MW advocates - what are the downsides of minimum wage?

[Asclepias]

So how does rasing minimum wage help?

If MW were raised to $11 an hour , welfare use would drop by at least 15% by most studies. That's a pretty good savings of tax dollars.

How much will inflation go up after they have to give me and every other worker above minimum wage another $4.00 an hour raise to keep my pay in line?

How silly. First of all, sorry you're only earning minimum wage, second of all, a small portion of wage earners are and would thus receive a $4 an hour raise. Most people are already around the $9-10 range (lower end workers we're talking about) and thus would receive at most a $2 an hour raise, and that is if we immediately raised it to the correct level, which I haven't advocated.

So people making $9 an hour would get a raise to make minimum wage


.

The ripple effect would be huge. Everyone making $11-$12/hr, for instance, would also demand a raise because all of a sudden they would only be making a little above minimum and all their skill, training and experience wouldn't get them much more than a guy of the street sweeping floors. Many pharmacy techs, for example, make $10-$12/hr, have to be trained and licensed, and we trust them with our medications.

Thats demonstrably false. People get paid just enough not quit right now and they dont demand a raise because someone else will gladly take their job.

 

[Asclepias]

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

And neither compensates a business owner for increased labor costs. Not even sure why you brought it up. It's irrelevant.

So you are seriously claiming that if a business owner has to pay say 400k in wages for his employees and gets to write it off thats not compensation? Have you been drug tested recently?

Yeah, it doesn't work that way. Do you do your own taxes?

Nope. My accountant does it and I write off my employees wages.

 

[Asclepias]

Cool. So what is the problem with raising MW if the wages are a tax write off for the business? Everyone keeps saying its an expense the businesses have to eat.

Deduction not write off...similar but definitely not the same.

Whats the difference? Both reduce your taxable income. Matter of fact I use the two interchangeably.

And neither compensates a business owner for increased labor costs. Not even sure why you brought it up. It's irrelevant.

the increased "tax write off" does that.

Christ sake, one more time, it's a deduction not a write off.

A deduction and a write off is the exact same thing. I think youre getting a write off mixed up with a tax credit.

What is the difference between a write-off and a deduction?

"There is no difference between a tax write-off and a tax deduction. It's possible that the confusion arises between a tax credit and a tax deduction; a credit subtracts an amount from a person's tax liabilities, while a deduction is a qualifying expense that reduces the amount of income that can be taxed."

 

[candycorn]

If MW were raised to $11 an hour , welfare use would drop by at least 15% by most studies. That's a pretty good savings of tax dollars.

How much will inflation go up after they have to give me and every other worker above minimum wage another $4.00 an hour raise to keep my pay in line?

How silly. First of all, sorry you're only earning minimum wage, second of all, a small portion of wage earners are and would thus receive a $4 an hour raise. Most people are already around the $9-10 range (lower end workers we're talking about) and thus would receive at most a $2 an hour raise, and that is if we immediately raised it to the correct level, which I haven't advocated.

So people making $9 an hour would get a raise to make minimum wage


.

The ripple effect would be huge. Everyone making $11-$12/hr, for instance, would also demand a raise because all of a sudden they would only be making a little above minimum and all their skill, training and experience wouldn't get them much more than a guy of the street sweeping floors. Many pharmacy techs, for example, make $10-$12/hr, have to be trained and licensed, and we trust them with our medications.

Thats demonstrably false. People get paid just enough not quit right now and they dont demand a raise because someone else will gladly take their job.

Correct.

Many people have little to no idea how much their co-workers make. Even more don't care. If I'm happy at my job and my wage, someone else getting a raise doesn't bother me one bit.

 

[Asclepias]

Yea you want it to feel good.

Yet instead of paying $1 buck for a coke you now pay $1.28.


.

It's not about "feel good", it's about avoiding electoral revolution.
.

So it's throwing peanuts out .

Yea that's what I thought.

From your perspective, sure.
.

So you want to pay more money for a steak and why?


Because it makes you feel good?


You do know their is a tip box on your recipt right?


*Shrugs*


You can give your server what ever you like



.

Is this really as deep as this conversation is going to get?

If so, never mind.
.

I just want Bear to explain what he means by the MW being zero. Does anyone else know what he is talking about?

 

[Wyatt earp]

If raising the minimum wage actually caused unemployment and inflation, if be against it too. But it doesn't.

How do you figure that? Say you raise the M-Wage, do you believe that employers will just eat the higher labor costs? Some might, depending on the location and circumstances. But some won't, or can't, because the business becomes too unprofitable. You get that, right?

..... So, maybe some of you advocates for the higher M-Wage can explain how and why the above scenarios are wrong. I mean, we're talking basic economics here, it isn't rocket science.

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

Not if you raise it for everyone , god you have no common sense do you?

 

[Wyatt earp]

You stupid moron



You can raise minimum wage up to 10 million dollars a year..and they would still qualify for walfare..

How would that exactly work?

Minimum wage is just a number and it's zero.


.

 

[Wyatt earp]

The market will adjust after a minimum wage increase

Always has

That's how I've always seen it. But the adjust period can be painful, and you end up right back where you started. So, what's the point?

You do?

Prove that, please.

Uhm the left wants the national minimum wage raised again?

Need anymore proof?

 

[Asclepias]

If raising the minimum wage actually caused unemployment and inflation, if be against it too. But it doesn't.

How do you figure that? Say you raise the M-Wage, do you believe that employers will just eat the higher labor costs? Some might, depending on the location and circumstances. But some won't, or can't, because the business becomes too unprofitable. You get that, right?

..... So, maybe some of you advocates for the higher M-Wage can explain how and why the above scenarios are wrong. I mean, we're talking basic economics here, it isn't rocket science.

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

Not if you raise it for everyone , god you have no common sense do you?

You dont have to give everyone a raise because you raise MW. Thats needeless conjecture.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Yes, and you are obviously a complete moron.

So anyone who understands basic math is a complete moron?

So when are you going to learn basic math?


.

 

[Wyatt earp]

It's not about "feel good", it's about avoiding electoral revolution.
.

So it's throwing peanuts out .

Yea that's what I thought.

From your perspective, sure.
.

So you want to pay more money for a steak and why?


Because it makes you feel good?


You do know their is a tip box on your recipt right?


*Shrugs*


You can give your server what ever you like



.

Is this really as deep as this conversation is going to get?

If so, never mind.
.

I just want Bear to explain what he means by the MW being zero. Does anyone else know what he is talking about?

This is something you can never comprehend can you? That's why we say no matter what the national minimum wage is, it's always ground zero



New Zealand national minimum wage $17 an hour and people are still on food stamps




New Zealand's 'working poor' and the push to understand how many are struggling

Unemployment is at its lowest in a decade - at 4.4 per cent in March - but wage growth has stagnated.

So you can get a job, but it might not pay the bills. Sitting between employment rates and wage statistics are the working poor - employed, but doing it hard.

With the political spotlight on poverty, a Government-backed study wants to answer the question: who are the working poor?

ANDY JACKSON/STUFF
Some families are still struggling to provide for their children, despite being in fulltime work, or having several jobs. (File photo)
Ask Joanna, 49, who has been behind the counter at a major New Zealand retailer for almost 20 years.

Stuff has withheld her last name, and that of her employer, for privacy reasons.

It takes Joanna around 40 hours at $20.40 an hour - $4 above the minimum wage - to earn the week's rent.

Her $550 weekly pay cheque - after tax, KiwiSaver, union fees, and $20 tucked away for Christmas - is practically gone before it's in her hand.

A $70 accommodation supplement from Work and Income helps - it has just gone up from $40 - but it still won't cover the bills.

"I have to reapply for it every three months, which is insulting, I work bloody fulltime."

And it won't feed her two boys, who are at university. They each pay board of $140 a week, which helps put food on the table and keeps the lights on.

"They couldn't afford to pay more, because they're struggling students

 

[Asclepias]

So it's throwing peanuts out .

Yea that's what I thought.

From your perspective, sure.
.

So you want to pay more money for a steak and why?


Because it makes you feel good?


You do know their is a tip box on your recipt right?


*Shrugs*


You can give your server what ever you like



.

Is this really as deep as this conversation is going to get?

If so, never mind.
.

I just want Bear to explain what he means by the MW being zero. Does anyone else know what he is talking about?

This is something you can never comprehend can you? That's why we say no matter what the national minimum wage is, it's always ground zero



New Zealand national minimum wage $17 an hour .




New Zealand's 'working poor' and the push to understand how many are struggling

Unemployment is at its lowest in a decade - at 4.4 per cent in March - but wage growth has stagnated.

So you can get a job, but it might not pay the bills. Sitting between employment rates and wage statistics are the working poor - employed, but doing it hard.

With the political spotlight on poverty, a Government-backed study wants to answer the question: who are the working poor?

ANDY JACKSON/STUFF
Some families are still struggling to provide for their children, despite being in fulltime work, or having several jobs. (File photo)
Ask Joanna, 49, who has been behind the counter at a major New Zealand retailer for almost 20 years.

Stuff has withheld her last name, and that of her employer, for privacy reasons.

It takes Joanna around 40 hours at $20.40 an hour - $4 above the minimum wage - to earn the week's rent.

Her $550 weekly pay cheque - after tax, KiwiSaver, union fees, and $20 tucked away for Christmas - is practically gone before it's in her hand.

A $70 accommodation supplement from Work and Income helps - it has just gone up from $40 - but it still won't cover the bills.

"I have to reapply for it every three months, which is insulting, I work bloody fulltime."

And it won't feed her two boys, who are at university. They each pay board of $140 a week, which helps put food on the table and keeps the lights on.

"They couldn't afford to pay more, because they're struggling students

That doesnt explain why you say that MW is always zero. What you are doing is taking an economic phenomenon that occurs in cycles and claiming its because of MW being $17/hr. Besides paying for food for someone in college is not a necessity because college is not a necessity. Dont give me a link. Tell me from your understanding why you say MW is always zero.

 

[Wyatt earp]

OTE="Asclepias, post: 21300138, member: 44774"]

If raising the minimum wage actually caused unemployment and inflation, if be against it too. But it doesn't.

How do you figure that? Say you raise the M-Wage, do you believe that employers will just eat the higher labor costs? Some might, depending on the location and circumstances. But some won't, or can't, because the business becomes too unprofitable. You get that, right?

..... So, maybe some of you advocates for the higher M-Wage can explain how and why the above scenarios are wrong. I mean, we're talking basic economics here, it isn't rocket science.

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

Not if you raise it for everyone , god you have no common sense do you?

You dont have to give everyone a raise because you raise MW. Thats needeless conjecture.[/QUOTE]



I didn't say that, I said no one gets ahead if everyone gets a raise and once again people making $8 to $15 are getting fucked up the ass if the national minimum wage is raised to $15..

They spent all that time trying to get ahead only to realize they now make minimum wage .



.

 

[Wyatt earp]

From your perspective, sure.
.

So you want to pay more money for a steak and why?


Because it makes you feel good?


You do know their is a tip box on your recipt right?


*Shrugs*


You can give your server what ever you like



.

Is this really as deep as this conversation is going to get?

If so, never mind.
.

I just want Bear to explain what he means by the MW being zero. Does anyone else know what he is talking about?

This is something you can never comprehend can you? That's why we say no matter what the national minimum wage is, it's always ground zero



New Zealand national minimum wage $17 an hour .




New Zealand's 'working poor' and the push to understand how many are struggling

Unemployment is at its lowest in a decade - at 4.4 per cent in March - but wage growth has stagnated.

So you can get a job, but it might not pay the bills. Sitting between employment rates and wage statistics are the working poor - employed, but doing it hard.

With the political spotlight on poverty, a Government-backed study wants to answer the question: who are the working poor?

ANDY JACKSON/STUFF
Some families are still struggling to provide for their children, despite being in fulltime work, or having several jobs. (File photo)
Ask Joanna, 49, who has been behind the counter at a major New Zealand retailer for almost 20 years.

Stuff has withheld her last name, and that of her employer, for privacy reasons.

It takes Joanna around 40 hours at $20.40 an hour - $4 above the minimum wage - to earn the week's rent.

Her $550 weekly pay cheque - after tax, KiwiSaver, union fees, and $20 tucked away for Christmas - is practically gone before it's in her hand.

A $70 accommodation supplement from Work and Income helps - it has just gone up from $40 - but it still won't cover the bills.

"I have to reapply for it every three months, which is insulting, I work bloody fulltime."

And it won't feed her two boys, who are at university. They each pay board of $140 a week, which helps put food on the table and keeps the lights on.

"They couldn't afford to pay more, because they're struggling students

That doesnt explain why you say that MW is always zero. What you are doing is taking an economic phenomenon that occurs in cycles and claiming its because of MW being $17/hr. Besides paying for food for someone in college is not a necessity because college is not a necessity. Dont give me a link. Tell me from your understanding why you say MW is always zero.

I thought you said raising minimum wage takes people off of the government?


I just proved it false by using New Zealand high minimum wage as an example .



Once again no matter where you peg minimum wage at it's still Zero.

 

[Asclepias]

OTE="Asclepias, post: 21300138, member: 44774"]

If raising the minimum wage actually caused unemployment and inflation, if be against it too. But it doesn't.

How do you figure that? Say you raise the M-Wage, do you believe that employers will just eat the higher labor costs? Some might, depending on the location and circumstances. But some won't, or can't, because the business becomes too unprofitable. You get that, right?

..... So, maybe some of you advocates for the higher M-Wage can explain how and why the above scenarios are wrong. I mean, we're talking basic economics here, it isn't rocket science.

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

Not if you raise it for everyone , god you have no common sense do you?

You dont have to give everyone a raise because you raise MW. Thats needeless conjecture.

I didn't say that, I said no one gets ahead if everyone gets a raise and once again people making $8 to $15 are getting fucked up the ass if the national minimum wage is raised to $15..

They spent all that time trying to get ahead only to realize they now make minimum wage .



.[/QUOTE]
I think they will be happy they can afford to pay their necessities and work harder to go up in wages.

 

[Wyatt earp]

You think you can put minimum wage up so high that it can out beat prices .


Lol it's the tail wagging the dog.

 

[Asclepias]

So you want to pay more money for a steak and why?


Because it makes you feel good?


You do know their is a tip box on your recipt right?


*Shrugs*


You can give your server what ever you like



.

Is this really as deep as this conversation is going to get?

If so, never mind.
.

I just want Bear to explain what he means by the MW being zero. Does anyone else know what he is talking about?

This is something you can never comprehend can you? That's why we say no matter what the national minimum wage is, it's always ground zero



New Zealand national minimum wage $17 an hour .




New Zealand's 'working poor' and the push to understand how many are struggling

Unemployment is at its lowest in a decade - at 4.4 per cent in March - but wage growth has stagnated.

So you can get a job, but it might not pay the bills. Sitting between employment rates and wage statistics are the working poor - employed, but doing it hard.

With the political spotlight on poverty, a Government-backed study wants to answer the question: who are the working poor?

ANDY JACKSON/STUFF
Some families are still struggling to provide for their children, despite being in fulltime work, or having several jobs. (File photo)
Ask Joanna, 49, who has been behind the counter at a major New Zealand retailer for almost 20 years.

Stuff has withheld her last name, and that of her employer, for privacy reasons.

It takes Joanna around 40 hours at $20.40 an hour - $4 above the minimum wage - to earn the week's rent.

Her $550 weekly pay cheque - after tax, KiwiSaver, union fees, and $20 tucked away for Christmas - is practically gone before it's in her hand.

A $70 accommodation supplement from Work and Income helps - it has just gone up from $40 - but it still won't cover the bills.

"I have to reapply for it every three months, which is insulting, I work bloody fulltime."

And it won't feed her two boys, who are at university. They each pay board of $140 a week, which helps put food on the table and keeps the lights on.

"They couldn't afford to pay more, because they're struggling students

That doesnt explain why you say that MW is always zero. What you are doing is taking an economic phenomenon that occurs in cycles and claiming its because of MW being $17/hr. Besides paying for food for someone in college is not a necessity because college is not a necessity. Dont give me a link. Tell me from your understanding why you say MW is always zero.

I thought you said raising minimum wage takes people off of the government?


I just proved it false by using New Zealand high minimum wage as an example .



Once again no matter where you peg minimum wage at it's still Zero.

I didnt say that but I agree. If your minimum wage pays the necessities you dont qualify for welfare.

No you didnt prove anything which is why I asked you to explain what you meant.

 

[Wyatt earp]

OTE="Asclepias, post: 21300138, member: 44774"]

How do you figure that? Say you raise the M-Wage, do you believe that employers will just eat the higher labor costs? Some might, depending on the location and circumstances. But some won't, or can't, because the business becomes too unprofitable. You get that, right?

..... So, maybe some of you advocates for the higher M-Wage can explain how and why the above scenarios are wrong. I mean, we're talking basic economics here, it isn't rocket science.

I think most of them do get it, but the rules of partisan debate forbid them admitting any tradeoffs, any downside, any weakness to their favored policies. And if they're following those "debate" rules, you'll never get an honest answer out of them. They'll dodge, juke, jive and lie their asses off - anything but face reality.

Moronic argument. Your stated downside is unsubstantiated. You are asking others to make your argument for you.

Paying people enough to live on is a straight up win win for everyone. Long term win for businesses and taxpayers. Income inequality is a loser for everyone.

It is what it is.

Not if you raise it for everyone , god you have no common sense do you?

You dont have to give everyone a raise because you raise MW. Thats needeless conjecture.

I didn't say that, I said no one gets ahead if everyone gets a raise and once again people making $8 to $15 are getting fucked up the ass if the national minimum wage is raised to $15..

They spent all that time trying to get ahead only to realize they now make minimum wage .



.

I think they will be happy they can afford to pay their necessities and work harder to go up in wages.[/QUOTE]


Again look at new Zealand which you refuse to acknowledge. More money doesn't equal more wealth if you have to pay more for a bag of Doritos .


.

 

[Asclepias]

You think you can put minimum wage up so high that it can out beat prices .


Lol it's the tail wagging the dog.

I thought thats what you meant but I wasnt sure. Anyone that raises their prices gets charged with price gouging and a lengthy prison fine. If you sold a bar of soap for a $1 yesterday you better not raise the price because of MW going up.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Is this really as deep as this conversation is going to get?

If so, never mind.
.

I just want Bear to explain what he means by the MW being zero. Does anyone else know what he is talking about?

This is something you can never comprehend can you? That's why we say no matter what the national minimum wage is, it's always ground zero



New Zealand national minimum wage $17 an hour .




New Zealand's 'working poor' and the push to understand how many are struggling

Unemployment is at its lowest in a decade - at 4.4 per cent in March - but wage growth has stagnated.

So you can get a job, but it might not pay the bills. Sitting between employment rates and wage statistics are the working poor - employed, but doing it hard.

With the political spotlight on poverty, a Government-backed study wants to answer the question: who are the working poor?

ANDY JACKSON/STUFF
Some families are still struggling to provide for their children, despite being in fulltime work, or having several jobs. (File photo)
Ask Joanna, 49, who has been behind the counter at a major New Zealand retailer for almost 20 years.

Stuff has withheld her last name, and that of her employer, for privacy reasons.

It takes Joanna around 40 hours at $20.40 an hour - $4 above the minimum wage - to earn the week's rent.

Her $550 weekly pay cheque - after tax, KiwiSaver, union fees, and $20 tucked away for Christmas - is practically gone before it's in her hand.

A $70 accommodation supplement from Work and Income helps - it has just gone up from $40 - but it still won't cover the bills.

"I have to reapply for it every three months, which is insulting, I work bloody fulltime."

And it won't feed her two boys, who are at university. They each pay board of $140 a week, which helps put food on the table and keeps the lights on.

"They couldn't afford to pay more, because they're struggling students

That doesnt explain why you say that MW is always zero. What you are doing is taking an economic phenomenon that occurs in cycles and claiming its because of MW being $17/hr. Besides paying for food for someone in college is not a necessity because college is not a necessity. Dont give me a link. Tell me from your understanding why you say MW is always zero.

I thought you said raising minimum wage takes people off of the government?


I just proved it false by using New Zealand high minimum wage as an example .



Once again no matter where you peg minimum wage at it's still Zero.

I didnt say that but I agree. If your minimum wage pays the necessities you dont qualify for welfare.

No you didnt prove anything which is why I asked you to explain what you meant.

So you can't read now?





New Zealand's 'working poor' and the push to understand how many are struggling