New Study: Gender surgery causes 12x increase in suicide

[ALightInTheDark]

Well first, right off the bat I notice this study is from the 1970s to 2003 and transcare has expanded since then so this, just on that alone, isn't a great example of medical professionals pulling back from gender affirming care. Secondly once you read the conclusions it states that surgery did alleviate gender dysphoria but suicidal tendencies remained and the recommendation was continued therapy after surgery. So even this study is still recommending surgery. Thirdly, those findings mirror more recent ones which stress that while gender affirming care does address gender dysphoria it doesn't address all the other psychological trauma associated with trans patients. They're more likely to suffer abuse, homelessness, job insecurity, and family abandonment. Those things don't go away because they received gender affirming care.

This one and more recent ones debunk the idea that it decreases suicide.

This is due to the fact that these individuals have a syndrome that causes several symptoms, including wanting to be the opposite sex Suicidality and so on. Treating it with SRS placates the delusional aspect of the disorder rather than treating the root cause.

 

[Curried Goats]

This one and more recent ones debunk the idea that it decreases suicide.

This is due to the fact that these individuals have a syndrome that causes several symptoms, including wanting to be the opposite sex Suicidality and so on. Treating it with SRS placates the delusional aspect of the disorder rather than treating the root cause.

You don't get to make up your conclusions and pretend they are the same as the studies you cite. The one you cited recommend surgery and therapy and said nothing about delusion. Maybe in a bit of irony you were simply imagining it did.

 

[Papageorgio]

Well, it's a stupid comparison, even for you, Stalkergeorgio.

We know that anorexics aren't overweight.

We know that gender dysphoric people identify with something other than their birth gender.


Then you should support gender-affirming care.

You replied to me, not the other way around. Seems you are the stalker, asshole. No other conversation with you is needed, unless you are stalking me.

 

[ALightInTheDark]

You don't get to make up your conclusions and pretend they are the same as the studies you cite. The one you cited recommend surgery and therapy and said nothing about delusion. Maybe in a bit of irony you were simply imagining it did.

I'm not claiming that study suggested that. I'm claiming the study shows it doesn't decrease Suicidality. There are many other studies that have been done that support my theory about it being a syndrome. None of them come out and say it directly, but the totality of all of them support this hypothesis. This and the fact that gender identity theory is highly flawed/inaccurate and not supported by science.

 

[Curried Goats]

I'm not claiming that study suggested that. I'm claiming the study shows it doesn't decrease Suicidality. There are many other studies that have been done that support my theory about it being a syndrome. None of them come out and say it directly, but the totality of all of them support this hypothesis. This and the fact that gender identity theory is highly flawed/inaccurate and not supported by science.

Who said the purpose of gender affirming care was to reduce suicide? The purpose of gender affirming care is to reduce gender dysphoria which it does according to your own link.

 

[ALightInTheDark]

Who said the purpose of gender affirming care was to reduce suicide? The purpose of gender affirming care is to reduce gender dysphoria which it does according to your own link.

Again, it's not a 100% bandaid for that and it's placating one symptom of a larger syndrome with many other symptoms. It would be like giving liposuction to an anorexic. It would make them happy but they'd still have problems. It also wouldn't be healthy for them.

 

[Papageorgio]

Again, it's not a 100% bandaid for that and it's placating one symptom of a larger syndrome with many other symptoms. It would be like giving liposuction to an anorexic. It would make them happy but they'd still have problems. It also wouldn't be healthy for them.

Just like with most doctors, they want to put a band aid on a problem instead of finding and healing the root cause of the problem.

 

[Curried Goats]

Again, it's not a 100% bandaid for that and it's placating one symptom of a larger syndrome with many other symptoms.

Name those other symptoms and what causes them because it doesnt seem like you know.

It would be like giving liposuction to an anorexic. It would make them happy but they'd still have problems. It also wouldn't be healthy for them.

I'm not interested in your uneducated opinion, I'm interested in the actual conclusions of learned individuals.

 

[ALightInTheDark]

Name those other symptoms and what causes them because it doesnt seem like you know.

50% of these individuals that seek SRS have personality disorders and around 60% have mental health disorders. They also commit suicide at inordinately high rates both pre and post SRS. Some research suggests that they also have brains different from both sexes. This all points it a syndrome, or overall brain or mental condition.

I'm not interested in your uneducated opinion, I'm interested in the actual conclusions of learned individuals.

That's what they all say. No respect for reason

 

[DGS49]

The Control Group must be people who identify as the opposite sex but do not have surgery. Then see whether getting your parts destroyed to suit your delusion actually "helps."

Having the surgery means: You will definitely never have a child, you will definitely never have an intimate relationship, or even an intimate encounter. That alone might cause suicide for someone who was born with a cock and balls.

 

[Curried Goats]

50% of these individuals that seek SRS have personality disorders and around 60% have mental health disorders. They also commit suicide at inordinately high rates both pre and post SRS. Some research suggests that they also have brains different from both sexes. This all points it a syndrome, or overall brain or mental condition.

That's what they all say. No respect for reason

First I don't know where you're getting those numbers from. Secondly, I don't have the context for them. I know from the research I've read that trans people are far more likely to be suffering a mental disorder than the average person but those mental health disorders, like depression, are typically a result of other factors associated with being trans like lack of community support, frequent harassment and assault, and lack of access to care. Also I too have seen research that suggests the chemistry of trans brains are shifted more to their chosen sex, which isn't all that surprising to me. We have intersex people who's body chemistry and hormone production has resulted in them having a combination of male and female sex organs as well. So what? Your identity is also determined by your brain chemistry, your genitalia is also determined by your hormone production. Just as we're beginning to realize we don't have to "fix" the intersex and operate on them at birth to determine sex for them, mental health professionals, the people who write the literal book on mental health diagnosis and who publish the dsm-5 diagnostic manual, say that being trans itself is not a mental disorder.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

It is important to note that gender identity is different from gender expression. Whereas gender identity refers to one’s psychological sense of their gender, gender expression refers to the way in which one presents to the world in a gendered way. For example, in much of the U.S., wearing a dress is considered a “feminine” gender expression, and wearing a tuxedo is considered a “masculine” gender expression. Such expectations are culturally defined and vary across time and culture. One’s gender expression does not necessarily align with their gender identity. Diverse gender expressions, much like diverse gender identities, are not indications of a mental disorder.

Transgender people suffer from high levels of stigmatization, discrimination and victimization, contributing to negative self-image and increased rates of other mental health disorders. Transgender individuals are at higher risk of victimization and hate crimes than the general public. Suicide rates among transgender people are markedly higher than the general population.

 

[Papageorgio]

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder that is based on a persons feelings of discomfort in their own body. This belief also can cause other mental issues as well, such as depression, lack of self worth, lack of confidence, paranoia and other mental illness and disorders. Like with many that have mental illnesses and disorders they need to be treated with respect and kindness however we don’t have to appease their thoughts and fantasies.

 

[Curried Goats]

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder that is based on a persons feelings of discomfort in their own body. This belief also can cause other mental issues as well, such as depression, lack of self worth, lack of confidence, paranoia and other mental illness and disorders. Like with many that have mental illnesses and disorders they need to be treated with respect and kindness however we don’t have to appease their thoughts and fantasies.

If their brain chemistry is shifted to that of their chosen sex then their identity is no more a fantasy than yours is.

 

[Papageorgio]

If their brain chemistry is shifted to that of their chosen sex then their identity is no more a fantasy than yours is.

And I am not obligated to go along with their fantasy, that is my point, they can ask, but I am not in the least bit obligated.

 

[Curried Goats]

And I am not obligated to go along with their fantasy, that is my point, they can ask, but I am not in the least bit obligated.

What fantasy? Brain chemistry isn't fantasy, that's chemistry and science.

 

[Papageorgio]

What fantasy? Brain chemistry isn't fantasy, that's chemistry and science.

I had a guy come into our office all the time and had delusional disorder, he thought he was Johnny Cash, so we all need to treat him like Johnny Cash?

In Trumps brain chemistry he is the greatest person to have ever lived, so am I obligated to indulge him in his beliefs?
I treat people with mental disorders kindly and respectfully, I still don’t have to go along with their belief and they don’t need to go along with mine.

 

[Curried Goats]

I had a guy come into our office all the time and had delusional disorder, he thought he was Johnny Cash, so we all need to treat him like Johnny Cash?

In Trumps brain chemistry he is the greatest person to have ever lived, so am I obligated to indulge him in his beliefs?

Is the guy who thinks he's Johnny Cash or the guy who thinks he's the greatest person that much different than the person who fancies themselves more knowledgeable than mental health professionals? How should I treat you in this instance? Should I entertain your delusions of medical competence?

The obvious problem with your examples is that, objectively, those beliefs have no objective basis. Johnny Cash was an actual human being, if you're not him, thinking you are him is a delusion. Being the greatest is a simple measurement or comparison. Trump may think he's the greatest golfer ever but if he plays Rory and gets smoked then that's objective evidence that he isn't. You don't have the same with trans people. Their identities and brain chemistry are shifted towards the opposite sex. That is objectively true unlike your silly, anecdotal examples.

I treat people with mental disorders kindly and respectfully, I still don’t have to go along with their belief and they don’t need to go along with mine.

How should we treat people who know they aren't medical professionals but pretend they know more than the people who are in an attempt to give credence to their bigotry?

 

[ALightInTheDark]

First I don't know where you're getting those numbers from.

~50% of these individuals who have SRS, have personality disorders.

Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017) - PMC

This study explored the overall suicide death rate, the incidence over time, and the stage in transition where suicide deaths were observed in transgender people. A chart study, including all 8263 referrals to our clinic since 1972. Information on ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

~60% of them have mental health disorders.

Personality Disorders and Personality Profiles in a Sample of Transgender Individuals Requesting Gender-Affirming Treatments - PMC

The study aims to explore the personality patterns of a group of transgender individuals who accessed an Italian gender clinic to undergo gender affirming treatments, by evaluating both dimensional personality domains proposed by the Alternative ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

~42% of individuals with these have attempted suicide.

Mental Health Diagnoses Among Transgender Patients in the Clinical Setting: An All-Payer Electronic Health Record Study - PMC

We performed a cross-sectional analysis of the prevalence of psychiatric diagnoses among transgender patients in clinical care using an all-payer electronic health record database. Of 10,270 transgender patients identified, 58% (n=5940) had at least ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

One study suggests between 73% and 80% have experienced trauma or abuse prior to adulthood and another study suggest 59% of them have PTSD.

Higher Prevalence of Adverse Childhood Experiences in Transgender Than in Cisgender Individuals: Results from a Single-Center Observational Study - PMC

Adverse childhood experiences (ACE) have been shown to have a tremendous negative impact on health outcomes later in life. This study presents data on the prevalence of ACEs, psychological distress, and trauma-related symptoms in transgender and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Disparities in Childhood Abuse Between Transgender and Cisgender Adolescents - PubMed

In a nationwide online sample of US adolescents, TGAs had elevated rates of psychological, physical, and sexual abuse compared with heterosexual CGAs. Risk for psychological abuse was highest among TGAs assigned female at birth. In the future, researchers should examine how more frequent...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

None of these issues are explained by gender identity disorder and none of them are solved by SRS.

Secondly, I don't have the context for them. I know from the research I've read that trans people are far more likely to be suffering a mental disorder than the average person but those mental health disorders, like depression, are typically a result of other factors associated with being trans like lack of community support, frequent harassment and assault, and lack of access to care.

Mental health disorders often have a gene-environment interaction cause. And from what I've seen, these individuals have quite a bit of support from the community. They don't appear to be harassed any more than anyone else.

Also I too have seen research that suggests the chemistry of trans brains are shifted more to their chosen sex, which isn't all that surprising to me.

Not necessarily shifted toward one sex or the other, but different than both sexes. Also, there isn't medical consensus that there are any differences at all.

We have intersex people who's body chemistry and hormone production has resulted in them having a combination of male and female sex organs as well. So what? Your identity is also determined by your brain chemistry, your genitalia is also determined by your hormone production. Just as we're beginning to realize we don't have to "fix" the intersex and operate on them at birth to determine sex for them, mental health professionals, the people who write the literal book on mental health diagnosis and who publish the dsm-5 diagnostic manual, say that being trans itself is not a mental disorder.

What is Gender Dysphoria?

Gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder have been disorders given to these individuals that seek treatment for years and years.

It is important to note that gender identity is different from gender expression. Whereas gender identity refers to one’s psychological sense of their gender, gender expression refers to the way in which one presents to the world in a gendered way. For example, in much of the U.S., wearing a dress is considered a “feminine” gender expression, and wearing a tuxedo is considered a “masculine” gender expression. Such expectations are culturally defined and vary across time and culture. One’s gender expression does not necessarily align with their gender identity. Diverse gender expressions, much like diverse gender identities, are not indications of a mental disorder.

We all know about people who want to dress like the opposite sex. What's your point? By the way, the idea that we have a "gender identity" is highly flawed. It's as simple as this: these individuals want to be the opposite sex or want to portray themselves as the opposite sex. It's a dissatisfaction with one's own sex and or a desire to be the opposite sex. They use fancy made up concepts like gender identity to justify SRS. It hints at the idea that these people were somehow born in the wrong body, which justifies the surgery. It also hints at the idea that someone can somehow feel like the opposite sex, which also isn't true.

Transgender people suffer from high levels of stigmatization, discrimination and victimization,

Show studies and statistics for this please

contributing to negative self-image and increased rates of other mental health disorders.

These individuals already have a negative self image. They aren't happy with their sex and want to be the opposite sex. Yes, they have high levels of mental health disorder and SRS doesn't fix this. That's my point.

Transgender individuals are at higher risk of victimization and hate crimes than the general public.

Show me statistics and studies for this please

Suicide rates among transgender people are markedly higher than the general population.

Yes indeed and SRS doesn't reduce this

 

[Curried Goats]

~50% of these individuals who have SRS, have personality disorders.

Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017) - PMC

This study explored the overall suicide death rate, the incidence over time, and the stage in transition where suicide deaths were observed in transgender people. A chart study, including all 8263 referrals to our clinic since 1972. Information on ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

~60% of them have mental health disorders.

Personality Disorders and Personality Profiles in a Sample of Transgender Individuals Requesting Gender-Affirming Treatments - PMC

The study aims to explore the personality patterns of a group of transgender individuals who accessed an Italian gender clinic to undergo gender affirming treatments, by evaluating both dimensional personality domains proposed by the Alternative ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

~42% of individuals with these have attempted suicide.

Mental Health Diagnoses Among Transgender Patients in the Clinical Setting: An All-Payer Electronic Health Record Study - PMC

We performed a cross-sectional analysis of the prevalence of psychiatric diagnoses among transgender patients in clinical care using an all-payer electronic health record database. Of 10,270 transgender patients identified, 58% (n=5940) had at least ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

One study suggests between 73% and 80% have experienced trauma or abuse prior to adulthood and another study suggest 59% of them have PTSD.

Higher Prevalence of Adverse Childhood Experiences in Transgender Than in Cisgender Individuals: Results from a Single-Center Observational Study - PMC

Adverse childhood experiences (ACE) have been shown to have a tremendous negative impact on health outcomes later in life. This study presents data on the prevalence of ACEs, psychological distress, and trauma-related symptoms in transgender and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Disparities in Childhood Abuse Between Transgender and Cisgender Adolescents - PubMed

In a nationwide online sample of US adolescents, TGAs had elevated rates of psychological, physical, and sexual abuse compared with heterosexual CGAs. Risk for psychological abuse was highest among TGAs assigned female at birth. In the future, researchers should examine how more frequent...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

None of these issues are explained by gender identity disorder and none of them are solved by SRS.


Mental health disorders often have a gene-environment interaction cause. And from what I've seen, these individuals have quite a bit of support from the community. They don't appear to be harassed any more than anyone else.

Not necessarily shifted toward one sex or the other, but different than both sexes. Also, there isn't medical consensus that there are any differences at all.

Gender dysphoria and gender identity disorder have been disorders given to these individuals that seek treatment for years and years.

We all know about people who want to dress like the opposite sex. What's your point? By the way, the idea that we have a "gender identity" is highly flawed. It's as simple as this: these individuals want to be the opposite sex or want to portray themselves as the opposite sex. It's a dissatisfaction with one's own sex and or a desire to be the opposite sex. They use fancy made up concepts like gender identity to justify SRS. It hints at the idea that these people were somehow born in the wrong body, which justifies the surgery. It also hints at the idea that someone can somehow feel like the opposite sex, which also isn't true.

Show studies and statistics for this please

These individuals already have a negative self image. They aren't happy with their sex and want to be the opposite sex. Yes, they have high levels of mental health disorder and SRS doesn't fix this. That's my point.

Show me statistics and studies for this please

Yes indeed and SRS doesn't reduce this

You just showed those studies you Clown. Did you bother to read any of them? Your own studies cite abuse and discrimination as some of the leading causes of these other personality disorders like anxiety and depression. This is what I mean about context. You point to the studies when you want to show that trans people suffer from these things more than the general population but then you want to insert your own conclusions and treatments based on nothing at all except your ignorant and bigoted opinion. So let's go through some of these studies that you linked to but apparently didn't read or understand.

The first study says this:

​

The current study investigated the suicide death risk in the largest clinical cohort of gender‐referred individuals to the Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria at the Amsterdam UMC, the Netherlands, between 1972 and 2017. Findings from the chart reviews showed us a decrease in suicide death risk over time in trans women and no change in suicide death risk in trans men. Trans women, however, showed a higher suicide death risk than trans men. Between 2013 and 2017, the suicide risk in Dutch referred transgender people (40 per 100 000 person years) showed to be three to four times higher than the general Dutch population (11 per 100 000 person years). Evaluation of transition stage in relation to suicide deaths showed that approximately two‐third of the observed suicides occurred in those who were still in active treatment (diagnostic, hormonal, or surgical phase). The incidence of suicide deaths and transition stage was similar in trans women and trans men.​

​

Suicidal behaviour is a complex phenomenon that is a result of many individual (age, male sex assigned at birth, previous suicide attempts, mental health history, substance abuse) as well as more distant environmental factors. A recent literature review clearly demonstrates the specific risk factors for suicide in sexual minority youth, which includes negative social environments, inadequate support within the closest social network, and an absence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) movements in communities. In our cohort, both trans women and trans men show a three‐ to four‐fold elevated risk of suicide compared with the population rate in the Netherlands and can therefore be considered a high‐risk group. Although the Netherlands is known for its tolerance toward sexual minority groups in comparison to most countries in the world, the societal position of trans people is generally less favorable compared with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and cis‐gender population. Furthermore, compared with trans men, the societal position of trans women is lower.​

​

​

Here's a little excerpt from your third link:

​

This is, to our knowledge, the largest investigation of mental health diagnoses and substance use prevalence in transgender individuals. We found a statistically significant increase in mental health diagnoses, including mood and anxiety disorders, PTSD, schizophrenia, personality disorders, attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, autism, and substance use disorders. This increased risk has been attributed, in part, to the high rates of discrimination and violence transgender individuals experience. The rates seen in this article are likely inflated by several confounding factors, including the prerequisite mental health assessment before starting medical interventions for transitioning, which may lead to misdiagnosis or overdiagnosis.​

​

Although the results of this study suggest increased lifetime prevalence of all mental health disorders among transgender persons, the data do not allow us to track symptoms longitudinally over a patient's medical or surgical transition, which nonrandomized prospective and retrospective studies suggest improve mental health. The emerging field of transgender pediatric research has demonstrated improved mental health outcomes when children are allowed to socially transition at a young age. Improved social support in childhood among transgender persons may be a critical point of intervention for the prevention of significant mental illness in adulthood as described in this article.​

 

[Papageorgio]

Is the guy who thinks he's Johnny Cash or the guy who thinks he's the greatest person that much different than the person who fancies themselves more knowledgeable than mental health professionals? How should I treat you in this instance? Should I entertain your delusions of medical competence?

The obvious problem with your examples is that, objectively, those beliefs have no objective basis. Johnny Cash was an actual human being, if you're not him, thinking you are him is a delusion. Being the greatest is a simple measurement or comparison. Trump may think he's the greatest golfer ever but if he plays Rory and gets smoked then that's objective evidence that he isn't. You don't have the same with trans people. Their identities and brain chemistry are shifted towards the opposite sex. That is objectively true unlike your silly, anecdotal examples.


How should we treat people who know they aren't medical professionals but pretend they know more than the people who are in an attempt to give credence to their bigotry?

First off, I told you I don’t expect anyone to entertain my beliefs, and I don’t need to entertain anyone else’s.

Trump has a narcissism disorder, Johnny Cash has a delusional disorder and transgenders have gender identity disorder, they all believe something they are not. There is race identity disorder as well. If adults want to look like something they are not, more power to them. If they want surgery to help them feel better about themselves, I have no issue. Kids that don’t even know what they want to be when they grow up, that can’t decide who they really are, should wait and many in the medical community and most Americans agree with my stance.