NATO is at war with Russia

[justoffal]

Good timing for starting another thread on the war!
There appears to be a clear majority developed that at least understands that Russia is not the aggressor. That is, if we can include those who are still too confused to comment.

US domestic politics is playing a part in the considerable antiwar opinions of those who oppose Biden. And fortunately, it's not as if Biden shouldn't be opposed!

Shouldn't we try to move on to guessing how America is going to try to win this war, without getting outside of the mutually agreeable rules?

I'm beginning to think that the offensive is going to have to be the US/Nato bombardment of the Donbass from within Ukraine's borders. Could that become possible, within the rules?

That would be Ukrainian nationals fighting alongside Nato nationals and Americans, but under no flag.

Well....I believe there are American forces there now. I don't think Putin is going to take anything less than the two province's and of course Sevastopol. I think he will launch before he has to settle for that. Certainly there are many grievances to be addressed. With the new info ( new to me anyway) that Zalensky is not making orders but taking them...I'm not sure how to evaluate what level of severity will be necessary to start seeing concessions from either side.

 

[Donald H]

Well....I believe there are American forces there now.

Mercenary or under the American flag? If Russia inflicts injuries or deaths on Americans in the Ukraine, will that be claimed by America? Or is America willing to accept that those Americans were there fighting on their own volition? It seems to be a very important question, considering that America's position has to be on being non-combatants. Same for Canadians of course.
(getting a little compllicated now?)

I don't think Putin is going to take anything less than the two province's and of course Sevastopol. I think he will launch before he has to settle for that.

It would seem to be the case but I can't quite come to that conclusion. But I'll be damned if I'm not stuck for a good argument to say otherwise?
I think I know what is essential for both sides, but I can't imagine either side gaining anything if it all ends in nuclear war.

Certainly there are many grievances to be addressed.
With the new info ( new to me anyway) that Zalensky is not making orders but taking them...
I'm not sure how to evaluate what level of severity will be necessary to start seeing concessions from either side.

Has it been announced officially that Zelensky is only taking orders?
I've always believed that to be true but I don't know of it being admitted.

I think our opinions and musing are valuable to this forum. So far there's nobody else putting much serious effort into understanding what's happening.

Just continue to be the contrast to the childish spamming assholes we get to suffer.

 

[justoffal]

Mercenary or under the American flag? If Russia inflicts injuries or deaths on Americans in the Ukraine, will that be claimed by America? Or is America willing to accept that those Americans were there fighting on their own volition? It seems to be a very important question, considering that America's position has to be on being non-combatants. Same for Canadians of course.
(getting a little compllicated now?)

It would seem to be the case but I can't quite come to that conclusion. But I'll be damned if I'm not stuck for a good argument to say otherwise?
I think I know what is essential for both sides, but I can't imagine either side gaining anything if it all ends in nuclear war.

Has it been announced officially that Zelensky is only taking orders?
I've always believed that to be true but I don't know of it being admitted.

I think our opinions and musing are valuable to this forum. So far there's nobody else putting much serious effort into understanding what's happening.

Just continue to be the contrast to the childish spamming assholes we get to suffer.

There is just too much battlefield prowess for me to believe the Ukrainians are fighting by themselves. While the Russian army may certainly have suffered some financial lapses over the past several years the level of incompetency that the press is trying to put on them doesn't fit the real picture.

I believe when Putin ran across the border he ran into combined forces that were waiting for him in advance. He ran into a buzz saw that was hiding behind a curtain. I don't think he was expecting that. Additionally the sophistication needed to sink the Russian warship is most likely not available right now in Ukraine. If the Russian military plannners had thought that the Russian battleship would have been much farther offshore than it was. So I think yes American forces are there without the American flag and not in mercenary style either. That of course would be a betrayal of the American people. Not a stretch at all for this administration. Biden slipped more than once indicating that troops were there....If an American soldier gets shot and sent home in the body bag I imagine we'll find out the hard way what they've been up to.

Putin has shown a remarkable amount of restraint so far despite the fact that he's taken a pretty good black eye on the battlefield. Al Jazeera has reported mass arrests throughout the top military brass. I'm waiting to hear more about that. The west seems to have underestimated Putin's staying power politically. Then again they have done precious little to inform the American public of the atrocities committed against the Russian speaking Nationals in the two provinces currently being contested. Russian citizens on the other hand are probably very well aware of these things.

 

[Donald H]

There is just too much battlefield prowess for me to believe the Ukrainians are fighting by themselves. While the Russian army may certainly have suffered some financial lapses over the past several years the level of incompetency that the press is trying to put on them doesn't fit the real picture.

Yes, of course! The foreign fighters have to be there but need to be known as mercenaries by their respective governments. The sinking of Russia's missile cruiser would have not been Ukrainians responsible. And Russia's response will be on what they will know as the truth.

I believe when Putin ran across the border he ran into combined forces that were waiting for him in advance. I don't think he was expecting that. Additionally the sophistication needed to sink the Russian warship is most likely not available right now in Ukraine. If the Russian military plan is had thought that the Russian battleship would have been much farther offshore than it was. So I think yes American forces are there without the American flag and not in mercenary style either. That of course would be a betrayal of the American people. Not a stretch at all for this administration. Biden slipped more than once indicating that troops were there....
If an American soldier gets shot and sent home in the body bag I imagine we'll find out the hard way what they've been up to.

Are you saying that there is a position somewhere between a 'mercenary' and an official military member? Am I not using the term correctly?
I've noticed claims on the ship's position being 60 miles and also 80 miles. I'm not aware of each missile's capability?
Fwiw, do we take it that a missile cruiser of that vintage is so easily sunk? Or do we buy Russia's story?
If Russia intends equal consequences as revenge, I can imagine them wanting to stay with the 'fires sinking it'.

Putin has shown a remarkable amount of restraint so far despite the fact that he's taken a pretty good black eye on the battlefield.

I just don't know if it's a black eye for Russia that's out of proportion to what would be expected?

Al Jazeera has reported mass arrests throughout the top military brass. I'm waiting to hear more about that. The west seems to have underestimated Putin's staying power politically. Then again they have done precious little to inform the American public of the atrocities committed against the Russian speaking Nationals in the two provinces currently being contested. Russian citizens on the other hand are probably very well aware of these things.

I think that if we can take into consideration the immense consequences on winning or losing this war for both sides, (not ukraine) then nothing can be underestimated!

I'm not of any firm opinion on the Russian speaking people of the Donbass being so important? I lean heavily toward the territory being the issue for Russia, as it pertaiins to Russia being able to hold it's borders as the final red line.

This really is WW3 in my opinion!
The new sitzkreig so to speak.

As always Jo, thanks for your comments and opinions!

 

[Death-Ninja]

I haven't disagreed with you on blaming Obama and/or Biden. And I've said repeatedly that Trump would have been a better choice to avoid war with Russia.

I may disagree in part but I don't see anything of any real importance to single out and mention. So you can take my position as being in agreement with yours.

Could you clarify what you mean with Russia 'expanding the war'?
I'm of the opinion that Scott Ritter clarified everything when he explained Russia's soft war efforts on the siege of Kiev. He suggested that Kiev would have been completely destroyed by now if that was Russia's goal.
Does that have something to do with your 'expanded' comment?
In fact, I find Russia's actions so far to be exactly in accordance with their stated goals.

By expanded I mean exactly that, they expanded war nationwide vs restraining war effort to the two breakaway regions, where it had been raging since 2014. We do not know why he chose to do this, though I can venture some guesses, like most everyone else I anticipated Putin would simply take the two aforementioned regions and declare them along with the Crimea to be Russian, yet something occurred to spur him on further.

Perhaps he was hoping to spike the price of oil accordingly, and thus finance effort, perhaps Biden, and Nato deliberately encouraged him(entrapped), fully intending to crush Russia in a proxy war that Russia could never hope to win by conventional means, perhaps it was a combination of the two, we just do not know!

I know this, by the time you are losing boats, including a cruiser that will cost at least a billion dollars to replace if not double that(Arleigh Burke class destroyers cost $1.8 billion each), you have a problem, you could purchase an entire squadron of generation five stealth fighter jets, for the cost of replacing the Moskva once adjusted for costs in 2022....

 

[justoffal]

Yes, of course! The foreign fighters have to be there but need to be known as mercenaries by their respective governments. The sinking of Russia's missile cruiser would have not been Ukrainians responsible. And Russia's response will be on what they will know as the truth.

Are you saying that there is a position somewhere between a 'mercenary' and an official military member? Am I not using the term correctly?
I've noticed claims on the ship's position being 60 miles and also 80 miles. I'm not aware of each missile's capability?
Fwiw, do we take it that a missile cruiser of that vintage is so easily sunk? Or do we buy Russia's story?
If Russia intends equal consequences as revenge, I can imagine them wanting to stay with the 'fires sinking it'.

I just don't know if it's a black eye for Russia that's out of proportion to what would be expected?

I think that if we can take into consideration the immense consequences on winning or losing this war for both sides, (not ukraine) then nothing can be underestimated!

I'm not of any firm opinion on the Russian speaking people of the Donbass being so important? I lean heavily toward the territory being the issue for Russia, as it pertaiins to Russia being able to hold it's borders as the final red line.

This really is WW3 in my opinion!
The new sitzkreig so to speak.

As always Jo, thanks for your comments and opinions!

US forces there illegally by US deployment regulations. Look for more to come as the public and lawmakers finds out IMO.
Could be grounds for impeachment.

Perhaps Russia expected some loss...they used old tanks and obsolete armor for much of the first stage....stuff they were going to toss out anyway?

The resurgence of the Ruble is no small coincidence. It had to be planned and well in advance too.

So you're leaning towards the territorial imperative.....hmmm I'll have to reconsider that. Putin has a religious side though it certainly hides beneath his secular persona....some of that reading is fascinating let me tell you. Look at the articles from council on foreign affairs.

Yes I am ready to say it.
We have entered WW III.

Finally can we agree that the party wronged here most grievously by Russia, NATO and also the current Ukranian government is THE UKRANIAN PEOPLE themselves. They have been hoodwinked into thinking that this is a fight for freedom.


Jo

 

[Donald H]

US forces there illegally by US deployment regulations. Look for more to come as the public and lawmakers finds out IMO.
Could be grounds for impeachment.

o.k., I see the distinction for an American POV concerning legality. I was thinking only from the POV of war and the other side's actions against Americans in the ukraine. They have to be either American military or not. Wear the uniform without the cap badge or shoulder patches.

Perhaps Russia expected some loss...they used old tanks and obsolete armor for much of the first stage....stuff they were going to toss out anyway?

Perhaps. What is excessive losses fighting Ukrainians.

What are excessive losses fighting ukrainians and foreign mercenaries armed with the most modern weaponry.

What at the losses of the other side and what is excessive if it's WW3?

The resurgence of the Ruble is no small coincidence. It had to be planned and well in advance too.

Money markets appear to be closed today and I couldn't determine the Ruble/USD. The Ruble was down vs. USD on Thursday I believe.

So you're leaning towards the territorial imperative.....hmmm I'll have to reconsider that. Putin has a religious side though it certainly hides beneath his secular persona....some of that reading is fascinating let me tell you. Look at the articles from council on foreign affairs.

It's my guess. Too bad some of the kids and the no-minds are afraid of the discussion. We could get some opinions from the perspective of ignorance and arrogance at least!

Yes I am ready to say it.
We have entered WW III.

It has to be. The only thing missing is China but that's coming most likely.
In fact China is covertly in it already.

Finally can we agree that the party wronged here most grievously by Russia, NATO and also the current Ukranian government is THE UKRANIAN PEOPLE themselves. They have been hoodwinked into thinking that this is a fight for freedom.


Jo

Absolutely! But I still question Zelensky's and his military staff's motives.
How big is this neo-Nazi factor? Is it Putin's/Russia's bullshit or is it significant and real?
I'll admit that I don't know.

 

[Rogue AI]

Putin invaded, so that's on him. It didn't happen in a vacuum, there is plenty of blame to go around. There are no innocent parties in this.

 

[justoffal]

o.k., I see the distinction for an American POV concerning legality. I was thinking only from the POV of war and the other side's actions against Americans in the ukraine. They have to be either American military or not. Wear the uniform without the cap badge or shoulder patches.

Perhaps. What is excessive losses fighting Ukrainians.

What are excessive losses fighting ukrainians and foreign mercenaries armed with the most modern weaponry.

What at the losses of the other side and what is excessive if it's WW3?

Money markets appear to be closed today and I couldn't determine the Ruble/USD. The Ruble was down vs. USD on Thursday I believe.

It's my guess. Too bad some of the kids and the no-minds are afraid of the discussion. We could get some opinions from the perspective of ignorance and arrogance at least!


It has to be. The only thing missing is China but that's coming most likely.
In fact China is covertly in it already.

Absolutely! But I still question Zelensky's and his military staff's motives.
How big is this neo-Nazi factor? Is it Putin's/Russia's bullshit or is it significant and real?
I'll admit that I don't know.

It's time to start seeing the ruble not only as it is valued towards the US dollar but as it is also valued towards the newly organized money market that seems to be developing over in the east. I posit that the ruble is worth a lot more than we can see from the standpoint of the US dollar... And once Russia stops exchanging the ruble for the dollar I believe the ruble will skyrocket.

 

[Lesh]

The sock puppets are working overtime on this thread

JO
AL
Donald

All we need is Rigby and Mr. Beale and we'd have a full sock puppet hand

 

[justoffal]

The sock puppets are working overtime on this thread

JO
AL
Donald

All we need is Rigby and Mr. Beale and we'd have a full sock puppet hand

Actually I don't wear socks...

Jo

 

[Lesh]

Actually I don't wear socks...

Jo

Why bother...you am one

 

[Donald H]

It's time to start seeing the ruble not only as it is valued towards the US dollar but as it is also valued towards the newly organized money market that seems to be developing over in the east. I posit that the ruble is worth a lot more than we can see from the standpoint of the US dollar... And once Russia stops exchanging the ruble for the dollar I believe the ruble will skyrocket.

The USD is artificially inflated and it's not just the Ruble that will do better in comparison.

This is probably a good a place as any to point out that Ritter's predictions on Russia's strategy is playing out. You must have noticed by now.
But last night the media had even stepped up their talkiing point of Russia turning away from Kiev because they couldn't win and they were taking high losses.

Ritter's explanation became quite obviously correct with the taking of Mariupol and the diverionary tactics to creat other fronts for the Ukrainians to worry about.

Now we know why Russia moved 40 miles of tanks and artillery and then failed to put those assets into battle.

Let's just hope that Russia doesn't have ambitions for more of the Ukraine and peace can be possible.

 

[Donald H]

US forces there illegally by US deployment regulations. Look for more to come as the public and lawmakers finds out IMO.
Could be grounds for impeachment.

Perhaps Russia expected some loss...they used old tanks and obsolete armor for much of the first stage....stuff they were going to toss out anyway?

The resurgence of the Ruble is no small coincidence. It had to be planned and well in advance too.

So you're leaning towards the territorial imperative.....hmmm I'll have to reconsider that. Putin has a religious side though it certainly hides beneath his secular persona....some of that reading is fascinating let me tell you. Look at the articles from council on foreign affairs.

Yes I am ready to say it.
We have entered WW III.

Finally can we agree that the party wronged here most grievously by Russia, NATO and also the current Ukranian government is THE UKRANIAN PEOPLE themselves. They have been hoodwinked into thinking that this is a fight for freedom.


Jo

I'm revisiting this post of yours now because the explanation for why Russia used old equipment in their diversionary fronts is now obvious, from Ritter's explanation. Their taking of Mariupol was quick and decisive but that's not what they intended with Kiev. Kiev was hardly damaged but now with the mop up of Mariupol, they returned to Kiev to divert their enemy again.

Peace must come before too long and it really doesn't matter how it's achieved as much as it's important to end this war for the sake of the rest of the world.

 

[Richard-H]

US forces there illegally by US deployment regulations. Look for more to come as the public and lawmakers finds out IMO.
Could be grounds for impeachment.

Perhaps Russia expected some loss...they used old tanks and obsolete armor for much of the first stage....stuff they were going to toss out anyway?

The resurgence of the Ruble is no small coincidence. It had to be planned and well in advance too.

So you're leaning towards the territorial imperative.....hmmm I'll have to reconsider that. Putin has a religious side though it certainly hides beneath his secular persona....some of that reading is fascinating let me tell you. Look at the articles from council on foreign affairs.

Yes I am ready to say it.
We have entered WW III.

Finally can we agree that the party wronged here most grievously by Russia, NATO and also the current Ukranian government is THE UKRANIAN PEOPLE themselves. They have been hoodwinked into thinking that this is a fight for freedom.


Jo

WWIII? Nonsense!

NATO & Russia are no more at war than the U.S. and USSR were in Korea, Afghanistan & Vietnam. It's called a cold war - and God help the countries that let themselves be turned into the battleground.

The BIG difference is that the difference in power between NATO & Russia, and the U.S. versus the USSR is much, much greater.

Russia can only use it's oldest equipment because they have to keep their best equipment juxtapositioned against NATO & China. Meanwhile NATO has an abundance of state of the art anti-tank & anti-aircraft weapons that its sending to Ukraine.

NATO is sending just enough to ensure that Russia continues to send it's army into a meat grinder.

 

[Lesh]

I'm revisiting this post of yours now because the explanation for why Russia used old equipment in their diversionary fronts is now obvious, from Ritter's explanation. Their taking of Mariupol was quick and decisive but that's not what they intended with Kiev. Kiev was hardly damaged but now with the mop up of Mariupol, they returned to Kiev to divert their enemy again.

Peace must come before too long and it really doesn't matter how it's achieved as much as it's important to end this war for the sake of the rest of the world.

Sock Puppet alert

 

[Donald H]

WWIII? Nonsense!

NATO & Russia are no more at war than the U.S. and USSR were in Korea, Afghanistan & Vietnam. It's called a cold war - and God help the countries that let themselves be turned into the battleground.

The BIG difference is that the difference in power between NATO & Russia, and the U.S. versus the USSR is much, much greater.

Russia can only use it's oldest equipment because they have to keep their best equipment juxtapositioned against NATO & China. Meanwhile NATO has an abundance of state of the art anti-tank & anti-aircraft weapons that its sending to Ukraine.

NATO is sending just enough to ensure that Russia continues to send it's army into a meat grinder.

You misinterpreted what justoffal was saying.
He was replying to my submission that there are either mercenary soldiers or there are soldiers fighting under their country's flag.
Justoffal pointed out that there are American military personnell in the Ukraine on a covert basis, which he contends would be illegal.

The exaplanation on why Russia used old equipment was adequately explained by Scott Ritter when he explained the diversionary tactics used by Russia.

 

[Lesh]

You misinterpreted what justoffal was saying.
He was replying to my submission that there are either mercenary soldiers or there are soldiers fighting under their country's flag.
Justoffal pointed out that there are American military personnell in the Ukraine on a covert basis, which he contends would be illegal.

The exaplanation on why Russia used old equipment was adequately explained by Scott Ritter when he explained the diversionary tactics used by Russia.

Scott Ritter?

Even a sock puppet like you can do better than that

Jesus

And if NATO was actually at war with Russia they would have already gotten their dick knocked in the dirt

 

[justoffal]

I'm revisiting this post of yours now because the explanation for why Russia used old equipment in their diversionary fronts is now obvious, from Ritter's explanation. Their taking of Mariupol was quick and decisive but that's not what they intended with Kiev. Kiev was hardly damaged but now with the mop up of Mariupol, they returned to Kiev to divert their enemy again.

Peace must come before too long and it really doesn't matter how it's achieved as much as it's important to end this war for the sake of the rest of the world.

The Ukrainian conflict is a U.S./NATO Proxy War, but one which Russia is poised to win decisively – Scott Ritter | MR Online

The West has sown the wind in sanctioning Russia; Russia will not reap the whirlwind, says Scott Ritter in an interview with the Strategic Culture Foundation.

mronline.org

Yes....very informative thanks.

Jo

 

[Lesh]

Scott Ritter

In February 2005, writing on Al Jazeera's website, Ritter wrote that the "Iraqi resistance" is a "genuine grassroots national liberation movement," and "History will eventually depict as legitimate the efforts of the Iraqi resistance to destabilize and defeat the American occupation forces and their imposed Iraqi collaborationist government."[37] On December 20, 2005, in a debate with Christopher Hitchens at the Tarrytown Music Hall in Tarrytown, NY, Ritter said furthermore that he would "prefer to be an Iraqi under Saddam than an Iraqi under a brutal American occupation."[38]