NATO summit

[Donald H]

NATO should declare Western Ukraine - i.e. west of the Dnipro river - to be a NATO protectorate.

That would eliminate missile attacks into Kyiv & Lviv, and any chance of an attack from Belarus.

It would free up Ukrainian forces to fight in Eastern Ukraine.

You've adopted my thesis!
But I think that would have to be agreed upon over a negotiating table with Russia and China.

 

[Silver Cat]

NATO should declare Western Ukraine - i.e. west of the Dnipro river - to be a NATO protectorate.

That would eliminate missile attacks into Kyiv & Lviv, and any chance of an attack from Belarus.

It would free up Ukrainian forces to fight in Eastern Ukraine.

And what NATO should do after the Russians attacked Lvov? Commit suicide?

 

[Hum Dinger]

The credible first strike capability is not about ability to burn down some enemy's cities by an out of blue attack. The credible first strike capability (AKA Deterence type II, AKA multistability) is the capability to survive his retaliation strike. It depends on capabilities of the first counter-force strike, on capabilities of ABD, on capabilities of the damage alleviation and recuperation.



They believe that they have 80% chance of successful counter-force strike after which the retaliation US strike won't kill more than 5 million of them and 15% chance of less effective counter-force strike after which American retaliation strike won't kill more than 20 millions of them. It's definitely not the chances they are ready take just for lulz, but it is definitely acceptable level of risk when the possible alternative is much worse (like losing Novorossia, Crimea and Sevastopol).

The Russians have no idea of the true military capabilities of the U.S. All they know is that in everyway, the U.S. has been decades ahead of Russia.

If Russia launched any nuclear strike against the U.S., the one thing that's for sure is that Russia would be incinerated from one end to the other. Whether any Russian missiles hit the U.S. is highly questionable.

 

[Hum Dinger]

And what NATO should do after the Russians attacked Lvov? Commit suicide?

Wipe out the Russian army in Ukraine - which they are very capable of.

The Russian army isn't much better than the Iraqis were.

 

[Silver Cat]

I truly believe that if Russia would be defeated then their only concern would or will be the complete destruction of humanity, due mostly to radiation as opposed to blasts in L.A., N.Y., etc.

Complete destruction of humanity is impossible.
And the radiation won't be the biggest problem either.

 

[Silver Cat]

Wipe out the Russian army in Ukraine - which they are very capable of.

The Russian army isn't much better than the Iraqis were.

It's much better. First of all, it has plenty of nukes.

 

[Silver Cat]

The Russians have no idea of the true military capabilities of the U.S. All they know is that in everyway, the U.S. has been decades ahead of Russia.

If Russia launched any nuclear strike against the U.S., the one thing that's for sure is that Russia would be incinerated from one end to the other. Whether any Russian missiles hit the U.S. is highly questionable.

I wish it were true. But in fact, the Russians are the strongest nuclear power in the world.

 

[Zincwarrior]

No, they didn't. From their point of view they are doing quite well.

Really? Finland is in NATO. Turkey just dropped its objection to Sweden being in NATO. The Russians have lost 50,000 - 150,000 troops, their economy is in shambles, and they just had a near coup from their own foreign mercenaries.

If this is quite well, what is bad, Ukrainian troops marching down Red Square?

 

[Hum Dinger]

I wish it were true. But in fact, the Russians are the strongest nuclear power in the world.

Did it ever occur to you that Reagan's 'Star Wars' program was successfully developed and implemented? Or do you think the U.S. military industrial complex just stopped and decided that they were making too much money?

 

[MisterBeale]

And there is a real possibility that the Americans survived after Russian nuclear attack won't even name themselves as Americans.

Based on what?

What makes you bleev that Russians would have any more ability to invade the American continent if the Chinese aren't in the meantime invading them?

It is all, just idle speculation.

You don't have a clue what you are saying. You really don't.
There is no, "real possibility." Not even a probability.

In such an aftermath of a nuclear exchange, more than likely, populations will submit to whomever can provide medical care, food and other aid. The Russians can't even do that in a non-decimated population.

What on Earth makes you bleev they would somehow survive NATO's nuclear sub fleet.

Your hypothesis are not even coming from reality here. The world would be decimated, and all nations would have a hard enough time, tending to its own. Get real.



"won't even name themselves as Americans."

 

[MisterBeale]

I wish it were true. But in fact, the Russians are the strongest nuclear power in the world.

Russia has the ability to destroy the west five times over, and the west only has the ability to destroy Russia three times over.

The entire planet will not recover for an hundred years or more.



.. . . oh, but Russia is stronger, so that matters.

 

[Silver Cat]

Really? Finland is in NATO.

Just one more bad egg in the basket to drop.

Turkey just dropped its objection to Sweden being in NATO.

Not yet, as far as I know.

The Russians have lost 50,000 - 150,000 troops,

Actually much lesser, but anyway, its not a big deal for them.

their economy is in shambles,

No.

and they just had a near coup from their own foreign mercenaries.

It was just a show to legitimize their transfer to Belarus and further raids in Poland and Lithuania.

If this is quite well, what is bad, Ukrainian troops marching down Red Square?

Actually, they had Ukrainian and Polish troops marching down Red Square (as well as 30% of their population killed) during the Time of troubles. It was bad, of course, but they won the war, recuperated and in fifty years transformed the Duchy of Moscow into the powerful Russian Empire.

 

[Silver Cat]

Russia has the ability to destroy the west five times over, and the west only has the ability to destroy Russia three times over.

No. Neither Russia nor West has that abilities. Both Russia and West are ideas, and ideas can't be destroyed by the weapons.

The entire planet will not recover for an hundred years or more.



.. . . oh, but Russia is stronger, so that matters.

Russia can win the war, and what is much more important, the USA can lose it. And I really don't like idea to gamble with the national security just to allow few corrupted politicians steal money in the conflict.

 

[MisterBeale]

No. Neither Russia nor West has that abilities. Both Russia and West are ideas, and ideas can't be destroyed by the weapons.

Bullshit.

If there is no one alive to bleev those ideas anymore, than they are irrelevant.

You sound as insane as the leaders. Nuclear weapons cannot, under any circumstances be used.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

The Ukraine invasion has gone on long enough. The summit should agree to Ukraine joining NATO asap and tell Putin to fuck off out of Ukraine.
The war has gone on long enough and is dragging all of us down.
Russia will crumble and we will have peace again.
Enough is enough. The war we should be fightting [sic] is the climate change war.

Feel free to pick up a rifle and head to the Ukraine/Russia front.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

So you [Tainted Tommy] have gone full retard.

He didn't just go there. That's where he has always been, all along.

 

[Flash]

It's much better. First of all, it has plenty of nukes.

They have a really dismal showing in Ukraine with a less than peer adversary. I think the Russians would fail miserably in any conventional conflict with any NATO country.

As far as nukes. Who knows how many of them actually work? It takes high tech to keep them operational and the Russians don't exactly have the greatest preventive maintenance programs. Besides, they have little chance of preventing any kind of retaliatory strike.

 

[Silver Cat]

Bullshit.

If there is no one alive to bleev those ideas anymore, than they are irrelevant.

Nuclear weapons alone can kill plenty of people, but not all of them.

You sound as insane as the leaders. Nuclear weapons cannot, under any circumstances be used.

Really. Ok. Let's play the game. Mexico, backed with China, Russia and almost whole Latin America (where Cuba and Venezuela already have some nuclear weapons), wants, for starters, return it's territoties of 1821, and deploy Russian missiles and tanks in Texas. And then - "decolonize the North America" which means that they are going to kill all Americans with European, Asian or African roots.
The only choice you have:
1. Surrender and be genocided.
2. Fight and win a local nuclear war in Mexico and Latin America with, say, 90% chance that your losses will be lesser than 1 million and 9% chance that they will be between 1 and ten millions and 1% chance that it will escalate to the large scale war with Russia and China.
3. Fight a nuclear war against Russia and China with 50/50 chances to win it with losses lesser than 50 million killed civilians.


Do you still think that you won't use the nuclear weapons in such circumstances?

 

[frigidweirdo]

This war was started by Biden. He was not interested in a diplomatic solution.

What diplomatic solution was there?

Do what Putin wants, give up the Ukraine to Russia

Chamberlain would have done that.

 

[Silver Cat]

They have a really dismal showing in Ukraine with a less than peer adversary. I think the Russians would fail miserably in any conventional conflict with any NATO country.

As far as nukes. Who knows how many of them actually work? It takes high tech to keep them operational and the Russians don't exactly have the greatest preventive maintenance programs. Besides, they have little chance of preventing any kind of retaliatory strike.

The official position of the US government is that Launch under Attack is unreliable option, which means that under certain circumstances the Russians can destroy all silos, all bombers and submarines in bases. Which means that any potential retaliation strike would be performed by few Ohio-class submarines, survived in the ocean. And under some circumstances this potential retaliation strike will kill less than one million of the Russians, which is definitely acceptable level of losses. And in this situation, according NDP, the USA will seek the best possible peace, which would mean "almost everything except for unconditional surrender"