My view on why our economy is pure shit.

[rightwinger]

Unrestrained capitalism got us into this mess. For decades we have been hearing "just free up the marketplace and watch it go"

Well, we did that....we gave the banks free reign, the markets were unrestricted

What we got was a near total collapse due to corporate greed

 

[Wry Catcher]

So, I have realized that since the Occupy movement, quite a few people do not understand capitalism. OWS was convinced that capitalism was the cause of their problems and personal failures. Unfortunately, they succumbed to mistaking capitalism for corporatism. If you do not know the difference, please google it. If you think corporatism is capitalism, you will seek government intervention in a way that surpasses corporatism, and that is socialism. These OWSers have it backwards, as do many of Americans.

Capitalism is not the problem, it is the solution. Capitalism has not existed for a century. How about we give it another shot? Get government out of the subsidy game, get government out of anything involving business. Government's only job is to regulate currency and they can't even get that right (see article 1 section 8).

Corporatism is not capitalism...and socialism is not the answer. Get the government out. Restore capitalism.

Thank you.

Wrong, but nice try. Unregulated Capitalism is the problem, not Capitalism per se. Getting government - that is in theory exists to represent the people; all of the people including CEO's, stockholders, working men and women and the poor, aged and disable - out of the way is one more slogan of the New Right which makes no sense.

If you want government out of the way vote for Rick Perry or the new iteration of(subject to change at any moment) Mitt Romney. Better yet, move to Somalia where personal freedom is never restricted by government, only those with a bigger gun can restrict your liberty.

Better to vote for the person who is not an extremist, and our nation can be set on the correct course. The correct course is one where the representative government sets priorities which benefit all of the people, not only those who 'donate' the most money.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Unrestrained capitalism got us into this mess. For decades we have been hearing "just free up the marketplace and watch it go"

Well, we did that....we gave the banks free reign, the markets were unrestricted

What we got was a near total collapse due to corporate greed

The banks had free rein? LOL!

They were free to redline? Or were they forced to make a certain percentage of loans in certain areas?

 

[samjones]

Mitt Romney has a lower effective tax rate than me.

You said the rich pay lower rates than the middle class. You both pay 15% on capital gains and dividends. Why is that making you sad?

but I do think it's awful that this amounts to welfare for the wealthy.

How? What was your effective rate?
He probably paid more taxes than you. How is that welfare?

See, I don't understand why you won't simply read what I wrote and comprehend my message. It's almost like you're going out of your way to try to misunderstand so instead of disagreeing with me you can instead just be belligerent by disagreeing with something that was never said. It's weird.

My effective tax rate is higher than Mitt Romney's. I don't know why you can't simply read that statement and then say whatever it is you have to say without making some inventing some baffling contradiction.

Qualified dividends should be taxed at a higher rater

When you include the 35% corporate rate, I'm sure that's much, much higher than the rate you pay.

But's that's not progressive. All people who receive those dividends still pay the same tax rate regardless of their ability to pay.

Tax law should operate on 2 fundamental principles.

1. People should be taxed based on their ability to pay
2. Tax law should be designed to maximize revenue.

A flat dividends rate achieves neither. Uncle Sam could get more revenue by taxing dividends for the rich at a higher rate and the rich can more easily afford it than a guy like me.

It's a twisted and corrupt piece of the tax code and it needs to be redone.

 

[samjones]

Capitalism can created a large middle class when managed to do so

I disagree. Any attempt to create a large middle class will be essentially socialist. The GI Bill, for instance. Or Pell grants. Or land grant colleges. These are not the machinations of Capitalism.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Unfettered capitalism created the era of the kings and queens.

Stupidity, thy name is Truthmatters.

No rules is what you want and they will do anything for profit.

You want this country handed over to the wealthy, WHY?

Run along now, and let the grown ups talk.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

47 posts later, and people are still confusing capitalism with corporatism/cronyism. This is why we walk in this circle. State craft divide and conquer - working brilliantly for a very, very long time.

Lets review our terminology and what it means.

Corporatism: the organization of a society into industrial and professional corporations serving as organs of political representation and exercising control over persons and activities within their jurisdiction.

Cronyism: partiality to cronies especially as evidenced in the appointment of political hangers-on to office without regard to their qualifications

Capitalism: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market


Since we have "political hangers-on", who work within government office and grant partiality, or special interest through lobbying within their "jurisdiction" and since we have no free market, but a centrally planned one through all of above as well as a central bank, WE DO NOT HAVE CAPITALISM HERE.

Calling what is happening capitalism is gross neglect of economic understanding.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Mitt Romney has a lower effective tax rate than me.

You said the rich pay lower rates than the middle class. You both pay 15% on capital gains and dividends. Why is that making you sad?

but I do think it's awful that this amounts to welfare for the wealthy.

How? What was your effective rate?
He probably paid more taxes than you. How is that welfare?

See, I don't understand why you won't simply read what I wrote and comprehend my message. It's almost like you're going out of your way to try to misunderstand so instead of disagreeing with me you can instead just be belligerent by disagreeing with something that was never said. It's weird.

My effective tax rate is higher than Mitt Romney's. I don't know why you can't simply read that statement and then say whatever it is you have to say without making some inventing some baffling contradiction.

Qualified dividends should be taxed at a higher rater

When you include the 35% corporate rate, I'm sure that's much, much higher than the rate you pay.

But's that's not progressive. All people who receive those dividends still pay the same tax rate regardless of their ability to pay.

Tax law should operate on 2 fundamental principles.

1. People should be taxed based on their ability to pay
2. Tax law should be designed to maximize revenue.

A flat dividends rate achieves neither. Uncle Sam could get more revenue by taxing dividends for the rich at a higher rate and the rich can more easily afford it than a guy like me.

It's a twisted and corrupt piece of the tax code and it needs to be redone.

My effective tax rate is higher than Mitt Romney's

His income is taxed at the same, or higher, rate as your income.

His capital gains and dividends are taxed at the same rate as yours.

My effective tax rate is higher than Mitt Romney's.

If your income is mostly salary and his is mostly dividends and capital gains, that makes sense. So what? Invest your money and you can get dividends too.

But's that's not progressive.

It's not progressive. It is nearly 50%.

People should be taxed based on their ability to pay

Da, comrade.

Tax law should be designed to maximize revenue

Another good reason to keep capital gains taxes at a low level.

 

[samjones]

My effective tax rate is higher than Mitt Romney's.

If your income is mostly salary and his is mostly dividends and capital gains, that makes sense. So what? Invest your money and you can get dividends too.

This is the "let them eat cake" mentality that the wealthy have. If you want to make more money they think you should just start a hedge fund.

They really are that out of touch.

It's not progressive. It is nearly 50%.

People should be taxed based on their ability to pay

Da, comrade.

It doesn't matter if the flat tax rate is 99%. That doesn't make it progressive. Maybe you should look up what progressivity means. I could buy a lower CGT for the less wealthy that would offset the higher CGT for the wealthier. I could buy a cut in corporate profit taxes to offset the higher CGT for the wealthy. What I cannot understand is this stupid, unsophisticate, utterly unfair flat tax for CGT (and, for the moment, for qualified dividends.) Something has to be done.

You may like the notion that taxes are designed to generate revenue, but that's what they're there for kid and the sooner you let that though sink in the better off you'll be. I don't see why they'd just give Mitt a pass on the millions they could collect from him simply by implementing a fairer approach to CGT.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

My effective tax rate is higher than Mitt Romney's.

If your income is mostly salary and his is mostly dividends and capital gains, that makes sense. So what? Invest your money and you can get dividends too.

This is the "let them eat cake" mentality that the wealthy have. If you want to make more money they think you should just start a hedge fund.

They really are that out of touch.

It's not progressive. It is nearly 50%.

People should be taxed based on their ability to pay

Da, comrade.

It doesn't matter if the flat tax rate is 99%. That doesn't make it progressive. Maybe you should look up what progressivity means. I could buy a lower CGT for the less wealthy that would offset the higher CGT for the wealthier. I could buy a cut in corporate profit taxes to offset the higher CGT for the wealthy. What I cannot understand is this stupid, unsophisticate, utterly unfair flat tax for CGT (and, for the moment, for qualified dividends.) Something has to be done.

You may like the notion that taxes are designed to generate revenue, but that's what they're there for kid and the sooner you let that though sink in the better off you'll be. I don't see why they'd just give Mitt a pass on the millions they could collect from him simply by implementing a fairer approach to CGT.

Cut corporate taxes to zero and tax dividends as ordinary income.
Why is the flat CGT unfair? Why does something have to be done?

You may like the notion that taxes are designed to generate revenue, but that's what they're there for kid

LOL! Okay, oldtimer, so when they raise the rate and the revenues decrease, then what? You'll admit your mistake? Or will you whine even more?

I don't see why they'd just give Mitt a pass on the millions they could collect from him simply by implementing a fairer approach to CGT.

Why don't they just kill him and take all the money, eh comrade?

 

[samjones]

Cut corporate taxes to zero and tax dividends as ordinary income.
Why is the flat CGT unfair? Why does something have to be done?

Or better yet, leave the coporate tax where it is and tax dividends as ordinary income. Or tax them higher than ordinary income. That's what's coming in 2013.

A flat CGT is unfair because it's not progressive and a wealthy professional stock trader can use this tax loophole ot pay lower effective tax rate than a middle class worker. That's why. Capice?

LOL! Okay, oldtimer, so when they raise the rate and the revenues decrease, then what? You'll admit your mistake? Or will you whine even more?

I will confess my folly to the first pig that flies by.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Cut corporate taxes to zero and tax dividends as ordinary income.
Why is the flat CGT unfair? Why does something have to be done?

Or better yet, leave the coporate tax where it is and tax dividends as ordinary income. Or tax them higher than ordinary income. That's what's coming in 2013.

A flat CGT is unfair because it's not progressive and a wealthy professional stock trader can use this tax loophole ot pay lower effective tax rate than a middle class worker. That's why. Capice?

LOL! Okay, oldtimer, so when they raise the rate and the revenues decrease, then what? You'll admit your mistake? Or will you whine even more?

I will confess my folly to the first pig that flies by.

A flat CGT is unfair because it's not progressive

Yeah, the Founders were all about fairness, that's why they put a progressive tax into place, right?

It's not fair that some have a higher IQ than others or that some are more successful than others. Let's drop everyone down to your level, just to make it fair.

I will confess my folly to the first pig that flies by.

No need to look for pigs, just see what happened to revenues the last time they raised the CG rate. Or what happened to them when they were cut after that.

But it sounds like you don't want the tax to collect revenue, just to punish those mean rich guys. Just to make it fair.

 

[Big Fitz]

No, I am for a flat tax percentage. One bracket with no exemptions or loopholes for anyone.

There you go.... you will never, ever, ever get that, so you are now entitled to whine all you want about how you aren't getting things your way.

Life is easier when you make impossible demands. You don't have to deal with the pesky details of compromise.

And I'm not getting that because people like you are blocking it, IIRC.

 

[samjones]

Yeah, the Founders were all about fairness, that's why they put a progressive tax into place, right?

It's not fair that some have a higher IQ than others or that some are more successful than others. Let's drop everyone down to your level, just to make it fair.

Nope - I'm not opposed to making money. I think that every American is born with the right to make as much as he can. I just don't see why people who make more should be entitled to pay a lower percentage. That's nuts.

You got any cites about what the founding fathers had to say about progressive taxation? Or do you simply feel entitled to speak on their behalf?

No need to look for pigs, just see what happened to revenues the last time they raised the CG rate. Or what happened to them when they were cut after that.

But it sounds like you don't want the tax to collect revenue, just to punish those mean rich guys. Just to make it fair.

I don't even meant to be expressing an opinion about whether the raise or lower the CGT rate. Just build some progressivity into it. The 2 are mutually exclusive concepts.

And listen to me, Kid. *EVERYBODY* feels punished by taxation. *EVERYBODY*. The rich, the working poor, and especially the middle class. Waah ******* waah if the rich feel so put upon because they have to pay their fair share - which I assure you is more than 15%. They're just going to have to tough it out.

They're bitching and moaning because a reasonable tax increase is "class warfare"? Perhaps one day they'll learn what real class warfare is.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yeah, the Founders were all about fairness, that's why they put a progressive tax into place, right?

It's not fair that some have a higher IQ than others or that some are more successful than others. Let's drop everyone down to your level, just to make it fair.

Nope - I'm not opposed to making money. I think that every American is born with the right to make as much as he can. I just don't see why people who make more should be entitled to pay a lower percentage. That's nuts.

You got any cites about what the founding fathers had to say about progressive taxation? Or do you simply feel entitled to speak on their behalf?

No need to look for pigs, just see what happened to revenues the last time they raised the CG rate. Or what happened to them when they were cut after that.

But it sounds like you don't want the tax to collect revenue, just to punish those mean rich guys. Just to make it fair.

I don't even meant to be expressing an opinion about whether the raise or lower the CGT rate. Just build some progressivity into it. The 2 are mutually exclusive concepts.

And listen to me, Kid. *EVERYBODY* feels punished by taxation. *EVERYBODY*. The rich, the working poor, and especially the middle class. Waah ******* waah if the rich feel so put upon because they have to pay their fair share - which I assure you is more than 15%. They're just going to have to tough it out.

They're bitching and moaning because a reasonable tax increase is "class warfare"? Perhaps one day they'll learn what real class warfare is.

I already explained that Romney (and other nasty rich people) don't pay lower rates than you.

You can look here.

Tax Tables / Tax Bracket Rates

I already explained that Romney pays the same rate on cap gains and dividends as you.
It's not my fault that Romney saved more and therefore has more dividends than you.

Yes, I have a cite about the Founders and taxes. Would you like to see it?
Were you unaware of their feelings in the area?

Perhaps one day they'll learn what real class warfare is.

Ohhh, please explain further. Sounds exciting!

 

[samjones]

I already explained that Romney (and other nasty rich people) don't pay lower rates than you.

More bafflement bullshit. You already know that we were talking about effective tax rate because you used the term yourself and seemed to comprehend what it meant, but now you seem to be forgetting what we were talking about because you think you're somehow winning by being confused and difficult.

It's ******* weird. You already read what I said no more than one hour ago. Don't start acting now like you can't maintain a simple train of thought. My effective tax rate is more than what Mitt Romney claims his is.

Yes, I have a cite about the Founders and taxes. Would you like to see it?
Were you unaware of their feelings in the area?

Is this going to be quotes about progressivity in tax rates and the mandate that all should pay according to their means? Or is this just going to be a bunch of nonresponsive crap? I don't want the nonresponsive crap.

 

[kwc57]

Unfettered capitalism created the era of the kings and queens.

No, thta was called "feudalism". No shit. We learned it in 9th grade Western Civ.

Look, this is America and as far as I'm concerned every person is born with the right to make as much money as he or she possibly can.

I don't see why the banks have a right to knowingly misrepresent the values of the homes that they lend us money to buy. It's almost like going to roulette table and offering to lend a guy money to gamble based on how much the guy next to him won in the last hour.

We are smarter than that, no?

Now you're making shit up. Banks did not misrepresent the value of homes. The government forced them to lower their lending standards and make loans to people wh owould not normally qualify. The government told the banks not to worry, they would back the risky loans. See what happens when government meddles in business? I've worked in banking for 30+ years and let me educate you, banks would prefer to tighten their lending practices to much lower risks than government regulations force them to lend to.......to be "fair".

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I already explained that Romney (and other nasty rich people) don't pay lower rates than you.

More bafflement bullshit. You already know that we were talking about effective tax rate because you used the term yourself and seemed to comprehend what it meant, but now you seem to be forgetting what we were talking about because you think you're somehow winning by being confused and difficult.

It's ******* weird. You already read what I said no more than one hour ago. Don't start acting now like you can't maintain a simple train of thought. My effective tax rate is more than what Mitt Romney claims his is.

Yes, I have a cite about the Founders and taxes. Would you like to see it?
Were you unaware of their feelings in the area?

Is this going to be quotes about progressivity in tax rates and the mandate that all should pay according to their means? Or is this just going to be a bunch of nonresponsive crap? I don't want the nonresponsive crap.

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers......

(No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.)

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I already explained that Romney (and other nasty rich people) don't pay lower rates than you.

More bafflement bullshit. You already know that we were talking about effective tax rate because you used the term yourself and seemed to comprehend what it meant, but now you seem to be forgetting what we were talking about because you think you're somehow winning by being confused and difficult.

It's ******* weird. You already read what I said no more than one hour ago. Don't start acting now like you can't maintain a simple train of thought. My effective tax rate is more than what Mitt Romney claims his is.

I just don't see why people who make more should be entitled to pay a lower percentage. That's nuts.

Your claim that they do is nuts. As I keep explaining.

 

[kwc57]

Unrestrained capitalism got us into this mess. For decades we have been hearing "just free up the marketplace and watch it go"

Well, we did that....we gave the banks free reign, the markets were unrestricted

What we got was a near total collapse due to corporate greed

No, no we didn't. You have absolutely no inkling how much regulation the banking industry has been under. I do because I've dealt with it and watched it grow over the 30+ years I've been in banking.

Here's a short list of the bank regs that your local bank sitting o nthe street corner has to comply with or face heavy fines. There are tons more than this.

BANKING REGULATIONS: REG: A B C D E F H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U X Y Z AA BB CC DD EE etc