Muslims are our friends but Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization?

[Kalam]

That looks like: ABSOLUTELY NOT, THERE IS NO WAY CHRISTIAN OR JEWS WOULD BE TOLERATED AS EQUALS.

You're welcome to believe whatever you'd like.

We will throw in little statements on paper that can be taken away with one muslim "bearing false witness" and falsely accusing the unbelievers as blasphemers. But we muslims will lie, cheat and break any other commandment when it comes to dealing with someone that does not believe as we believe. Honor and integrity are ideas to control other people, not how mulims live.

None of these things have any place in a Shari'i society and are imagined fears that stem from your failure to understand Islam and your desire to misrepresent it.

 

[High_Gravity]

Some of the KKK guys had/have black lovers/mistresses. Your point?

The KKK and the modern groups that succeeded it were founded on racial discrimination; Islam forbids it. Yours?

Here you are in an area that I am really not familiar with. I know Islam is not limited to any particular race, yet I do know that there is and has been racial discrimination in some Arab states that are predominantly Muslim.

This site for instance is certainly not one I would say was objective or without a specific agenda, but is the information re racial discrimination cited--most especially in the video--incorrect?

LEBANON: MUSLIM ‘apartheid’ policies forbid blacks from entering swimming pools Bare Naked Islam's Weblog

Christianity does not advocate any racial discrimination either but there are no doubt Christians who are prejudiced. The U.S. Constitution forbids racial discrimination but the KKK nevertheless exists. Policy and reality are not always the same thing.

Did this whole swimming pool thing in Lebanon really happen?

 

[Ropey]

Islam demands all Muslims to submit to Allah AND all others to be subordinate to the will of those Muslims who submit to Allah.

The emboldened part of your statement is incorrect unless it has a meaning other than that which seems apparent.

Then correct it for me please.

 

[Kalam]

Thats a good point, plus alot of Nazis didn't mind using Jewish women as sex slaves.

The difference is that KKK or Nazis were with these women in secret and didn't dare marry them.


Muslims marry Jewish or Christians out in the open with the approval of their families, society, and religion.

Then start a family and raise children like anyone else.

You mean the muslim men that treat muslim women like pigs and dogs (and then breed them) are willing to treat Christian and Jewish women the same, wow! Is there no end to the consideration you show?

As per usual, those on the other side of the discussion have chosen to reduce themselves to making hysterical arguments based on unfounded assumptions and puerile stereotypes.

 

[High_Gravity]

In what sense?

Christians and Jews should have the exact same rights as Muslims in a Muslim country, is that possible?

Their legal rights are the same and they, like Muslims, may vote for candidates and run for office in representative councils and be appointed to other local and national government positions. It goes without saying that they serve as judges at every level of their respective religious courts.

The Khalifah, his delegated assistant, governers, and provincial mayors are considered "ruling" positions and as such must be filled by Muslims, since Islam is the guiding ideology of the state and no country can expect to last long if it allows itself to be ruled by people who don't believe in its fundamental philosophy.

My concern is what happens if a Muslim woman marries a Christian or Jewish man, would they be stoned to death in this Islamic society?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Some of the KKK guys had/have black lovers/mistresses. Your point?

Thats a good point, plus alot of Nazis didn't mind using Jewish women as sex slaves.

The difference is that KKK or Nazis were with these women in secret and didn't dare marry them.


Muslims marry Jewish or Christians out in the open with the approval of their families, society, and religion.

Then start a family and raise children like anyone else.

But a muslim women faces penalties if she wishes to marry and raise enemies of Islam.

 

[Sunni Man]

Christianity does not advocate any racial discrimination either but there are no doubt Christians who are prejudiced. The U.S. Constitution forbids racial discrimination but the KKK nevertheless exists. Policy and reality are not always the same thing.

Racism is 100% forbidden in Islam.

Which the Prophet addressed in his last speech in front of thousands of muslims.


Farewell Address of Prophet Muhammad

........."All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no
superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any
superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority
over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white
- except by piety and good action".........

http://www.internetmosque.net/read/profit/farewell.pdf

 

[Foxfyre]

One question though, to be completely clear Kalam.

Is there any room for Israel in the ME? If so, what is that room?

If you're referring to the Jewish people of Palestine and their social and religious institutions, yes. If you're referring to the system of government in place there, no. In that sense my outlook toward Israel is no different than my outlook toward every other nation in the region.

But why?

How is the Israeli system of government a threat to any other Arab nation? Israel has made no effort to export their philosophy of government anywhere else. Israel has not threatened any other government ever. Israel has allowed peaceful Arab Muslims full citizenship in Israel complete with all social services and has not expelled any Arab or Muslim willing to live under Israeli law.

So you would tolerate the strict fundamental Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia or the crazi nutcases currently controlling Iran or the deviousness of a Syria or a developing republic in Iraq and find Israel unacceptable?

That simply makes no sense to me.

 

[logical4u]

That looks like: ABSOLUTELY NOT, THERE IS NO WAY CHRISTIAN OR JEWS WOULD BE TOLERATED AS EQUALS.

You're welcome to believe whatever you'd like.

We will throw in little statements on paper that can be taken away with one muslim "bearing false witness" and falsely accusing the unbelievers as blasphemers. But we muslims will lie, cheat and break any other commandment when it comes to dealing with someone that does not believe as we believe. Honor and integrity are ideas to control other people, not how mulims live.

None of these things have any place in a Shari'i society and are imagined fears that stem from your failure to understand Islam and your desire to misrepresent it.

Yet, when asked for evidence of such a society, you can list no place that it works. You will list places hundreds, even thousands of years ago that cannot be verified, but no society that uses Shariah law today that is a "shangrala" or even a place where people would choose to move their families because the culture and lifestyle were conducive to family life.
You have every opportunity to "educate" us about islam. When you list "your vision" of islam, it is easily disproved in many muslim societies.
Are you now telling me that Christians and Jews are not being targeted for murder in muslim societies?

 

[Ropey]

One question though, to be completely clear Kalam.

Is there any room for Israel in the ME? If so, what is that room?

If you're referring to the Jewish people of Palestine and their social and religious institutions, yes. If you're referring to the system of government in place there, no. In that sense my outlook toward Israel is no different than my outlook toward every other nation in the region.

But why?

How is the Israeli system of government a threat to any other Arab nation? Israel has made no effort to export their philosophy of government anywhere else. Israel has not threatened any other government ever. Israel has allowed peaceful Arab Muslims full citizenship in Israel complete with all social services and has not expelled any Arab or Muslim willing to live under Israeli law.

So you would tolerate the strict fundamental Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia or the crazi nutcases currently controlling Iran or the deviousness of a Syria or a developing republic in Iraq and find Israel unacceptable?

That simply makes no sense to me.

And I put forward this kind of intractable thinking is what is coming to America.

 

[High_Gravity]

From my understanding a true nation built on Shariah law will not tolerate unbelievers within their borders, or am I incorrect?

 

[Ropey]

That looks like: ABSOLUTELY NOT, THERE IS NO WAY CHRISTIAN OR JEWS WOULD BE TOLERATED AS EQUALS.

You're welcome to believe whatever you'd like.

We will throw in little statements on paper that can be taken away with one muslim "bearing false witness" and falsely accusing the unbelievers as blasphemers. But we muslims will lie, cheat and break any other commandment when it comes to dealing with someone that does not believe as we believe. Honor and integrity are ideas to control other people, not how mulims live.

None of these things have any place in a Shari'i society and are imagined fears that stem from your failure to understand Islam and your desire to misrepresent it.

Yet, when asked for evidence of such a society, you can list no place that it works. You will list places hundreds, even thousands of years ago that cannot be verified, but no society that uses Shariah law today that is a "shangrala" or even a place where people would choose to move their families because the culture and lifestyle were conducive to family life.
You have every opportunity to "educate" us about islam. When you list "your vision" of islam, it is easily disproved in many muslim societies.
Are you now telling me that Christians and Jews are not being targeted for murder in muslim societies?

He is looking on one track only. The spiritual track which he uses to pretend there is no real militaristic jihad.

There is and it is happening now. The spiritual jihad that Kalam speaks of is nowhere to be seen in action.

 

[logical4u]

Christianity does not advocate any racial discrimination either but there are no doubt Christians who are prejudiced. The U.S. Constitution forbids racial discrimination but the KKK nevertheless exists. Policy and reality are not always the same thing.

Racism is 100% forbidden in Islam.

Which the Prophet addressed in his last speech in front of thousands of muslims.


Farewell Address of Prophet Muhammad

........."All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no
superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any
superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority
over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white
- except by piety and good action".........

http://www.internetmosque.net/read/profit/farewell.pdf

A lot of things that are forbidden in islam are practiced by muslims. The 9/11 bombers were here partying and using women (without marrying them). "Dancing boys" are used for "love" (is pedophilia banned in islam?). Surely, if it is forbidden, that means muslims, ALL muslims will do as directed by islam....NOT.

 

[Ropey]

From my understanding a true nation built on Shariah law will not tolerate unbelievers within their borders, or am I incorrect?

You are incorrect. Islam will tolerate those who submit to the will of those Muslims who submit to the will of Allah.

Until they don't....

History shows what happens then.

 

[High_Gravity]

From my understanding a true nation built on Shariah law will not tolerate unbelievers within their borders, or am I incorrect?

You are incorrect. Islam will tolerate those who submit to the will of those Muslims who submit to the will of Allah.

Until they don't....

History shows what happens then.

The Christians in Pakistan and Egypt aren't bothering the Islamic rule and they are being slaughtered, whats up with that?

 

[Ropey]

Until they don't High Gravity.

Until they don't....

History shows this as well and is the reason for the creation of Last Bastions Against the Muslim Horde and many times.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

From my understanding a true nation built on Shariah law will not tolerate unbelievers within their borders, or am I incorrect?

Ask-Imam.com [5115] Plz tell me about Osama bin ladin and Taliban

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You're welcome to believe whatever you'd like.


None of these things have any place in a Shari'i society and are imagined fears that stem from your failure to understand Islam and your desire to misrepresent it.

Yet, when asked for evidence of such a society, you can list no place that it works. You will list places hundreds, even thousands of years ago that cannot be verified, but no society that uses Shariah law today that is a "shangrala" or even a place where people would choose to move their families because the culture and lifestyle were conducive to family life.
You have every opportunity to "educate" us about islam. When you list "your vision" of islam, it is easily disproved in many muslim societies.
Are you now telling me that Christians and Jews are not being targeted for murder in muslim societies?

He is looking on one track only. The spiritual track which he uses to pretend there is no real militaristic jihad.

There is and it is happening now. The spiritual jihad that Kalam speaks of is nowhere to be seen in action.

Oh Now he will pop off about how Islam will fight ya yak yak
He has a very narrow non traditional view of Islam .
Im not saying he is wrong, it is just narrow and non traditional .
You may notice how he doesnt support his opinions with links or sources ever wonder why ?

 

[Ropey]

Ask-Imam.com [5115] Plz tell me about Osama bin ladin and Taliban

Taliban was a valid Shar'ee government. The methods adopted by the Taliban
were in accordance to the Shari'ah. In the Shari'ah. The Imaam (Islamic
ruler) has the right and duty to enforce the external laws of the Shari'ah.
This had been the practice of the four rightly guided Khulafaa Raashideen.

Usama ibn Laadin is an upright Muslim and a devoted Mujaahid of Islam. The
allegations made against him were malicious, and designed to justify the
west's war against Islam. He, himself, has vehemently denied these
allegations. In Islam, the ideal system of appointment of the Ameer is that
of Shura (consultation) with the Ulama. The Ulama or the senior and
responsible members of the society should appoint the Ameer, who will then
appoint his government. This is the most preferred method. However, should a
proper Islamic government be established by other methods, e.g. monarchy,
then as long as they rule in accordance with the Shari'ah, they will be a
valid Islamic government.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Moulana Imraan Vawda
FATWA DEPT.

CHECKED AND APPROVED: Mufti Muhammad Kadwa

This after bin Laden posted the video explaining how and why he orchestrated 9-11.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiKyWJRRjnU"]bin Laden Speaks[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhctMpvszqQ"]bin Laden's own words[/ame]

More Islamic obfuscation.

 

[Foxfyre]

From my understanding a true nation built on Shariah law will not tolerate unbelievers within their borders, or am I incorrect?

You are incorrect. Unbelievers are tolerated very well. Unlike the Christian fanatics of old, Islam does not punish people for what they believe. Islam punishes people for not following the Islamic law and customs. Non compliance with Islamic culture, traditions, religious requirements, including Shariah law is not tolerated very well. In several Muslim countries non Muslims will be pretty well left alone as long as they remain essentially invisible. Let them be too obvious about who they are or too demonstative with their own culture and traditions, however, and in many places they will be in trouble.