lead, you must burn oil to make a windmill. Its a conspiracy, if you want to call the richest company in the world making money on people who believe its nice to go green.

So Old Rocks, who is the idiot, it seems you think you can make a windmill without creating pollution, tell me how, do they grow on trees, do you dig them in your backyard. Maybe spacemen deliver them. This is a serious discussion, maybe you are young and just like to piss people off maybe not, maybe you need to be told that windmills dont.

I have been concentrating my study on the fiberglass portion of the windmill, all 60,000 lbs of fiberglass that goes into each and every windmill.

Explain to me Old Rocks how fiberglass production is perfectly clean.

Let's assume your figure is right...

Explain to me how a 1 time expense of 60,000 lbs of fiberglass is worse than a perpetual 2,860 TONNES of coal used annually to produce the same amount of power?

Lets see, average life of a windmill - 30 years Total cost: 60,000 lbs of fiberglass.

Same 30 years of producing with coal - 85,800 tonnes of coal.

 

[krotchdog]

Because you will need to use that much coal to produce the fiberglass, I am out of time, otherwise I would give you more. You also will replace the turbine blades once in the lifespan of a windmill, the weight is twice as much. Dont just take my comments and assume, if you do you post in error. comes to about 100,000 lbs, how much fuel does a fleet of diesel trucks take to move 100,000 lbs.

 

[Seraega]

Because you will need to use that much coal to produce the fiberglass, I am out of time, otherwise I would give you more.

You need 85,800 tonnes of coal to produce 30 tonnes of fiberglass? I smell something here and it stinks.

 

[krotchdog]

thats called fiberglass production, it uses three times the energy of other industry.

 

[Seraega]

I cannot find any such fact... you made the assertion so it's yours to defend. Saying it uses 3x the energy doesn't contribute any calculable fact. Fiberglass is used in everything from insulation, automobiles, and boats to roofing tiles, bows, and heat resistant fabrics. It can't be all that costly as you are attempting to make it appear.

 

[krotchdog]

Sareaga, if you looked you probabaly found out how hard it is to find these things. I deleted some things I should not of but this one is easy to refind and I will. I aint pulling your leg. You cant just look up fiberglass, I am real tired so forgive me if I get it wrong, fiberglass is a fiber polymer strand, next part is right, made in e-glass furnace, temperature must be kept at 1700 and some degrees, must be kept within a very specific range. I started my search on just fiberglass but I had to break it down to real technical terms. And we are talking over 1,000,000,000,000 lbs of the stuff. Thats a year, how fast can we use lets say boron and propene.

Enough of the screwing around and nipping at the user's ass like a stray dog, time to get real serious. I am not going tit for tat with the flameres (no pun or insult to gay folk). I forgive you all, I understand how frustrating it is for someone to come into your world and tell you something that is completely opposite of what someone has told you to think, its tough being young and I dont envy the brainwashing that has happened in the schools and throught the drive-by media.

I have been vague in my comments, posting a bit of fact, I was hoping to get more people suckered in but I aint got the time and anyhow you most likely would get tired of your asses getting chewed off so now I will provide concise facts.

I will use the Vestas V90-3.0 MW. As near as I can tell (pay paticular close to the wording I just used it indicates that I believe this to be fact but just in case it may not be, I state opinion if opinion and admit there may be a bit more to learn out there) this is the most advanced product from Vestas, Vestas being the leader in technology when it comes to wind power.

I have been focusing solely on the fiberglass componet of windmills although there are many other componets. Such as carbon fiber, titanium, advanced alloy steel, copper, plastics, etc, etc. I also cannot say for sure the exact percentage of fiberglass so I must go with an error rate of 10%, 10% error rate is accepted in all technical research and you will find 10% allowable in most product manufactored. I did not say think or maybe, this is fact. 10% error and thats plus or minus, maybe to my advantage maybe not, in this focus I will penalize myself on the negative side.

Vestas is a Danish company, fact, not opinion.

There are so many factors to consider I am overwhelmed.

First off, the "Green" industry recognizes that wind power loses money, hence the subsidies and the hiding of costs, be a bit patient and dont lose your cool I am going to post the fact to prove this.

EPRI, if those intials do not ring a bell I know much more than you. Energy, Power, and Research Institute. This is a group that does much work as a quasi government agency as well as a quasi commercial electrical corporation agency. They get funding from both groups. They do all sorts of things from studies, to engineering evaluations, to quality control standards, they do so much I wont pretend to know everything and it serves no purpose to post all they do.

I am proud to say that in my elite field I am EPRI certified in my job, I analyize data acquired at commercial nuclear power plants (thats got to hurt if you thought my posts were posted out of ignorance). The dogs bite is more damageing than his bark.

So I will site EPRI at this time. I have big problems with EPRI and must admit as an expert in my field I know they are idiots. That said, politically I cannot avoid them and being idiots they were stupid to put the following online.

In the near-future, it is likely that wind energy's primary market will be niches that recognize values in addition to cost.

Here we have a study by EPRI literally stating the public cannot look at the cost of Green energy, the Green industry must market an advantage that has nothing to do with the crippling cost of going Green. They also state niches, niches can only refer to the fact that Green energy can only be placed in very specific places and than the cost cannot be a factor, its the value.

power generation industry. Barring large policy changes, such as a carbon tax, the principal value of wind energy as an electric generator, without storage facilities, is as a fuel saver. That is, wind energy generation must be used when it is available, thereby displacing energy (and variable operating expenses) that would have otherwise been provided.

So Obama has promised change, EPRI study states policy change. Obama is pushing a carbon tax, as does this government study. Again the study states value, not cost. The study tells us this is a fuel saver/displacer. That is not a replacer or in addition to. A carbon tax will make competitive energy to expensive allowing the "value" of wind attractive, not cost effective.

Statistically, a windfarm can displace a fraction of the capital cost of some new conventional plant.

Technically in political speak that is "Capicity credit issue. So windfarms only displace a fraction of the cost of other cheaper forms of energy. The study also states specifically "some", it does not compete with all convential sources of energy. So at best according to the people the "Greenies" trust, green energy is at best displacing a fraction of costs. No mention of profit, its lose, lose, lose.

Henry Kelley at the Office of Technology Assessment suggests that virtually any wind installation merits a capacity credit

So Henry Kelley wont say this energy makes a profit or that it merits a capity credit, he only suggests it merits a credit.

U.S. studies have shown that a 5 percent penetration level has virtually n o
effect on system operations, while estimates of the impact of larger numbers appear to be largely speculative. Othe r
work by Grubb and Halberg [2,3] in Europe confirmed that no absolute physical limit exists to the fraction of win d
penetration on a large power system. Rather, with increasing penetration, the fuel and capacity savings begin t o
decrease, so that the system limits are economic rather than physical. Regardless, as Grubb points out, the penetration
of wind energy in the U.S. must be much larger before its value begins to degrade in the electric system.

That last quote hurts, the value of wind energy degrade the larger the wind farm is.

I will take a break, first facts presented are the politics and propaganda. I will wait and see what next, maybe 60 windmills in a farm weighing in at over 150 tons each times 60 is 9000 metric tons given a metric ton equals 1,102 U.S. tons times that there 60 is 66,120 tons converted into lbs is 132,240,000 lbs of fiberglass.

So who did the homework and the math? 60 windmills, a tiny farm. See why I think its the bankers who will get rich.

So lets address the governments own admissions in the EPRI study first than the amount of carbon a 132,240,000 lbs of fiberglass will produce.

I left much out that is real damaging to wind powers cost. I will come back to it, maybe.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/ba/pba/pdfs/techchar.pdf

 

[editec]

Greening of America COULD BE just another tool to make us more dependent on corporations I quite agree.

Doesn't necessarily have to be that way, but your point has some merit.

 

[krotchdog]

Greening of America COULD BE just another tool to make us more dependent on corporations I quite agree.

Doesn't necessarily have to be that way, but your point has some merit.

Actually, if you read the quotes above, look at the link, you will see the last points made were not made by me. They are made by the GREEN INDUSTRY AND THE GOVERNMENT OF AL GORE.

This study was made during the tme AL GORE was in office. ITS AL GORES REPORT. In it they explain you must change public perception. Why do you think corporations advertise Global warming to the tune of billions, because they are good citizens. Green energy does not even impact the primary energy market, green energy growth cannot even make a dent in the percentage of growth each year the energy needs of the world grows.

Its a niche market, you cannot even look at cost, you must see it as value, further the bigger the project than the value goes down, thats because value is percieved, if the project is too big its easy to see that there in no value. Read the report, read it again, take a look at what I point out and let me know how you can disagree with the people who are the ones who are promoting green energy.

Most polluted cities in China blacklisted
By Qin Jize (China Daily)
Updated: 2004-07-15 00:08


The names of the most polluted cities in the country were released Tuesday.

China's environmental watchdog released the list for the first time as part of efforts to improve air quality across the country.

North China's Shanxi Province, well-known for its coal industry, stood out with three cities included on the black list: Linfen, Yangquan and Datong.

The others are Shizuishan in Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region, Sanmenxia in Henan Province, Jinchang in Gansu Province, Shijiazhuang in Hebei Province, Xianyang in Shaanxi Province, Zhuzhou in Hunan Province and Luoyang in Henan Province

Solar Energy Firms Leave Waste Behind in China
By Ariana Eunjung Cha
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, March 9, 2008; Page A01
"It's poison air. Sometimes it gets so bad you can't sit outside. You have to close all the doors and windows," says Qiao Shi Peng, 28, shown in front of a dumping site in his village, who worries about his 1-year-old son's health. (Zhang Quanfeng - Photo By Zhang Quanfeng)
At left, cornfields in China's Henan Province died after a green energy firm dumped industrial waste inside a nearby village. The liquid waste evaporated and left white powder. Tests of the soil where the dumping occurred showed high concentrations of chlorine and hydrochloric acid, which do not exist naturally. (Zhang Quanfeng - Photo By Zhang Quanfeng)
(Photos By Zhang Quanfeng)
GAOLONG, China -- The first time Li Gengxuan saw the dump trucks from the nearby factory pull into his village, he couldn't believe what happened. Stopping between the cornfields and the primary school playground, the workers dumped buckets of bubbling white liquid onto the ground. Then they turned around and drove right back through the gates of their compound without a word. This ritual has been going on almost every day for nine months, Li and other villagers said.
In China, a country buckling with the breakneck pace of its industrial growth, such stories of environmental pollution are not uncommon. But the Luoyang Zhonggui High-Technology Co., here in the central plains of Henan Province near the Yellow River, stands out for one reason: It's a green energy company, producing polysilicon destined for solar energy panels sold around the world. But the byproduct of polysilicon production -- silicon tetrachloride -- is a highly toxic substance that poses environmental hazards. "The land where you dump or bury it will be infertile. No grass or trees will grow in the place. . . . It is like dynamite -- it is poisonous, it is polluting. Human beings can never touch it," said Ren Bingyan, a professor at the School of Material Sciences at Hebei Industrial University. The situation in Li's village points to the environmental trade-offs the world is making as it races to head off a dwindling supply of fossil fuels.
Forests are being cleared to grow biofuels like palm oil, but scientists argue that the disappearance of such huge swaths of forests is contributing to climate change. Hydropower dams are being constructed to replace coal-fired power plants, but they are submerging whole ecosystems under water. Likewise in China, the push to get into the solar energy market is having unexpected consequences. With the prices of oil and coal soaring, policymakers around the world are looking at massive solar farms to heat water and generate electricity. For the past four years, however, the world has been suffering from a shortage of polysilicon -- the key component of sunlight-capturing wafers -- driving up prices of solar energy technology and creating a barrier to its adoption.
With the price of polysilicon soaring from $20 per kilogram to $300 per kilogram in the past five years, Chinese companies are eager to fill the gap.
In China, polysilicon plants are the new dot-coms. Flush with venture capital and with generous grants and low-interest loans from a central government touting its efforts to seek clean energy alternatives, more than 20 Chinese companies are starting polysilicon manufacturing plants. The combined capacity of these new factories is estimated at 80,000 to 100,000 tons -- more than double the 40,000 tons produced in the entire world today. But Chinese companies' methods for dealing with waste haven't been perfected.
Because of the environmental hazard, polysilicon companies in the developed world recycle the compound, putting it back into the production process. But the high investment costs and time, not to mention the enormous energy consumption required for heating the substance to more than 1800 degrees Fahrenheit for the recycling, have discouraged many factories in China from doing the same. Like Luoyang Zhonggui, other solar plants in China have not installed technology to prevent pollutants from getting into the environment or have not brought those systems fully online, industry sources say.
"The recycling technology is of course being thought about, but currently it's still not mature," said Shi Jun, a former photovoltaic technology researcher at the Chinese Academy of Sciences. Shi, chief executive of Pro-EnerTech, a start-up polysilicon research firm in Shanghai, said that there's such a severe shortage of polysilicon that the government is willing to overlook this issue for now.
"If this happened in the United States, you'd probably be arrested," he said.
An independent, nationally accredited laboratory analyzed a sample of dirt from the dump site near the Luoyang Zhonggui plant at the request of The Washington Post. The tests show high concentrations of chlorine and hydrochloric acid, which can result from the breakdown of silicon tetrachloride and do not exist naturally in soil. "Crops cannot grow on this, and it is not suitable for people to live nearby," said Li Xiaoping, deputy director of the Shanghai Academy of Environmental Sciences.
Wang Hailong, secretary of the board of directors for Luoyang Zhonggui, said it is "impossible" to think that the company would dump large amounts of waste into a residential area. "Some of the villagers did not tell the truth," he said.
However, Wang said the company does release a "minimal amount of waste" in compliance with all environmental regulations. "We release it in a certain place in a certain way. Before it is released, it has gone through strict treatment procedures."
Yi Xusheng, the head of monitoring for the Henan Province Environmental Protection Agency, said the factory had passed a review before it opened, but that "it's possible that there are some pollutants in the production process" that inspectors were not aware of. Yi said the agency would investigate.
In 2005, when residents of Li's village, Shiniu, heard that a new solar energy company would be building a factory nearby, they celebrated.
The impoverished farming community of roughly 2,300, near the eastern end of the Silk Road, had been left behind during China's recent boom. In a country where the average wage in some areas has climbed to $200 a month, many of the village's residents make just $200 a year. They had high hopes their new neighbor would jump-start the local economy and help transform the area into an industrial hub.
The Luoyang Zhonggui factory grew out of an effort by a national research institute to improve on a 50-year-old polysilicon refining technology pioneered by Germany's Siemens. Concerned about intellectual property issues, Siemens has held off on selling its technology to the Chinese. So the Chinese have tried to create their own.
Last year, the Luoyang Zhonggui factory was estimated to have produced less than 300 tons of polysilicon, but it aims to increase that tenfold this year -- making it China's largest operating plant. It is a key supplier to Suntech Power Holdings, a solar panel company whose founder Shi Zhengrong recently topped the list of the richest people in China.
Made from the Earth's most abundant substance -- sand -- polysilicon is tricky to manufacture. It requires huge amounts of energy, and even a small misstep in the production can introduce impurities and ruin an entire batch. The other main challenge is dealing with the waste. For each ton of polysilicon produced, the process generates at least four tons of silicon tetrachloride liquid waste.
When exposed to humid air, silicon tetrachloride transforms into acids and poisonous hydrogen chloride gas, which can make people who breathe the air dizzy and can make their chests contract.
While it typically takes companies two years to get a polysilicon factory up and running properly, many Chinese companies are trying to do it in half that time or less, said Richard Winegarner, president of Sage Concepts, a California-based consulting firm.
As a result, Ren of Hebei Industrial University said, some Chinese plants are stockpiling the hazardous substances in the hopes that they can figure out a way to dispose of it later: "I know these factories began to store silicon tetrachloride in drums two years ago."
Pro-EnerTech's Shi says other companies -- including Luoyang Zhonggui -- are just dumping wherever they can.
"Theoretically, companies should collect it all, process it to get rid of the poisonous stuff, then release it or recycle. Zhonggui currently doesn't have the technology. Now they are just releasing it directly into the air," said Shi, who recently visited the factory.
Shi estimates that Chinese companies are saving millions of dollars by not installing pollution recovery.
He said that if environmental protection technology is used, the cost to produce one ton is approximately $84,500. But Chinese companies are making it at $21,000 to $56,000a ton.
In sharp contrast to the gleaming white buildings in Zhonggui's new gated complex in Gaolong, the situation in the villages surrounding it is bleak.
About nine months ago, residents of Li's village, which begins about 50 yards from the plant, noticed that their crops were wilting under a dusting of white powder. Sometimes, there was a hazy cloud up to three feet high near the dumping site; one person tending crops there fainted, several villagers said. Small rocks began to accumulate in kettles used for boiling faucet water.
Each night, villagers said, the factory's chimneys released a loud whoosh of acrid air that stung their eyes and made it hard to breath. "It's poison air. Sometimes it gets so bad you can't sit outside. You have to close all the doors and windows," said Qiao Shi Peng, 28, a truck driver who said he worries about his 1-year-old son's health.
The villagers said most obvious evidence of the pollution is the dumping, up to 10 times a day, of the liquid waste into what was formerly a grassy field. Eventually, the whole area turned white, like snow.
The worst part, said Li, 53, who lives with his son and granddaughter in the village, is that "they go outside the gates of their own compound to dump waste."
"We didn't know how bad it was until the August harvest, until things started dying," he said.
Early this year, one of the villagers put some of the contaminated soil in a plastic bag and went to the local environmental bureau. They never got back to him.
Zhang Zhenguo, 45, a farmer and small businessman, said he has a theory as to why: "They didn't test it because the government supports the plant."
Researchers Wu Meng and Crissie Ding contributed to this report.

Solar Energy Firms Leave Waste Behind in China - washingtonpost.com

 

[PoliticalChic]

Well, another couple of idiots.

Energy from sources that do not put mercury and lead into the air, that do not put GHGs into the air, or create a rain that is acid enough to poison lakes simple makes sense.

Chic, if you are truly stupid enough to believe that there is a conspiracy that involves every Scientific Society, every National Academy of Science, and every major University on earth, enough said.

Wow, ConcreteCranium: I am sooooo impressed! I really appreciate your keeping us posted. Saving the planet, too! So much so, that I’m getting you an early birthday present, and I know you always wanted one: a clock with Al gore on the face, and his arms pointing to the time. Made just for you: it’s an alarmist clock.

 

[editec]

Well, another couple of idiots.

Energy from sources that do not put mercury and lead into the air, that do not put GHGs into the air, or create a rain that is acid enough to poison lakes simple makes sense.

Chic, if you are truly stupid enough to believe that there is a conspiracy that involves every Scientific Society, every National Academy of Science, and every major University on earth, enough said.

Wow, ConcreteCranium: I am sooooo impressed! I really appreciate your keeping us posted. Saving the planet, too! So much so, that I’m getting you an early birthday present, and I now you always wanted one: a clock with Al gore on the face, and his arms pointing to the time. Made just for you: it’s an alarmist clock.

Okay, now that's funny.

I want one of those neo-conservative radio clocks that are permanently dialed into Rush Limbough EIB network.

They can't tell you what the time, or even what the century is; they don't have alarms, but they have an fully automatic remain comotose button, for the the very unlikely chance that the owner starts to become conscious of his world.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Well, another couple of idiots.

Energy from sources that do not put mercury and lead into the air, that do not put GHGs into the air, or create a rain that is acid enough to poison lakes simple makes sense.

Chic, if you are truly stupid enough to believe that there is a conspiracy that involves every Scientific Society, every National Academy of Science, and every major University on earth, enough said.

Wow, ConcreteCranium: I am sooooo impressed! I really appreciate your keeping us posted. Saving the planet, too! So much so, that I’m getting you an early birthday present, and I now you always wanted one: a clock with Al gore on the face, and his arms pointing to the time. Made just for you: it’s an alarmist clock.

Okay, now that's funny.

I want one of those neo-conservative radio clocks that are permanently dialed into Rush Limbough EIB network.

They can't tell you what the time, or even what the century is; they don't have alarms, but they have an fully automatic remain comotose button, for the the very unlikely chance that the owner starts to become conscious of his world.

Nice try, but tortuous at best.

I know you can't bear to listen to the great Mahah-Rushie, but he is clever and perceptive. You must give it a few months, and you will be hooked.

Yesterday he spent the first monologue of his show talking about the Somali pirates, and he called referenced their functions of pressuring rich shipping companies for "contributions."

He called them "Maritime Organizers."

Now that's funny.

 

[krotchdog]

Editec, I am a ditto head 24/7, I will go point to point with you on any subject anytime. I know for a fact that I will be provide more facts. Just look at my posts here. You are not informed, you must listen to Rush and Levin or you simply handicap your ability to have a debate or defend your ideals.

Look at my thread, where is your standing on it. Are you in agreement or not. The Greening of the USA is created more carbon than we have ever creating.

Boron is one of the key elements used in the production of fiberglass, what is the worlds supply, how long will it last, where is it mind, how much does it cost per ton, what is the refining process. If you have not even heard of Boron, which you have not, than you do not know this subject as I do.

So make fun of us Ditto heads all you want but take a look at who has posted the facts and who has posted the hype. Anyone can cut/paste the Corporate/Government talking points but it takes a Rush fan to find out the truth. It takes a person that knows what John Adams wrote about how power corrupts and why the Declaration of Independence is our most important document and how that is relevant to your ideas of Green energy.