Then why not the full post, or would that not have been the same and you could not imply anything by it. Called cherry picking and one of the last resorts for disinformation taught by the Russians to discredit the west.
Netanyahu causes uproar by linking Palestinians to Holocaust
- Thread starter Coyote
- Start date
Then why not the full post, or would that not have been the same and you could not imply anything by it. Called cherry picking and one of the last resorts for disinformation taught by the Russians to discredit the west.
aris2chat
Gold Member
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He had then interred. The final solution came after the arrest of the jews in Europe had begun, after the meeting with the mufti. Yes, hitler let some leave, without their funds in the early years. The final solution was not part of his original idea, but eliminating them in the Europe was. Most camps used the jews and other prisoners for forced labor, slaves.
Mufti was a major encouragement of the final solution. He did not want the jews to go to the middle east. The mufti's fight with the jews began in the early 20's, before hitler. He took his hate with him and wanted all jews killed, not just removed from Europe or the middle east.
We have transcript of the what the talks involved if not a word for word. There were more meets recorded than actual releases of topics between the two.
I wish I had my library of books, There were at least two very good books that detail the relationship between the two in german that used for reference decades ago. I know there have been dozens in English, I'm sure many have details of the text as well. The nazi recorded and documented everything, almost. Hitler and mufti were not just two leaders shaking hands, there was a bond and mutual support of ideas and actions.
Towards the end Hitler gave the mufti millions in gold to carry on the final solution in the middle east.
They were both culpable, regardless who first came up with the idea. They both were advocates of the final solution, the extermination of all jews. Since the mufti was the first to incite the killing of jews, it is logical that he encouraged hitler to kill rather than expel the jews. They both had great reason to want the jews dead. They both acted and had jews killed in masses. The both wanted the memory of jews to be erased. They were both mass murders. They each support the other in their goals.
Flip a coin, they are both guilt of the holocaust
How was Bibi wrong? Palestinians and many other arabs still want the extermination of the jews. They are still trying to wipe the jews from history. They use the same propaganda and libels that the nazis used. They still use the same language, they follow hitlers book, the most read after the quran.
None of this has been a secret. This is just what was, and still is. Why do people fain shock as if this is a new revelation? When the mufti was expelled by the brits, he ran to hitler. From that point on the jewish issue change intensity. Make a timeline and see after each meeting with the mufti how events changed.
I really don't know why this is even news.
montelatici
Gold Member
- Feb 5, 2014
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You are so full of shit. You just make things up, have you no shame?
Palestinians just want the offspring of the Jews that took their land to go back to Europe, Russia etc. where their ancestors came from. They want their land back.
Can't you understand something so damn simple?
Regarding Nutty Yahoo's bullshit:
"Prof. Meir Litvak, a historian at Tel Aviv University, called the speech “a lie” and “a disgrace.” Prof. Moshe Zimmermann, a specialist of German history at Hebrew University, said, “With this, Netanyahu joins a long line of people that we would call Holocaust deniers.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/22/w...red-holocaust-draws-broad-criticism.html?_r=0
Palestinians just want the offspring of the Jews that took their land to go back to Europe, Russia etc. where their ancestors came from. They want their land back.
Can't you understand something so damn simple?
Regarding Nutty Yahoo's bullshit:
"Prof. Meir Litvak, a historian at Tel Aviv University, called the speech “a lie” and “a disgrace.” Prof. Moshe Zimmermann, a specialist of German history at Hebrew University, said, “With this, Netanyahu joins a long line of people that we would call Holocaust deniers.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/22/w...red-holocaust-draws-broad-criticism.html?_r=0
jillian
Princess
while i'm sure Israel appreciates your advice, I've never seen you equipped to opine on this subject... well, except when you defend sunni ijit.
jillian
Princess
so spaketh one of the jew-hating spambots.....
- Thread starter
- #126
The reason it is news is this: A state leader is making deliberately false remarks designed to inflame tensions, fear and further demonize people. What he is doing I might add - is no different than the Palestinian leadership in mixing truth and fiction to inflame. What is Netanyahu's purpose in pushing this at this particular time?
There are many people guilty of the Holocaust to greater and lesser extents, but this is an attempt to portray the Mufti, not as one of the many lesser, but as The Archetect of the Final Solution and there is little factual evidence to show it. It's as dishonest a rewriting of history as the Holocaust Deniers and that isn't just me saying that, it is respectable historians. No one is "white washing" the Mufti, but he was by far a lesser evil than Hitler and to make false statements such as Netanyahu made, coupled with things he said during the election make his motives questionable.
On Mein Kampf, it's popularity varies across the Arab World. In one Palestinian Poll it was 4th most popular, in Turkey it was 6th in the best seller list. It also made the LA Times best seller list as an E-Book. Given the rise of intolerance and ethnic/religious nationalism it is disturbing. But that is no reason to use deliberate distortions to further inflame tensions. Leaders have a duty to calm fears and keep their citizens secure (ALL their citizens). Is ANYONE doing this? Is this what Netanyahu is doing?
Amin al-Husseini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Holocaust
Al-Husseini and the Holocaust
In post-war historiography some attempts have been made to portray Husseini as an architect of the Holocaust, a thesis revived recently by Schwanitz and Rubin.[168] In October 2015, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's revived the claim, stating that al-Husseini bore some responsibility for the Holocaust. His remarks were broadly criticized, and dismissed by Holocaust and Israeli scholars.[169][170] [171] Documents, such as the testimony of Fritz Grobba,[172] confirm that an associate of al-Husseini's, together with three associates of the former Iraqi Prime Minister certainly did visit the Sachsenhausen concentration camp as part of a German secret police "training course" in July 1942. At the time, the Sachsenhausen camp housed large numbers of Jews, but was only transformed into a death camp in the following year.[173] Their tour through the camp presented it as a re-educational institution, and they were shown the high quality of objects made by inmates, and happy Russian prisoners who, reformed to fight Bolshevism, were paraded, singing, in sprightly new uniforms. They left the camp very favourably impressed by its programme of educational indoctrination.[174]
Various sources have repeatedly alleged that he visited other concentration camps, and also the death camps of Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka and Mauthausen, but according to Höpp there is little conclusive documentary evidence to substantiate these other visits.[175] Although some historians have questioned al-Husseini's knowledge of the Holocaust while it was in progress, Wolfgang G. Schwanitz notes that in his memoirs Husseini recalled that Heinrich Himmler, in the summer of 1943, while confiding some German war secrets, inveighed against Jewish "war guilt", and revealed the ongoing extermination (in Arabic, abadna) of the Jews.[176]
Gilbert Achcar, referring to this meeting with Himmler, observes:
The Mufti was well aware that the European Jews were being wiped out; he never claimed the contrary. Nor, unlike some of his present-day admirers, did he play the ignoble, perverse, and stupid game of Holocaust denial... . His amour-propre would not allow him to justify himself to the Jews... .gloating that the Jews had paid a much higher price than the Germans... he cites... : 'Their losses in the Second World War represent more than thirty percent of the total number of their people ...'. Statements like this, from a man who was well placed to know what the Nazis had done ... constitute a powerful argument against Holocaust deniers. Husseini reports that Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler ... told him in summer 1943 that the Germans had ‘already exterminated more than three million’ Jews: "I was astonished by this figure, as I had known nothing about the matter until then." ... Thus. in 1943, Husseini knew about the genocide... .[177]
The memoir then continues:-
Himmler asked me on the occasion: 'How do you propose to settle the Jewish question in your country?' I replied: 'All we want from them is that they return to their countries of origin.' He (Himmler) replied: 'We shall never authorize their return to Germany.'[178]
Wolfgang G. Schwanitz doubts the sincerity of his surprise since, he argues, Husseini had publicly declared that Muslims should follow the example Germans set for a "definitive solution to the Jewish problem".[179]
Subsequently, the Mufti declared in November 1943:
It is the duty of Muhammadans [Muslims] in general and Arabs in particular to ... drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries... . Germany is also struggling against the common foe who oppressed Arabs and Muhammadans in their different countries. It has very clearly recognized the Jews for what they are and resolved to find a definitive solution [endgültige Lösung] for the Jewish danger that will eliminate the scourge that Jews represent in the world.[180]
At the Nuremberg trials, one of Adolf Eichmann's deputies, Dieter Wisliceny, stated that al-Husseini had actively encouraged the extermination of European Jews, and that he had had an elaborate meeting with Eichmann at his office, during which Eichmann gave him an intensive look at the current state of the "Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe" by the Third Reich. The allegation is dismissed by most serious historians.[181] A single affidavit by Rudolf Kastner reported that Wisliceny told him that he had overheard Husseini say he had visited Auschwitz incognito in Eichmann's company.[182] Eichmann denied this at his trial in Jerusalem in 1961. He had been invited to Palestine in 1937 with his superior Hagen by a representative of the Haganah, Feival Polkes,[183] Polkes supported German foreign policy in the Near East and offered to work for them in intelligence. Eichmann and Hagen spent one night in Haifa but were refused a visa to stay any longer.[184] They met Polkes in Cairo instead.[184][185] Eichmann stated that he had only been introduced to al-Husseini during an official reception, along with all other department heads. The Jerusalem court accepted Wisliceny's testimony about a key conversation between Eichmann and the mufti,[186] and found as proven that al-Husseini had aimed to implement the Final Solution.[187] Hannah Arendt, who was present at the trial, concluded in her book, Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil, that the evidence for an Eichmann- al-Husseini connection was based on rumour and unfounded.[188][189]
Rafael Medoff concludes that 'actually there is no evidence that the Mufti's presence was a factor at all; the Wisliceny hearsay is not merely uncorroborated, but conflicts with everything else that is known about the origins of the Final Solution.'[190] Bernard Lewis also called Wisliceny's testimony into doubt: 'There is no independent documentary confirmation of Wisliceny's statements, and it seems unlikely that the Nazis needed any such additional encouragement from the outside.'[191] Bettina Stangneth called Wisliceny's claims "colourful stories" that "carry little weight".[192]
Al-Husseini and the Holocaust
In post-war historiography some attempts have been made to portray Husseini as an architect of the Holocaust, a thesis revived recently by Schwanitz and Rubin.[168] In October 2015, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's revived the claim, stating that al-Husseini bore some responsibility for the Holocaust. His remarks were broadly criticized, and dismissed by Holocaust and Israeli scholars.[169][170] [171] Documents, such as the testimony of Fritz Grobba,[172] confirm that an associate of al-Husseini's, together with three associates of the former Iraqi Prime Minister certainly did visit the Sachsenhausen concentration camp as part of a German secret police "training course" in July 1942. At the time, the Sachsenhausen camp housed large numbers of Jews, but was only transformed into a death camp in the following year.[173] Their tour through the camp presented it as a re-educational institution, and they were shown the high quality of objects made by inmates, and happy Russian prisoners who, reformed to fight Bolshevism, were paraded, singing, in sprightly new uniforms. They left the camp very favourably impressed by its programme of educational indoctrination.[174]
Various sources have repeatedly alleged that he visited other concentration camps, and also the death camps of Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka and Mauthausen, but according to Höpp there is little conclusive documentary evidence to substantiate these other visits.[175] Although some historians have questioned al-Husseini's knowledge of the Holocaust while it was in progress, Wolfgang G. Schwanitz notes that in his memoirs Husseini recalled that Heinrich Himmler, in the summer of 1943, while confiding some German war secrets, inveighed against Jewish "war guilt", and revealed the ongoing extermination (in Arabic, abadna) of the Jews.[176]
Gilbert Achcar, referring to this meeting with Himmler, observes:
The Mufti was well aware that the European Jews were being wiped out; he never claimed the contrary. Nor, unlike some of his present-day admirers, did he play the ignoble, perverse, and stupid game of Holocaust denial... . His amour-propre would not allow him to justify himself to the Jews... .gloating that the Jews had paid a much higher price than the Germans... he cites... : 'Their losses in the Second World War represent more than thirty percent of the total number of their people ...'. Statements like this, from a man who was well placed to know what the Nazis had done ... constitute a powerful argument against Holocaust deniers. Husseini reports that Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler ... told him in summer 1943 that the Germans had ‘already exterminated more than three million’ Jews: "I was astonished by this figure, as I had known nothing about the matter until then." ... Thus. in 1943, Husseini knew about the genocide... .[177]
The memoir then continues:-
Himmler asked me on the occasion: 'How do you propose to settle the Jewish question in your country?' I replied: 'All we want from them is that they return to their countries of origin.' He (Himmler) replied: 'We shall never authorize their return to Germany.'[178]
Wolfgang G. Schwanitz doubts the sincerity of his surprise since, he argues, Husseini had publicly declared that Muslims should follow the example Germans set for a "definitive solution to the Jewish problem".[179]
Subsequently, the Mufti declared in November 1943:
It is the duty of Muhammadans [Muslims] in general and Arabs in particular to ... drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries... . Germany is also struggling against the common foe who oppressed Arabs and Muhammadans in their different countries. It has very clearly recognized the Jews for what they are and resolved to find a definitive solution [endgültige Lösung] for the Jewish danger that will eliminate the scourge that Jews represent in the world.[180]
At the Nuremberg trials, one of Adolf Eichmann's deputies, Dieter Wisliceny, stated that al-Husseini had actively encouraged the extermination of European Jews, and that he had had an elaborate meeting with Eichmann at his office, during which Eichmann gave him an intensive look at the current state of the "Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe" by the Third Reich. The allegation is dismissed by most serious historians.[181] A single affidavit by Rudolf Kastner reported that Wisliceny told him that he had overheard Husseini say he had visited Auschwitz incognito in Eichmann's company.[182] Eichmann denied this at his trial in Jerusalem in 1961. He had been invited to Palestine in 1937 with his superior Hagen by a representative of the Haganah, Feival Polkes,[183] Polkes supported German foreign policy in the Near East and offered to work for them in intelligence. Eichmann and Hagen spent one night in Haifa but were refused a visa to stay any longer.[184] They met Polkes in Cairo instead.[184][185] Eichmann stated that he had only been introduced to al-Husseini during an official reception, along with all other department heads. The Jerusalem court accepted Wisliceny's testimony about a key conversation between Eichmann and the mufti,[186] and found as proven that al-Husseini had aimed to implement the Final Solution.[187] Hannah Arendt, who was present at the trial, concluded in her book, Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil, that the evidence for an Eichmann- al-Husseini connection was based on rumour and unfounded.[188][189]
Rafael Medoff concludes that 'actually there is no evidence that the Mufti's presence was a factor at all; the Wisliceny hearsay is not merely uncorroborated, but conflicts with everything else that is known about the origins of the Final Solution.'[190] Bernard Lewis also called Wisliceny's testimony into doubt: 'There is no independent documentary confirmation of Wisliceny's statements, and it seems unlikely that the Nazis needed any such additional encouragement from the outside.'[191] Bettina Stangneth called Wisliceny's claims "colourful stories" that "carry little weight".[192]
- Thread starter
- #127
Do you have anything to say in relation to the OP? Nope. Didn't think so. Have a good day.
browsing deer
Silver Member
In 1939 jews were forbidden immigrants everywhere. Including the US.
Jews wanted to immigrate to the British mandate. The Mufti started riots. In order to calm the situation down the british forbade imigration at the muftis instigation.
Jews wanted to immigrate to the British mandate. The Mufti started riots. In order to calm the situation down the british forbade imigration at the muftis instigation.
- Thread starter
- #129
1. No one is denying the Mufti was a hateful little antisemite who was responsible for war crimes - that isn't the issue. He was an evil man.
2. Do you have a link or proof for your second claim?
Reality Check:
The Nuremberg laws were passed in 1935.
There is nothing there that indicates the Mufti had anything to do with it. His first approach to Hitler was 1940.
You cant understand something even more simple, it was never the arab muslims land in the first place. They lost it when they sided with the Ottomans during WW1. The mandate made it very clear that the land would be 78% arab muslim ruled by a Saudi king to keep the muslims in line, and 22% to be ruled by a Jewish democracy.
Did you miss this fact when you read the wiki entry
Some scholars, such as Schwanitz and Rubin, say that Husseini was an architect of the Holocaust.[168] In October 2015, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stated that al-Husseini inspired Hitler to systematically exterminate Jews in the Holocaust, rather than deracinating the Jewish population of Nazi-occupied Europe to modern-day Israel.
Documents, such as the testimony of Fritz Grobba,[172] confirm that an associate of al-Husseini's, together with three associates of the former Iraqi Prime Minister certainly did visit the Sachsenhausen concentration camp as part of a German secret police "training course" in July 1942. At the time, the Sachsenhausen camp housed large numbers of Jews, but was only transformed into a death camp in the following year.[173] Their tour through the camp presented it as a re-educational institution, and they were shown the high quality of objects made by inmates, and happy Russian prisoners who, reformed to fight Bolshevism, were paraded, singing, in sprightly new uniforms. They left the camp very favourably impressed by its programme of educational indoctrination
So you see he was culpable of the crime of genocide
- Thread starter
- #132
"Some scholars" -- however, did you notice the specifics that were said to have no evidence supporting the claims?
"The allegation is dismissed by most serious historians"
What Netanyahu said was patently false and designed to further stoke fear and inflame.
Lipush
Gold Member
"...Dared Professor Simon blaming the six million of Jews in Europe who died by the hands of Germany's Nazis- 'their fault' said it was. Where they not wise enough to buy the friendship or love of Hitler? The danger rising from the dictator of Egypt, a state which hurt the Jews after the Nazis took over this part of the world? ... Was it not known that the Mufti was both an accomplice and advisor of the genocide plot, that in most Arabs states admiration of Hitler increased during the second world-war? Is the respected professor positive that without the IDF's strengths, we wouldn't have met the same fate?"
-David Ben-Gurion, April 5th, 1961.
-David Ben-Gurion, April 5th, 1961.
- Thread starter
- #135
It's the same as old anti-Jewish laws in a number of European countries as well so the comparison is meaningless and there is no indicatin that the Nuremberg laws came through the Mufti. Again, it's trying to minimize what Hitler did.
- Thread starter
- #136
So again - what is Netanyahu's purpose in deliberately distorting history in this manner and at this particular time?
aris2chat
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Mufti had been in communication with Hitler since '33. Final solution was not even suggested till '41. Jews were persecuted and being rounded up, but the extermination did not begin till after the Mufti and Hitler discussed it.
Make a timeline of all correspondance and meeting with Germany and the mufti, then add in the direct meeting with Hitler. Compare that to the jewish question.
Sorry but it is not coincident when things changed.
Check the library, I'm sure there are lot of good books in English going back from the end of the war till the last decade, all connecting the mufti, hitler and holocaust. most of my books were dated from the 50's to 80's, with copies of german documents. I wish I still had access to them.
You expected the mufti to dissuade hitler? To suggest alternatives? You think the Mufti was neutral? That he was not thrilled by the final solution? That he took action to save masses of jews? He had been advocating the extermination since the 20's. The Mufti actively incited and justified massacres of jews. Now you want to white wash his image? Nothing suggest the mufti did not feed hitler's hate and paranoia. Mufti was paid to carry on the holocaust in eastern Europe and the middle east, in gold.
>>Dr. Serge Trifkovic documents the similarities between Al Husseini's brand of radical Islam and Nazism in his book The Sword of the Prophet. He noted parallels in both ideologies: anti-Semitism, quest for world dominance, demand for the total subordination of the free will of the individual, belief in the abolishment of the nation-state in favor of a "higher" community (in Islam the umma or community of all believers; in Nazism, the herrenvolk or master race), and belief in undemocratic governance by a "divine" leader (an Islamic caliph, or Nazi führer).
The Nazis provided Al Husseini with luxurious accommodations in Berlin and a monthly stipend in excess of $10,000. In return, he regularly appeared on German radio touting the Jews as the "most fierce enemies of Muslims," and implored an adoption of the Nazi "final solution" by Arabs. After the Nazi defeat at El Alamein in 1942, Al Husseini broadcast radio messages on Radio Berlin calling for continued Arabic resistance to Allied forces. In time, he came to be known as the "Fuhrer's Mufti" and the "Arab Fuhrer."
In March 1944, Al Husseini broadcast a call for a jihad to "kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion."
On numerous occasions, Al Husseini intervened in the fate of European Jews, most notably blocking Adolph Eichmann's deal with the Red Cross to exchange Jewish children for German POWs.
Moreover, Al Husseini personally recruited Bosnia Muslims for the German Waffen SS, including the Skanderberg Division from Albania and Hanjer Division from Bosnia. The Hanjer (Saber) Division of the Waffen SS was responsible for the murder of over 90 percent of the Yugoslavian Jewish population.
SS leader Heinrich Himmler was so pleased with Al Husseini's Muslim Nazis that he established the Dresden-based Mullah Military School for their continued recruitment and training. In 1944, Hanjer commandos parachuted into Tel Aviv and poisoned drinking wells in Jewish communities in an effort to stir up ethnic tensions.<<
Now you want to rewrite history to soften the mufti's involvement? The muslim brotherhood was support by hitler since the mid 30's. The mufti living in berlin for almost five years as a special guest of hitler's forking out $12 million a year, plus paying for his muslim SS army and the MB in the middle east.
You think hitler just through the mufti was a nice guy? You think Hitler was so generous when most germans earned maybe a couple thousand a year?
After the '41 meeting hitler made a public statement that "(the Fuhrer) would carry on the battle to the total destruction of the Judeo-Communist empire in Europe. A few months later the actual plans were drawn up to carry out the final solution and then put into play. Hitler even gave the mufti a written declaration of support and the plans they discussed after that meeting. How is this coincidence?
aris2chat
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>>Günther, Niklas; Zankel, Sönke (2006). Günther, Niklas; Zankel, Sönke, eds. Abrahams Enkel Juden, Christen, Muslime und die Schoa. Franz Steiner Verlag. ISBN 978-3-515-08979-1.<<
Penelope
Diamond Member
- Jul 15, 2014
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Well I do not believe there was any planned genocide, but I'm sure he is right, neither men wanted the Jews to settle or stay in their countries, but then again, no one wanted them. They either did not want to assimilate into the culture or they wanted to control the country they were in,
just like they are now in Palestine. Also its no secret they were very into national communism. the Zionist are into supremacy and capitalism, AKA, world domination using money and intimidation.
just like they are now in Palestine. Also its no secret they were very into national communism. the Zionist are into supremacy and capitalism, AKA, world domination using money and intimidation.
Last edited:
aris2chat
Gold Member
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Final solution was years after the Nuremberg laws.
and the Mufti was in correspondance with Germany since '33. He was preaching against the jews since the early '20s.
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