Muslim baker...make me a Mohammed cake; Muslim hotel owner...host my pork festival; Can they refuse?

[AceRothstein]

Does the Muslim baker make Mohammed cakes for Muslims?

Hes never had to. Muslims religion forbids any image of Mohammed. ..so no Muslim would've ever attempted to get a cake with the prophet decorated on it.

I'll be the first to request it. For my religious diversity and pork eating festival. And...if necessary...ill decide im gay.

So a Muslim baker will face a gay man...requesting a Mohammed cake and catering for my pork festival.

So why would the Muslim baker have to bake a cake they don't bake?

 

[Kondor3]

"Muslim baker...make me a Mohammed cake; Muslim hotel owner...host my pork festival; Can they refuse?"

You're a ridiculous, ignorant idiot.

Why?

It's a legitimate question.

And, given that Muslims are the darlings of the Liberals-Wanna-Protect-Everybody-Even-if-the-Others-Don't-Reciprocate crowd, well, the use of Muslims in the example is a perfect way to 'get the goat' of Liberals, and to get them to examine what they are doing, in both a Legal sense, and, more importantly, in an Ethical sense.

And, of course, if the Ethics of the thing - if the equal treatment (or lack thereof) - or the Fairness of the thing (or lack thereof) - pertains to the very real perception that Christian businessmen must do things that violate their religious beliefs or consciences - yet Muslim businessmen can get away with avoiding identical or similar things that violate their beliefs or consciences...

You're wrong: Muslim Cab Drivers Refuse to Transport Alcohol, and Dogs
Muslim cab drivers were forced to take passengers with dogs or carrying alcolhol. ACLU was against the cab drivers.

Good catch.

I was wrong.

Thank you.

I (now) remember hearing about this, years ago, but it had fallen off my scope.

I acknowledge the error, in assuming that Muslims always 'get a pass' in Liberal eyes, while Christians always 'take the hit'.

Adapting that to read 'usually, if not always.'

And, I now modify that to the narrower context of Muslim bakers, and the feedback from Liberal contributors, herein, which would force Christians to undertake business transactions which violate their beliefs while allowing Muslims to refuse business transactions which violate theirs.

 

[Kondor3]

...So a Muslim baker will face a gay man...requesting a Mohammed cake and catering for my pork festival.

Triple Threat?

 

[High_Gravity]

Does the Muslim baker make Mohammed cakes for Muslims?

Hes never had to. Muslims religion forbids any image of Mohammed. ..so no Muslim would've ever attempted to get a cake with the prophet decorated on it.

I'll be the first to request it. For my religious diversity and pork eating festival. And...if necessary...ill decide im gay.

So a Muslim baker will face a gay man...requesting a Mohammed cake and catering for my pork festival.

Say you are also Black.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I own a business that is governed by the principles of public accommodation. As a business owner, I cannot refuse service on the basis of a customer's race, ethnicity or sexual orientation, but that does not give my customers the right to dictate what I do or do not sell.

I'm not in the business of selling cakes, but were I to do so, if I baked a white cake with red roses decorating on the frosting for one customer I would be expected to bake a white cake with red roses for another. If I baked a cake with the words "Best of luck" the same would apply. If a customer asked me to bake a cake depicting animal cruelty, rape, or anything else I found offensive, however, I could refuse because those sorts of images would not be part of the normal selection I offered.

It amazes me that some people could be so motivated by their agenda that they would fail to grasp the actual principles involved.

 

[boedicca]

It would protect Muslims from betraying their religion too.

If the government deems their belief valid.

I find it quite horrifying to think of the Government as an Arbiter of True Faith. That seems to me to be completely opposed to the establishment clause. Religious beliefs are personal. The government has no business applying a spiritual litmus test.

That's what this law does though.

Only because the government wrote laws to allow them to do that. Government always seeks to expand power. We are incredibly far astray from our Constitutional Rights.

I can see a day in the future when a court must decide if the bible forbids baking a cake for a gay couple.

No, the court would have to decide if forcing the baker to make a cake placed an undo burden on him or her which outweighed the public interest.

 

[Ravi]

If the government deems their belief valid.

I find it quite horrifying to think of the Government as an Arbiter of True Faith. That seems to me to be completely opposed to the establishment clause. Religious beliefs are personal. The government has no business applying a spiritual litmus test.

That's what this law does though.

Only because the government wrote laws to allow them to do that. Government always seeks to expand power. We are incredibly far astray from our Constitutional Rights.

I can see a day in the future when a court must decide if the bible forbids baking a cake for a gay couple.

No, the court would have to decide if forcing the baker to make a cake placed an undo burden on him or her which outweighed the public interest.

According to the law, the court can decide if someone's religious objections are valid. Therefore the court will need to determine if baking a cake is forbidden by a religion. As far as I can tell it is not forbidden by any religion.

 

[Katzndogz]

Yep. I live in South Carolina. ..one of the only other states with such a law...which would allow the Muslim to say no based on religion.


But...I suggest folks in more liberal areas like California or New York....host a religious party cecelebrating diversity!

Find a Muslim owned bakery. Order a Jesus cake and a Buddah cake and especially a big beautiful prophet Mohammed cake!

Slice those delicious caricature cakes up and celebrate.

Im sure the tolerant liberals would agree that the Muslim baker cannot discriminate and will make me those cakes...including the Mohammed cake. His turban will.be cream cheese icing...yum...im slicing that head off first!

The very muslim bakery in Westwood doesn't bake specialty cakes at all. I was there when a gay couple came in to make an appointment for a tasting to order a wedding cake and got told that any cake in the cake case was available but the bakery made no wedding cakes. Nor did they make birthday cakes, or retirement party cakes. If you want a cake, it's what's on the shelf. So no. A muslim bakery would not make a religious cake.

When my muslim friends got married, this same bakery supplied a very elaborate wedding cake.

It depends on who you ask and how you ask.

 

[boedicca]

I find it quite horrifying to think of the Government as an Arbiter of True Faith. That seems to me to be completely opposed to the establishment clause. Religious beliefs are personal. The government has no business applying a spiritual litmus test.

That's what this law does though.

Only because the government wrote laws to allow them to do that. Government always seeks to expand power. We are incredibly far astray from our Constitutional Rights.

I can see a day in the future when a court must decide if the bible forbids baking a cake for a gay couple.

No, the court would have to decide if forcing the baker to make a cake placed an undo burden on him or her which outweighed the public interest.

According to the law, the court can decide if someone's religious objections are valid. Therefore the court will need to determine if baking a cake is forbidden by a religion. As far as I can tell it is not forbidden by any religion.

And as I noted earlier, I find it horrifying that our Dear Leaders have constructed such a Gordian knot of laws and regulations that someone would ever be put in such a position in the first place.

As Glenn Reynolds notes: you are probably breaking a law right now. And that is the point, if everyone is made into a criminal via unknowable regulations, then it's much easier for those in power to target inconvenient people.

Columbia Law Review Ham Sandwich Nation Due Process When Everything Is a Crime

 

[irosie91]

I own a business that is governed by the principles of public accommodation. As a business owner, I cannot refuse service on the basis of a customer's race, ethnicity or sexual orientation, but that does not give my customers the right to dictate what I do or do not sell.

I'm not in the business of selling cakes, but were I to do so, if I baked a white cake with red roses decorating on the frosting for one customer I would be expected to bake a white cake with red roses for another. If I baked a cake with the words "Best of luck" the same would apply. If a customer asked me to bake a cake depicting animal cruelty, rape, or anything else I found offensive, however, I could refuse because those sorts of images would not be part of the normal selection I offered.

It amazes me that some people could be so motivated by their agenda that they would fail to grasp the actual principles involved.

Continue to be amazed-----this crap is going to accelerate ------clergy will be forced to violate the
principles of the creed they represent, doctors will be
forced to endorse activities to which they object and
procedures they consider contraindicated, candle stick
makers will be forced to create candles designed to
be used in immoral acts (there was a reference to
the use of a "candle" in a story that I read in college---
I was a naïve kid-----and could not manage to translate it-----I simply did not UNDERSTAND the usage that was
described------it was ok----I managed to pull an 'A' in the course anyway. ))

 

[Ravi]

That's what this law does though.

Only because the government wrote laws to allow them to do that. Government always seeks to expand power. We are incredibly far astray from our Constitutional Rights.

I can see a day in the future when a court must decide if the bible forbids baking a cake for a gay couple.

No, the court would have to decide if forcing the baker to make a cake placed an undo burden on him or her which outweighed the public interest.

According to the law, the court can decide if someone's religious objections are valid. Therefore the court will need to determine if baking a cake is forbidden by a religion. As far as I can tell it is not forbidden by any religion.

And as I noted earlier, I find it horrifying that our Dear Leaders have constructed such a Gordian knot of laws and regulations that someone would ever be put in such a position in the first place.

As Glenn Reynolds notes: you are probably breaking a law right now. And that is the point, if everyone is made into a criminal via unknowable regulations, then it's much easier for those in power to target inconvenient people.

Columbia Law Review Ham Sandwich Nation Due Process When Everything Is a Crime

I don't really disagree with you but I would just love to watch a court case trying to decide if Christians are forbidden from baking cakes for same sex marriage.

 

[boedicca]

Only because the government wrote laws to allow them to do that. Government always seeks to expand power. We are incredibly far astray from our Constitutional Rights.

I can see a day in the future when a court must decide if the bible forbids baking a cake for a gay couple.

No, the court would have to decide if forcing the baker to make a cake placed an undo burden on him or her which outweighed the public interest.

According to the law, the court can decide if someone's religious objections are valid. Therefore the court will need to determine if baking a cake is forbidden by a religion. As far as I can tell it is not forbidden by any religion.

And as I noted earlier, I find it horrifying that our Dear Leaders have constructed such a Gordian knot of laws and regulations that someone would ever be put in such a position in the first place.

As Glenn Reynolds notes: you are probably breaking a law right now. And that is the point, if everyone is made into a criminal via unknowable regulations, then it's much easier for those in power to target inconvenient people.

Columbia Law Review Ham Sandwich Nation Due Process When Everything Is a Crime

I don't really disagree with you but I would just love to watch a court case trying to decide if Christians are forbidden from baking cakes for same sex marriage.

I wouldn't. I see no public policy interest in having a Government Litmus Test for one's personal spirituality.

 

[Kondor3]

I find it quite horrifying to think of the Government as an Arbiter of True Faith. That seems to me to be completely opposed to the establishment clause. Religious beliefs are personal. The government has no business applying a spiritual litmus test.

That's what this law does though.

Only because the government wrote laws to allow them to do that. Government always seeks to expand power. We are incredibly far astray from our Constitutional Rights.

I can see a day in the future when a court must decide if the bible forbids baking a cake for a gay couple.

No, the court would have to decide if forcing the baker to make a cake placed an undo burden on him or her which outweighed the public interest.

According to the law, the court can decide if someone's religious objections are valid. Therefore the court will need to determine if baking a cake is forbidden by a religion. As far as I can tell it is not forbidden by any religion.

Baking a cake is, as you pointed out, and quite probably, not forbidden by any mainstream religion.

However, decorating a cake, with particular imagery, may very well do just that.

And, of course, associating with Evil-Doers or Sinners may very well be forbidden (or strongly discouraged) by a variety of belief-systems and sects and offshoots.

Very few folks are likely to object to the baking of a cake.

But...

Decorating a cake with objectionable imagery? Not so certain.

Associating with Evil-Doers? Not so certain.

Participating in an event featuring Evil-Doing? No so certain.

And it's those three latter issues, which form the basis of the objection, yes?

 

[Kondor3]

Only because the government wrote laws to allow them to do that. Government always seeks to expand power. We are incredibly far astray from our Constitutional Rights.

I can see a day in the future when a court must decide if the bible forbids baking a cake for a gay couple.

No, the court would have to decide if forcing the baker to make a cake placed an undo burden on him or her which outweighed the public interest.

According to the law, the court can decide if someone's religious objections are valid. Therefore the court will need to determine if baking a cake is forbidden by a religion. As far as I can tell it is not forbidden by any religion.

And as I noted earlier, I find it horrifying that our Dear Leaders have constructed such a Gordian knot of laws and regulations that someone would ever be put in such a position in the first place.

As Glenn Reynolds notes: you are probably breaking a law right now. And that is the point, if everyone is made into a criminal via unknowable regulations, then it's much easier for those in power to target inconvenient people.

Columbia Law Review Ham Sandwich Nation Due Process When Everything Is a Crime

I don't really disagree with you but I would just love to watch a court case trying to decide if Christians are forbidden from baking cakes for same sex marriage.

Secular courts of law are incompetent to rule in canonical matters.

 

[Ravi]

That's what this law does though.

Only because the government wrote laws to allow them to do that. Government always seeks to expand power. We are incredibly far astray from our Constitutional Rights.

I can see a day in the future when a court must decide if the bible forbids baking a cake for a gay couple.

No, the court would have to decide if forcing the baker to make a cake placed an undo burden on him or her which outweighed the public interest.

According to the law, the court can decide if someone's religious objections are valid. Therefore the court will need to determine if baking a cake is forbidden by a religion. As far as I can tell it is not forbidden by any religion.

Baking a cake is, as you pointed out, and quite probably, not forbidden by any mainstream religion.

However, decorating a cake, with particular imagery, may very well do just that.

And, of course, associating with Evil-Doers or Sinners may very well be forbidden (or strongly discouraged) by a variety of belief-systems and sects and offshoots.

Very few folks are likely to object to the baking of a cake.

But...

Decorating a cake with objectionable imagery? Not so certain.

Associating with Evil-Doers? Not so certain.

Participating in an event featuring Evil-Doing? No so certain.

And it's those three latter issues, which form the basis of the objection, yes?

Once again, if a bakery doesn't offer the images it IS NOT REQUIRED TO SELL THE IMAGES.

How many times must this be pointed out to you?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Continue to be amazed-----this crap is going to accelerate ------clergy will be forced to violate the
principles of the creed they represent, doctors will be
forced to endorse activities to which they object and
procedures they consider contraindicated, candle stick
makers will be forced to create candles designed to
be used in immoral acts (there was a reference to
the use of a "candle" in a story that I read in college---
I was a naïve kid-----and could not manage to translate it-----I simply did not UNDERSTAND the usage that was
described------it was ok----I managed to pull an 'A' in the course anyway. ))

Professor Plum and Miss Scarlet.........in the bedroom........with the candlestick.

I never realized Clue could be so fun!

 

[Kondor3]

...Once again, if a bakery doesn't offer the images it IS NOT REQUIRED TO SELL THE IMAGES. How many times must this be pointed out to you?

And if the bakery advertises custom decorating made-to-order (which most do), and then objects to a particular sort of imagery, on religious grounds?

How many times will you use that same lame-ass excuse to try to weasel out of answering the question?

 

[Ravi]

...Once again, if a bakery doesn't offer the images it IS NOT REQUIRED TO SELL THE IMAGES. How many times must this be pointed out to you?

And if the bakery advertises custom decorating made-to-order (which most do), and then objects to a particular sort of imagery, on religious grounds?

How many times will you use that same lame-ass excuse to try to weasel out of answering the question?

They can not sell any image they want using whatever grounds floats their boats. IF THEY DON'T OFFER THE IMAGE THEY ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO SELL IT.

 

[Kondor3]

...Once again, if a bakery doesn't offer the images it IS NOT REQUIRED TO SELL THE IMAGES. How many times must this be pointed out to you?

And if the bakery advertises custom decorating made-to-order (which most do), and then objects to a particular sort of imagery, on religious grounds?

How many times will you use that same lame-ass excuse to try to weasel out of answering the question?

They can not sell any image they want using whatever grounds floats their boats. IF THEY DON'T OFFER THE IMAGE THEY ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO SELL IT.

Custom Made-to-Order Decorations...

Got it?

Not a pre-existing Catalog of Offered Imagery, but...

Custom Made-to-Order Decorations...

Now...

Answer the frigging question...

If you dare...

If a Muslim baker advertises Custom Made-to-Order Cake Decorations...

And a customer wants a custom made-to-order image of the Prophet Muhammed on the cake...

Is the Muslim baker entitled to refuse the customer's order, on the grounds that it violates his religious principles?

Yes or No?

 

[irosie91]

Continue to be amazed-----this crap is going to accelerate ------clergy will be forced to violate the
principles of the creed they represent, doctors will be
forced to endorse activities to which they object and
procedures they consider contraindicated, candle stick
makers will be forced to create candles designed to
be used in immoral acts (there was a reference to
the use of a "candle" in a story that I read in college---
I was a naïve kid-----and could not manage to translate it-----I simply did not UNDERSTAND the usage that was
described------it was ok----I managed to pull an 'A' in the course anyway. ))

Professor Plum and Miss Scarlet.........in the bedroom........with the candlestick.

I never realized Clue could be so fun!

Professor Plum and Miss Scarlet------are british----
but you got the general idea