Zone1 No one is saved

What for the ones who died before the tribulation period?
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Rev 20:11 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
 
The Bride of Christ is not appointed to God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
...and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him".

Romans 5:9: "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him".

Romans 8:1: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus."


The words used to describe it in The Bible "ek, raptura and harpazo. They mean to be snatched out of, or caught up, carried away. If it doesn't happen, then the verses describing it make no sense whatsoever.


It explains the mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 In this scripture, Paul refers to this event as a "mystery," saying that believers will not all "sleep" (die), but all will be "changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

It will take 11/100's of a second.
I Absolutely Disagree!:

Signs of the End of the Age
Mat 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Mat 24:4 Jesus answered them, “Be careful that no one leads you astray.
Mat 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will lead many astray.
Mat 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you aren’t troubled, for all this must happen, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines, plagues, and earthquakes in various places.
Mat 24:8 But all these things are the beginning of birth pains.
Mat 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to oppression, and will kill you. You will be hated by all of the nations for my name’s sake.
Mat 24:10 Then many will stumble, and will deliver up one another, and will hate one another.
Mat 24:11 Many false prophets will arise, and will lead many astray.
Mat 24:12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.
Mat 24:14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Abomination of Desolation

Mat 24:15 “When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take out the things that are in his house.
Mat 24:18 Let him who is in the field not return back to get his clothes.
Mat 24:19 But woe to those who are with child and to nursing mothers in those days!
Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on a Sabbath,
Mat 24:21 for then there will be great oppression, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.
Mat 24:22 Unless those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But for the sake of the chosen ones, those days will be shortened.
Mat 24:23 “Then if any man tells you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There,’ don’t believe it.
Mat 24:24 For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones.
Mat 24:25 “Behold, I have told you beforehand.
Mat 24:26 If therefore they tell you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness,’ don’t go out; ‘Behold, he is in the inner rooms,’ don’t believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, that is where the vultures gather together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
Mat 24:29 But immediately after the oppression of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;
Mat 24:30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed for the Word of God, and for the testimony of the Lamb which they had.
Rev 6:10 They cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, Master, the holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
Rev 6:11 A long white robe was given to each of them. They were told that they should rest yet for a while, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who would also be killed even as they were, should complete their course.
Rev 13:6 He opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his dwelling, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 It was given to him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. Authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation was given to him.
Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.
Rev 13:14 He deceives my own people who dwell on the earth because of the signs he was granted to do in front of the beast; saying to those who dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who had the sword wound and lived.
Rev 13:15 It was given to him to give breath to it, to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause as many as wouldn’t worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Rev 13:16 He causes all, the small and the great, the rich and the poor, and the free and the slave, to be given marks on their right hands, or on their foreheads;
Rev 13:17 and that no one would be able to buy or to sell, unless he has that mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is six hundred sixty-six.

Rev 14:9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
Rev 20:4 I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.
 
That is end time prophesy. Some being fulfilled now, some will be during the tribulation. For instance, earthquakes in diverse places. Earthquakes have caused volcanoes to wake up all over the globe. We are in the birth pangs timeline.
If those in Christ are not appointed to God's wrath, then where are they when God's wrath is meted out? What is the punishment for following Christ?

What does this event describe?

1Thessalonians 16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever
^
There are only 3 options. Before the tribulation, during the trib, after the trib. 2 of those options appoint us to God's wrath. 1 does not.
God has no intention of punishing the Bride of Christ. Because there is no condemnation for those in Christ.

What you posted happens after Christ's Bride is removed from the situation. For those who come to Christ after the rapture occurs, they are under the alter, having been beheaded for turning to Christ after the rapture.

The "chosen" Christ returns to earth to salvage are the Jews. 1/3 of them will be killed, and then 1/3 of what is left will be killed during the tribulation period.
 
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Rev 20:11 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

:beer:


I was trying to figure out what the poster I responded to believed.
 
That is end time prophesy. Some being fulfilled now, some will be during the tribulation. For instance, earthquakes in diverse places. Earthquakes have caused volcanoes to wake up all over the globe. We are in the birth pangs timeline.
If those in Christ are not appointed to God's wrath, then where are they when God's wrath is meted out? What is the punishment for following Christ?

What does this event describe?

1Thessalonians 16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever
^
There are only 3 options. Before the tribulation, during the trib, after the trib. 2 of those options appoint us to God's wrath. 1 does not.
God has no intention of punishing the Bride of Christ. Because there is no condemnation for those in Christ.

What you posted happens after Christ's Bride is removed from the situation. For those who come to Christ after the rapture occurs, they are under the alter, having been beheaded for turning to Christ after the rapture.

The "chosen" Christ returns to earth to salvage are the Jews. 1/3 of them will be killed, and then 1/3 of what is left will be killed during the tribulation period.
It's Hard, Unpleasant, & at times Shocking, for One who Truly proclaims "LORD!", to fully Accept, 100%, The Teachings of The Messiah, His Prophets, The Histories, & The Torah, Irish Ram.
If even 1% of the Belief, of the "LORD!" proclaimer is against what The Scriptures state,... Then that "Belief", is "Tainted"/"Unpure"/"Unclean", and it will not exist within The Messiah's Kingdom.
The "Anger" of YAHWEH, will fall upon His People The Children of Yisrael, as it is Written many times in The Scriptures, so to Wake them Up/Cause them to Repent. But, only a "Remnant" will Truly Repent.

Also, those that Repent, & Fully Accept "The Way" of The Messiah, will be Willing to Die for their Faith.

"1Thessalonians 16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever"

Irish Ram, Paul did indeed Write The Truth about The Messiah's Second coming, BUT,....... Paul didn't write anything about them returning back to Heaven with the "Saints/ Chosen Ones". That is
"One Piece of a large Puzzle" only. Sure, if One decides to stop their Seeking Truthful Knowledge, on that Scripture only,..... Then all kinds of Beliefs rise up.
Those who are Resurrected in to their "Spiritual Bodies', will Absolutely meet the Messiah "in the air", BUT,.... The Messiah, The "Saints", & The Angels immediately come down to Earth,..... To Yisrael, where they Jointly "Kick a boatload of "Little Horn"/"Assyrian"/ "Beast" Butt".
And, then,... Establish The Kingdom of Heaven, here on Earth.

I have to ask,..... How is it that You uphold what Paul wrote, so as to explain a "Rapture up to Heaven", supposedly designed so that those who proclaim to believe, will escape the"Wrath/ Anger/ Horror" of the Last Days,.... When The Messiah in Math. 24:, nor John in the Book of Rev. absolutely state the opposite?
 



images (52).webp

 
Last edited:
to fully Accept, 100%, The Teachings of The Messiah, His Prophets, The Histories, & The Torah, Irish Ram.
No way on this earth would I subject myself to the 600+ laws God gave to the Jews. Not when God Himself gave us a better covenant. The old covenant led to self and death. The new covenant leads to Jesus and life.
Irish Ram, Paul did indeed Write The Truth about The Messiah's Second coming
The rapture is not the second coming of Jesus. He never touches earth during the rapture, and the harpazo takes place in less than one second. The Bride of Christ is removed.
Paul said, "absent from the body is present with the Lord". And when the rapture takes place Paul's grave will open, and he will retrieve his then uncorruptible body. It is the exact same thing that took place when Christ was on the cross. The earthquake removed the stones from their tombs, and those retrieved from Abraham's bosom were reunited with their now glorified bodies.
Those still alive will be "ek" caught up with the others and disappear. If Jesus is on his way down, why gather up the alive in the air? < It is time for their rewards. When Christ does come the second time, it will be to judge.

I have to ask,..... How is it that You uphold what Paul wrote, so as to explain a "Rapture up to Heaven", supposedly designed so that those who proclaim to believe, will escape the"Wrath/ Anger/ Horror" of the Last Days,.... When The Messiah in Math. 24:, nor John in the Book of Rev. absolutely state the opposite
Mathew was referring to the end times. So is the Book of Revelation. Both describing what will take place prior to Christ's return to the Mount of Olives. Christ's bride, those in Abraham's bosom, the apostles, and saints come with Him at that time.

Why would God punish the Bride of Christ when the Bride has already been judged and paid for? Is it "just", as in justice, to condemn 2 for the acts of 1?
In the Bible, propitiation means the act of appeasing or satisfying God's wrath against sin through a sacrificial substitute.
Those covered in the blood of Jesus are white as snow. Nothing to punish us for. Our debt was paid. The Bible says so:

1Thes. 5:9 For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 5:9 Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him
!
 
Last edited:
Irish Ram,...... The "613 Laws", are severely corrupted by "Talmudic Judaism"! There is Physically No Way, for every Man, Woman, & Child to keep them, despite what the "Rabbinic Talmudists" state. Furthermore,.... 77 of these so called "Laws" are for the Levites only, meaning that the common Isrealite can not participate in any action involved in them.
Secondly,..... These so called "Laws", were never placed within The Ark of The Covenant, where The Ten Commandments Tablets are. The "Law" is the Ten Commandments.

And The Messiah clearly stated that they are to be kept, without mentioning anything about the so called "613 Laws":

Mat 19:16 Behold, one came to him and said, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?”
Mat 19:17 He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Mat 19:18 He said to him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder.’ ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ ‘You shall not steal.’ ‘You shall not offer false testimony.’


Mat 22:34 But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, gathered themselves together.
Mat 22:35 One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him.
Mat 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
Mat 22:40 >>>The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”<<<
And Irish,..... The Covenant was given at Mt. Sinai, to All of the Children of Yisrael, not just the Tribe of Yudah, nor only the House of Yudah (The "Jews").
The "New Covenant" is the "Renewed Covenant", which will be placed within All Believers, as stated in Yeremiah 31:, & Ezekiel 36:, & 37:

"The rapture is not the second coming of Jesus."

The so called "Rapture", which The Messiah called the "Gathering"&/or "Harvest", occurs per many Scriptures, only Once. And everybody involved, upon "Meeting in The Air", then come back down to Earth.
Mat_9:38 Pray therefore that the Lord of the harvest will send out laborers into his harvest.”

"Mathew was referring to the end times. So is the Book of Revelation."

Matthew 24:, & Rev.6:, have Preludes, which Mankind is experiencing, that lead up to the appearance of the "Abomination of Desolation/Beast", which will be a Time of Horror, never having been experiences by Mankind.
Where The Messiah Absolutely Taught, to Keep The Ten Commandments Covenant,..... How many of the thousands of "Christian Sects" do that Irish Ram?
And to Believe that all of them that "Proclaim Lord!,... While Rejecting His Teachings,.... Will be "Raptured Up" so as to Escape "The Time of Yacob's Trouble"/"The Tribulation",..... Is a Foolish Rejection of those Teachings.

Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’
Mat 7:23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.
 
Acts 17:30

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,


Isaiah 45:22

“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.


John 7:37

Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.


Acts 2:39

For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Jews have no need to repent
 
My impression is that those who die before the literal "Great Tribulation" will be among the first to meet Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in the air as He fulfills a promise that He made through an angel, in Acts chapter one.



Those who die in true faith and obedience before the Great Tribulation.... will NOT have to go through the Great Tribulation, but all followers of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus will suffer persecution at some level of another.
"Those who die in true faith and obedience before the Great Tribulation.... will NOT have to go through the Great Tribulation,"

Uhhhhhhh,.... Could that be cuz' they are Already Dead????
 
Time wasted though, because there is no multiverse.


If you are correct then you seem to be in disagreement with The Being of Light of near death experience fame, [according to many of His witnesses anyway], and their testimonies have impressed me.


1. Introduction to the Future and NDEs​

Many people were given visions of the future during their near-death experience (NDE). Download an ebook from Robert and Suzanne Mays‘ 2019 study presentation titled, “Prophetic Visions In Near-Death Experiences: Warnings For Our Times.” Generally, these visions foretell a future of catastrophic natural disasters and social upheaval leading to a new era of global peace and enlightenment. Some of these prophecies did not occur when they were foretold to occur; and there are good reasons for this which will be explained. Many of these apocalyptic visions have been predicted to occur within the next few decades. Remarkably, these visions of the future agree with prophecies of the Bible, Edgar Cayce, Nostradamus, and the Virgin Mary visitations of Fatima, Garabandal, Medjugorje and Zeitoun.

 
"Those who die in true faith and obedience before the Great Tribulation.... will NOT have to go through the Great Tribulation,"

Uhhhhhhh,.... Could that be cuz' they are Already Dead????

Yes, it is because they are already dead so at worst they can only view The Great Tribulation from a different perspective.
 
Why do you think that, Dennis? And why would the dead in Christ get a pass and the live followers of Christ have to suffer persecution? Why would God persecute The Bride of Jesus? What father would punish his child for being good, for loving His Son?
And the Bible says there is therefore no condemnation for those in Jesus. Then why mete out wrath to the innocent? That would make God less than 100 percent just.

And Jesus is going to show up twice. Once in the air, and once here on earth on the Mt. of Olives to end the Tribulation. So what was the purpose of showing up in the air prior to His return to earth? In the second event He stays on earth, in the first event he disappears in the twinkling of an eye, never touching earth, and only seen by His followers.
What was the purpose of the first event? What transpired in 11/100 of a second?
"why would the dead in Christ get a pass and the live followers of Christ have to suffer persecution? Why would God persecute The Bride of Jesus?"

Could it possibly have something to do with what The Messiah Taught???? :

Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines, plagues, and earthquakes in various places.
Mat 24:8 But all these things are the beginning of birth pains.
Mat 24:9 >>>>Then they will deliver you up to oppression, and will kill you. You will be hated by all of the nations for my name’s sake. <<<<
Mat 24:10 Then many will stumble, and will deliver up one another, and will hate one another.
Mat 24:11 Many false prophets will arise, and will lead many astray.
Mat 24:12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.
Ponder on how the Roman Emperors, & later the "Catholic Inquisitors" murdered those who refused to give up their Faith in The Messiah,..... Weren't they also of "The Bride of Christ"?!?

"And Jesus is going to show up twice.Once in the air, and once here on earth on the Mt. of Olives to end the Tribulation."

Wrong. They are the same Event, per several Scriptures.
Mat 24:29 But immediately after the oppression of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;
Mat 24:30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and >>>they will see<<< the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
 
15th post

New Topics

Latest Discussions

Back
Top Bottom