No Peace With Palestinians

[Phoenall]

Israel has never acquired another's sovereign territory by force. Israel acquired territory through Treaty and international legal agreements. The only sovereigns in the territory between 1923 and 1988 were Israel, Jordan and Egypt. Neither Jordan nor Egypt held sovereignty over the territory in question. They, in fact, used force to acquire (temporarily) territory which was, by all international law, outside their borders. They both eventually ceded that territory and signed peace agreements with Israel.

In terms of law, there is absolutely NO case to be made that "Palestine" (as distinct from Israel) existed at any time prior to 1988 and thus that Israel acquired another's sovereign territory by force and there is every reason to argue that, until 1993, Israel held sovereignty over all of the territory.

The best argument you can possibly make is that Israel did not apply sovereignty over all of the territory which was hers by right of sovereignty, thus creating terra nullius (territory belonging to no one). Its a dicey argument, imo, and one which has much more serious consequences for your side than for mine. (You are essentially arguing that if a sovereign doesn't exercise control over territory, the sovereign loses sovereignty over it. Bye-bye Area C for the Palestinians,and so much for any argument that settlements are illegal).

You are off your rocker to believe that Egypt and Jordan ceded by treaty Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, to Israel. I do believe I've heard it all. Blow me down!

I said they ceded the territory. I did not say they ceded it to Israel. Pay attention. Words matter.

Although, to be fair, a better way of putting it would be that they renounced all claims to the territory.

Correct; Jordan and Egypt renounced their claims in favor of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO).

LINKS ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I thought you said it was not permissible to gain territory by force? So Jordan and Egypt could not have been sovereign. They had absolutely no claim to the territory.

That is true. Gaza and the West Bank have been occupied Palestinian territory since 1948.

 

[Phoenall]

I thought you said it was not permissible to gain territory by force? So Jordan and Egypt could not have been sovereign. They had absolutely no claim to the territory.

That is true. Gaza and the West Bank have been occupied Palestinian territory since 1948.

Nope as palestine the nation did not exist until 1988, and then only as a concept

 

[Shusha]

I thought you said it was not permissible to gain territory by force? So Jordan and Egypt could not have been sovereign. They had absolutely no claim to the territory.

That is true. Gaza and the West Bank have been occupied Palestinian territory since 1948.

I think you mean that Gaza, the West Bank and all of Israel has been "occupied Palestinian territory" since 1948, don't you?

 

[RoccoR]

Shusha, et al,

I think you are correct.

I thought you said it was not permissible to gain territory by force? So Jordan and Egypt could not have been sovereign. They had absolutely no claim to the territory.

That is true. Gaza and the West Bank have been occupied Palestinian territory since 1948.

I think you mean that Gaza, the West Bank and all of Israel has been "occupied Palestinian territory" since 1948, don't you?

(COMMENT)

Although, it is very hard to get an answer.

Some Arab Palestinians do not concur with the positions as stated by NAD.

So when you talk to Arab Palestinians, you have to be careful of who's playbook you are using.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Eloy]

Correct; Jordan and Egypt renounced their claims in favor of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO).

Even if this is true (and its not), back up a bit.

What are you trying to argue for, here, in terms of sovereignty? Are you are trying to argue that Jordan and Egypt held sovereignty over the territory? But Jordan and Egypt gained territory outside their own international boundaries by military force. I thought you said it was not permissible to gain territory by force? So Jordan and Egypt could not have been sovereign. They had absolutely no claim to the territory.

Jordan and Egypt are two of the Arab countries with whom the Israelis had gone to war (Syria) being the third). So, they had as much sovereignty over Gaza and the West Bank as much as Israel is now claiming, I suppose. That they ceded the territories to the PLO is, in part, a recognition that, in their estimation, their rights to sovereignty of this part of Palestine should be transferred to the Palestine Liberation Organization which was to represent and look after the interests of the Arab Palestinians. For certain, Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, had not been part of Israel when the Jewish state joined the United Nations and the Arab population had not relinquished their sovereignty over the territories occupied by Israel during the 1967 war.

The right of Israel to change its borders against the will of the Palestinians was recognized at the time as illegal both on the grounds that borders cannot be changed by war and the indigenous Arab population from the time of the British Mandate have a right to self determination in their homeland, the sovereignty of the people, as it were, rather than a state as such. It was never the belief or intention of the international community to surrender all of the British Mandate Palestine for the exclusive use of Zionists. By pretending otherwise, the Zionists are scoffing at the human and civil rights of the Palestinian people. With UN Security Council Resolution 242, the international community of nations presented principles of a future peace but this has not been honored by the Israelis.

 

[Eloy]

Shusha, et al,

I think you are correct. ...

Of course you do, Rocco. We have known this from Day 1.

 

[montelatici]

Shusha, et al,

I think you are correct.

I thought you said it was not permissible to gain territory by force? So Jordan and Egypt could not have been sovereign. They had absolutely no claim to the territory.

That is true. Gaza and the West Bank have been occupied Palestinian territory since 1948.

I think you mean that Gaza, the West Bank and all of Israel has been "occupied Palestinian territory" since 1948, don't you?

(COMMENT)

Although, it is very hard to get an answer.

Some Arab Palestinians do not concur with the positions as stated by NAD.

So when you talk to Arab Palestinians, you have to be careful of who's playbook you are using.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, you are the king of the bullshitters. You cannot accept the fact that Europeans gained territory by force. Which is what the Zionists did. Your playbook is the Harlem Globetrotters playbook.

 

[Hossfly]

I thought you said it was not permissible to gain territory by force? So Jordan and Egypt could not have been sovereign. They had absolutely no claim to the territory.

That is true. Gaza and the West Bank have been occupied Palestinian territory since 1948.

.

I was just reading a good article by an eminent scholar of the Middle East

Is There a Palestinian People? Can it be Defeated?

 

[Hossfly]

Shusha, et al,

I think you are correct. ...

Of course you do, Rocco. We have known this from Day 1.

Wow, these pro Palis stooges who crawled out of the woodwork like a bunch of roaches can certainly give people a laugh. For all we know they are being paid for this gig. Keep on posting RoccoR because I don't think I am wrong in saying that most readers can see how intelligent and well prepared you are. Of course the pro Pali roaches don't like it and squeak like the insects they are when you post.

Now one of the roaches just posted this:

"Of course you do, Rocco. We have known this from Day 1"

This particular roach has been on this board a short time so how in the world can he make a statement like that unless he is an old poster with a new screen name? Hmm, wonder what his old screen name was.

 

[Shusha]

The right of Israel to change its borders against the will of the Palestinians was recognized at the time as illegal both on the grounds that borders cannot be changed by war ...

If, as you say, borders can not be changed by war then Jordan and Egypt could not have attained sovereignty over any part of the Mandate for Palestine outside their own international borders. The military force of Jordan and Egypt can not have created or changed any borders.

We have eliminated Jordan and Egypt as possible sovereigns of the territory at any time. That leaves only two choices. Either it was ALL the territory was Israel or it was terra nullius.

In neither case did Israel "change her borders". Israel either re-captured territory which she had sovereignty over. Or Israel exerted control over territory which belonged to no one (and still belongs to no one). There simply are no other choices.

 

[fanger]

What about Golan heights?
Golan Heights - Wikipedia

 

[Phoenall]

Correct; Jordan and Egypt renounced their claims in favor of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO).

Even if this is true (and its not), back up a bit.

What are you trying to argue for, here, in terms of sovereignty? Are you are trying to argue that Jordan and Egypt held sovereignty over the territory? But Jordan and Egypt gained territory outside their own international boundaries by military force. I thought you said it was not permissible to gain territory by force? So Jordan and Egypt could not have been sovereign. They had absolutely no claim to the territory.

Jordan and Egypt are two of the Arab countries with whom the Israelis had gone to war (Syria) being the third). So, they had as much sovereignty over Gaza and the West Bank as much as Israel is now claiming, I suppose. That they ceded the territories to the PLO is, in part, a recognition that, in their estimation, their rights to sovereignty of this part of Palestine should be transferred to the Palestine Liberation Organization which was to represent and look after the interests of the Arab Palestinians. For certain, Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, had not been part of Israel when the Jewish state joined the United Nations and the Arab population had not relinquished their sovereignty over the territories occupied by Israel during the 1967 war.

The right of Israel to change its borders against the will of the Palestinians was recognized at the time as illegal both on the grounds that borders cannot be changed by war and the indigenous Arab population from the time of the British Mandate have a right to self determination in their homeland, the sovereignty of the people, as it were, rather than a state as such. It was never the belief or intention of the international community to surrender all of the British Mandate Palestine for the exclusive use of Zionists. By pretending otherwise, the Zionists are scoffing at the human and civil rights of the Palestinian people. With UN Security Council Resolution 242, the international community of nations presented principles of a future peace but this has not been honored by the Israelis.

Get it right Israel did not go to war, Israel defended against acts of war.
They had no rights to sovereignty over any of the land granted under the mandate as the Jewish national home
Are you now saying that the world recognised their ownership of the lands and that palestine is an illegal state.
Actually they were if you read 181 again as the arab's denied its existence.
How can 242 apply when palestine did not exist for 20 years after it was accepted, and it is not mentioned once in 242 ?

 

[Phoenall]

Shusha, et al,

I think you are correct.

I thought you said it was not permissible to gain territory by force? So Jordan and Egypt could not have been sovereign. They had absolutely no claim to the territory.

That is true. Gaza and the West Bank have been occupied Palestinian territory since 1948.

I think you mean that Gaza, the West Bank and all of Israel has been "occupied Palestinian territory" since 1948, don't you?

(COMMENT)

Although, it is very hard to get an answer.

Some Arab Palestinians do not concur with the positions as stated by NAD.

So when you talk to Arab Palestinians, you have to be careful of who's playbook you are using.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, you are the king of the bullshitters. You cannot accept the fact that Europeans gained territory by force. Which is what the Zionists did. Your playbook is the Harlem Globetrotters playbook.

And who has it as their charter to take all the world as theirs by force if needed ?

 

[Challenger]

Israel has never acquired another's sovereign territory by force.

Golan Heights, East Jerusalem, Southern Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza Strip...

 

[Challenger]

Keep on posting RoccoR because I don't think I am wrong in saying that most readers can see how intelligent and well prepared you are.

I agree, RoccoR although he uses 10 words when 5 would suffice, talks down to everyone and posts long, rambling, posts full of irrelevant information that few can be even bothered to read, he is indeed very well prepared and highly professional, almost as if this was his full time job.....hmmm.

 

[Phoenall]

Israel has never acquired another's sovereign territory by force.

Golan Heights, East Jerusalem, Southern Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza Strip...

Denying the Jews their rights to international laws again, very soon you will be organising another crystal nacht

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Israel has never acquired another's sovereign territory by force.

Golan Heights, East Jerusalem, Southern Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza Strip...

Israel withdrew from both Southern Lebanon and Gaza, with disastrous results. Maybe if both those withdrawals had produced good results, Israel would be more willing to make compromises on a strategic plateau in a volatile country, as well as in its heartland.

 

[Eloy]

The right of Israel to change its borders against the will of the Palestinians was recognized at the time as illegal both on the grounds that borders cannot be changed by war ...

If, as you say, borders can not be changed by war then Jordan and Egypt could not have attained sovereignty over any part of the Mandate for Palestine outside their own international borders. The military force of Jordan and Egypt can not have created or changed any borders.

We have eliminated Jordan and Egypt as possible sovereigns of the territory at any time. That leaves only two choices. Either it was ALL the territory was Israel or it was terra nullius.

In neither case did Israel "change her borders". Israel either re-captured territory which she had sovereignty over. Or Israel exerted control over territory which belonged to no one (and still belongs to no one). There simply are no other choices.

No, there is a third and proper choice, one that the entire world accepts, including Israel's backer, the USA, and this is to recognize the sovereignty of the indigenous Palestinian people over their homeland.
It is shameful for the Israelis to occupy and blockade the Palestinian Territories in such a brutal way and to allow Jewish settlers to live on the best agricultural and historical land with utter disregard of the right of self-determination of the sovereign Palestinian people. Zionist greed, cruelty, and criminality over the past half century is a record of unspeakable odium.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The right of Israel to change its borders against the will of the Palestinians was recognized at the time as illegal both on the grounds that borders cannot be changed by war ...

If, as you say, borders can not be changed by war then Jordan and Egypt could not have attained sovereignty over any part of the Mandate for Palestine outside their own international borders. The military force of Jordan and Egypt can not have created or changed any borders.

We have eliminated Jordan and Egypt as possible sovereigns of the territory at any time. That leaves only two choices. Either it was ALL the territory was Israel or it was terra nullius.

In neither case did Israel "change her borders". Israel either re-captured territory which she had sovereignty over. Or Israel exerted control over territory which belonged to no one (and still belongs to no one). There simply are no other choices.

No, there is a third and proper choice, one that the entire world accepts, including Israel's backer, the USA, and this is to recognize the sovereignty of the indigenous Palestinian people over their homeland.
It is shameful for the Israelis to occupy and blockade the Palestinian Territories in such a brutal way and to allow Jewish settlers to live on the best agricultural and historical land with utter disregard of the right of self-determination of the sovereign Palestinian people. Zionist greed, cruelty, and criminality over the past half century is a record of unspeakable odium.

"A record of unspeakable odium"? Don'y you think you're exaggerating, Eloy?