CDZ My child's right to a safe school versus your right to guns

[JakeStarkey]

Marty has code words, too, that mean "You are beating my arguments and I can't counter effectively."

 

[martybegan]

Goofy libertarian philosophy is just that . . . goofy.

And yet you do nothing to actually counter any of the points. You just respond with your typical non-response.

All of your points have been countered effectively over the years, but go ahead and post.

And to all of you gun huggers: we are not asking for gun confiscation, but only reasonable restrictions on certain weirdos.

No, you are asking for blanket restrictions that will do nothing to help the situation, but will only encourage you towards your final goal, which is the banning of gun ownership my private citizens.

I have asked this before, why should I trust ANY gun control advocate who can't admit NYC's law is infringement, where it takes 3-6 months of waiting, and $600 or so in fees just to get home use license for a revolver?

Get NYC's law changed then we can talk.

 

[martybegan]

Marty has code words, too, that mean "You are beating my arguments and I can't counter effectively."

Not even Close Jake. all you have is tired progressive talking points, and your continued resorting to claiming you were a Republican at one time.

That's it, nothing of any substance.

 

[2aguy]

Goofy libertarian philosophy is just that . . . goofy.

And yet you do nothing to actually counter any of the points. You just respond with your typical non-response.

All of your points have been countered effectively over the years, but go ahead and post.

And to all of you gun huggers: we are not asking for gun confiscation, but only reasonable restrictions on certain weirdos.

Sorry.....every time you say you just want "reasonable restrictions" you lie, and end up taking more and more from normal gun owners...with nothing to show for it other than law abiding citizens who have a tougher time exercising a Right.

 

[2aguy]

My child has a constitutional right to go to school safely. I believe that outweighs a nut case's right to own and bear guns.

We need to find a way to break that access link between a nut and a gun.

We need to identify the first problem, which is

Where does the constitution say that?

In the combined mission statement and vision statement described in The Preamble, and, in Art I, sec 8 clause 1.

My child has a constitutional right to go to school safely. I believe that outweighs a nut case's right to own and bear guns.

We need to find a way to break that access link between a nut and a gun.

We need to identify the first problem, which is

Where does the constitution say that?

In the combined mission statement and vision statement, described in The Preamble, and, in Art I, sec 8 clause 1. Both give the Congress the authority to provide for the Common Defense, and general welfare.

Nice try, but if you agree with that then you basically admit that the Constitution can be interpreted anyway 5 of 9 un-elected lawyers feel it should be, and that is basically legal anarchy.

The genius of COTUS is its ambiguity, for it allows each new generation to read it clearly and with hindsight. The R's have packed the courts, but they also packed school boards decades ago with religious fanatics and soon We the People tossed them out.

Now, with lifetime appointments we are stuck with judges and justices who have taken the blindfold off of lady justice, and use scripture in place of justice and the law. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", but five Supreme Court Justices not elected by the people, and the only triers of fact without a code of conduct, are able to do so.

You don't know what you are talking about........in particular the 9th and 4th circuit courts of appeal are left wing looney bins...

 

[JakeStarkey]

2aguy continues to use code words to hide that he wants everyone to have guns when, in fact, everyone should not have guns.

Reasonable restrictions do not mean gun bans and confiscations.

Only an unAmerican would think so.

 

[martybegan]

2aguy continues to use code words to hide that he wants everyone to have guns when, in fact, everyone should not have guns.

Reasonable restrictions do not mean gun bans and confiscations.

Only an unAmerican would think so.

your side lies so much we can't trust anything you say. Remember that whole "18 school shootings this year" trope that was debunked?

 

[Skull Pilot]

2aguy continues to use code words to hide that he wants everyone to have guns when, in fact, everyone should not have guns.

Reasonable restrictions do not mean gun bans and confiscations.

Only an unAmerican would think so.

We already have reasonable restrictions.

The mentally ill and convicted felons are prohibited from owning firearms

 

[2aguy]

2aguy continues to use code words to hide that he wants everyone to have guns when, in fact, everyone should not have guns.

Reasonable restrictions do not mean gun bans and confiscations.

Only an unAmerican would think so.

Yes...they do...each step leads to the next step because each thing you propose does not stop criminals or mass shooters from getting guns....so each time you pass a pointless gun law, and it fails, you demand another gun law, that fails, so you demand another one.....

The only thing that will stop gun crime and gun murder......a 30 year sentence.....a life sentence if the gun is fired.

For mass shooters....we need to get rid of gun free zones, and encourage the people who know these nuts to report these nuts...that is the only way with mass shooters.......

 

[JakeStarkey]

2aguy continues to use code words to hide that he wants everyone to have guns when, in fact, everyone should not have guns.

Reasonable restrictions do not mean gun bans and confiscations.

Only an unAmerican would think so.

We already have reasonable restrictions.

The mentally ill and convicted felons are prohibited from owning firearms

Apparently we don't is the point, S P.

 

[JakeStarkey]

2aguy continues to say that "Reasonable restrictions do not mean gun bans and confiscations." do actually mean gun bans and confiscations. Foolish logic. By his ilk refusing to be part of a sensible solution, they are going to end up with a result that will horrify the gun bunnies.

 

[JakeStarkey]

 

[2aguy]

No....that is in case you need 30 bullets to stop violent criminals....when your life or the life of your family depends on stopping one or more violent attackers who likely will be armed with the same 30 round magazine....since they will ignore any ban on magazines......while you will likely obey it......

And we do not tell the Fire Department they can only use 100 gallons of water to put out a house fire...they get all the water they may need........

Actual research on magazine bans...

SSRN Electronic Library

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

 

[ChrisL]

Nobody wants to see kids being killed but the fact of the matter is that safety is not a "right" in this country or anywhere else for that matter. Nobody can guarantee your safety. That is a fantasy and nothing more.

 

[TroglocratsRdumb]

My child has a constitutional right to go to school safely. I believe that outweighs a nut case's right to own and bear guns.

We need to find a way to break that access link between a nut and a gun.

We need to identify the first problem, which is

dumb

 

[2aguy]

How about two criminals shooting at you....40 rounds fired....3 attackers.....the homeowner hit all 3, they didn't hit him....

AR-15 rifle used to stop the attackers.....

Homeowner shoots at drive-by suspects, killing 2

Two people are dead and one is in the hospital after a homeowner fired back during a shooting in North Houston.

Investigators say early Saturday morning a suspect vehicle drove up to the homeowner's house on Glenburnie Drive and started shooting.

The homeowner was outside at the time and he hid behind a bush in the yard and returned fire. Officers say more than 40 shots were fired in the exchange.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Was the shootings gang related? Or far right retarded guy shooting? I could care less if they whack each other.

 

[hadit]

My child has a constitutional right to go to school safely. I believe that outweighs a nut case's right to own and bear guns.

We need to find a way to break that access link between a nut and a gun.

We need to identify the first problem, which is

Where does the constitution say that?

In the combined mission statement and vision statement described in The Preamble, and, in Art I, sec 8 clause 1.

My child has a constitutional right to go to school safely. I believe that outweighs a nut case's right to own and bear guns.

We need to find a way to break that access link between a nut and a gun.

We need to identify the first problem, which is

Where does the constitution say that?

In the combined mission statement and vision statement, described in The Preamble, and, in Art I, sec 8 clause 1. Both give the Congress the authority to provide for the Common Defense, and general welfare.

Nice try, but if you agree with that then you basically admit that the Constitution can be interpreted anyway 5 of 9 un-elected lawyers feel it should be, and that is basically legal anarchy.

The genius of COTUS is its ambiguity, for it allows each new generation to read it clearly and with hindsight. The R's have packed the courts, but they also packed school boards decades ago with religious fanatics and soon We the People tossed them out.

Now, with lifetime appointments we are stuck with judges and justices who have taken the blindfold off of lady justice, and use scripture in place of justice and the law. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", but five Supreme Court Justices not elected by the people, and the only triers of fact without a code of conduct, are able to do so.

Where have they done that?

 

[Skull Pilot]

2aguy continues to use code words to hide that he wants everyone to have guns when, in fact, everyone should not have guns.

Reasonable restrictions do not mean gun bans and confiscations.

Only an unAmerican would think so.

We already have reasonable restrictions.

The mentally ill and convicted felons are prohibited from owning firearms

Apparently we don't is the point, S P.

You think we don't.
I disagree

 

[ChrisL]

How about two criminals shooting at you....40 rounds fired....3 attackers.....the homeowner hit all 3, they didn't hit him....

AR-15 rifle used to stop the attackers.....

Homeowner shoots at drive-by suspects, killing 2

Two people are dead and one is in the hospital after a homeowner fired back during a shooting in North Houston.

Investigators say early Saturday morning a suspect vehicle drove up to the homeowner's house on Glenburnie Drive and started shooting.

The homeowner was outside at the time and he hid behind a bush in the yard and returned fire. Officers say more than 40 shots were fired in the exchange.

I think it's pretty obvious that they don't care about lives. It is their agenda that means something to them.