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CDZ multi-polarity : maybe we (in NATO, under US leadership) ought to seek to restrict the Iranians ONLY on their nuclear weapons and ICBM programs..

peacefan

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Hi, all.

In the 2000s, i advocated on the Republican hangout forums at compuserve, under the nickname peacefularg (peaceful argument), that Iran should not be regime-changed by military invasion, to curtail their nuclear weapons ambitions.
I won that discussion after several months, when i explained that in Europe, we have large populations of Muslims living peacefully among us, people we imported way back in the 1960s to do the jobs that whites simply didn't want to do anymore (like cleaning offices, for instance).
Their 3rd-generation descendants have now moved into jobs like dentistry, carpentry, overseeing construction sites (pointing people around in complicated traffic situations), etc, etc.
And how i won that discussion was simply to tell them that after the very violent invasion of Iraq, under what later proved to be false pretenses (Iraq having stockpiles of WMDs), that European population of Muslims would be driven right into the hands of groups like alQuada, if we did something similar to Iran.
So i was asked the question "what would you do instead?" by a generous American. I simply answered : "keep them (the Iranians) busy with sanctions, i'll continue my work on forums to seek a better solution".

And the US administration at the time soon came up with the Iran Nuclear Deal, which i of course started advertising towards the Muslims that i kept in touch with at various Muslim oriented forums (now most notably defence.pk).

It all worked out nicely for a while, we even had the Iranians agreeing to nuclear inspections, but then Trump decided that it was "a bad deal", had the US unilaterally step out of that deal, and then expanded the deal to include the Iranians' ballistic missile programs and their regional militancy programs.
I went along with that, advertising to the Muslims that they should yield to this expanded deal. But both ordinary Muslims on those forums, and the Iranian government, rejected my argumentation staunchly at every turn.

Then the situation in the US changed yet again, with the withdrawal of support for the Saudis in their fight against the Iranian-backed Houtis in Yemen.
And it was around the same time that i started thinking : maybe, since i support Russian and Chinese desires for more (but according to my own and NATO's desires not unlimited) "multi-polarity" on Earth.
Multi-polarity is where multiple blocks of larger and smaller nations share the power (and taxation rights) over the world, whereas the 1980s model of uni-polarity and the USA being "the world's police power", is *outdated* now, with China's decision to invest heavily in their military.
At defence.pk, you'll find that the Chinese realistically claim that their military power is in a technical sense near or even better than western military assets.
And me, i'd like to avoid arms races and regional wars as much as possible. That's just a total waste of lives, money, and public image.

So, i'd hereby like to propose the following ideas / solutions to avoid armsraces and regional wars with the Iranians :
- allow the Iranians a non-nuclear, non-biological, non-viral, conventional-explosions-only ballistic missile program, and a civilian space program (yes, they already have one), but NOT an ICBM program (with which they could extort Europe more effectively than that alQuada recruitment threat i talked about earlier in this post).
- allow the Iranians (who have *always* had a measure of regional-imperialistic desires of their own) their militancy programs, because once an Iranian backed group has a solid grip on power, peace and prosperity for that local population *do* tend to follow.
- back up the Israelis in their desire to keep the Iranians a non-nuclear-weapons state. All European nations need this too (suitcase nukes, truck-based nukes, that sorta thing).
- unilaterally suspend all sanctions that affect the common men and common women in Iran. re-direct sanctions at their richest 10% and their government and military and intel and police leaders instead.

resources to look at while you're considering this all :

'Israel won't stand by as Iran advances nuclear program' - Benny Gantz - The Jerusalem Post
 

Admiral Rockwell Tory

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Hi, all.

In the 2000s, i advocated on the Republican hangout forums at compuserve, under the nickname peacefularg (peaceful argument), that Iran should not be regime-changed by military invasion, to curtail their nuclear weapons ambitions.
I won that discussion after several months, when i explained that in Europe, we have large populations of Muslims living peacefully among us, people we imported way back in the 1960s to do the jobs that whites simply didn't want to do anymore (like cleaning offices, for instance).
Their 3rd-generation descendants have now moved into jobs like dentistry, carpentry, overseeing construction sites (pointing people around in complicated traffic situations), etc, etc.
And how i won that discussion was simply to tell them that after the very violent invasion of Iraq, under what later proved to be false pretenses (Iraq having stockpiles of WMDs), that European population of Muslims would be driven right into the hands of groups like alQuada, if we did something similar to Iran.
So i was asked the question "what would you do instead?" by a generous American. I simply answered : "keep them (the Iranians) busy with sanctions, i'll continue my work on forums to seek a better solution".

And the US administration at the time soon came up with the Iran Nuclear Deal, which i of course started advertising towards the Muslims that i kept in touch with at various Muslim oriented forums (now most notably defence.pk).

It all worked out nicely for a while, we even had the Iranians agreeing to nuclear inspections, but then Trump decided that it was "a bad deal", had the US unilaterally step out of that deal, and then expanded the deal to include the Iranians' ballistic missile programs and their regional militancy programs.
I went along with that, advertising to the Muslims that they should yield to this expanded deal. But both ordinary Muslims on those forums, and the Iranian government, rejected my argumentation staunchly at every turn.

Then the situation in the US changed yet again, with the withdrawal of support for the Saudis in their fight against the Iranian-backed Houtis in Yemen.
And it was around the same time that i started thinking : maybe, since i support Russian and Chinese desires for more (but according to my own and NATO's desires not unlimited) "multi-polarity" on Earth.
Multi-polarity is where multiple blocks of larger and smaller nations share the power (and taxation rights) over the world, whereas the 1980s model of uni-polarity and the USA being "the world's police power", is *outdated* now, with China's decision to invest heavily in their military.
At defence.pk, you'll find that the Chinese realistically claim that their military power is in a technical sense near or even better than western military assets.
And me, i'd like to avoid arms races and regional wars as much as possible. That's just a total waste of lives, money, and public image.

So, i'd hereby like to propose the following ideas / solutions to avoid armsraces and regional wars with the Iranians :
- allow the Iranians a non-nuclear, non-biological, non-viral, conventional-explosions-only ballistic missile program, and a civilian space program (yes, they already have one), but NOT an ICBM program (with which they could extort Europe more effectively than that alQuada recruitment threat i talked about earlier in this post).
- allow the Iranians (who have *always* had a measure of regional-imperialistic desires of their own) their militancy programs, because once an Iranian backed group has a solid grip on power, peace and prosperity for that local population *do* tend to follow.
- back up the Israelis in their desire to keep the Iranians a non-nuclear-weapons state. All European nations need this too (suitcase nukes, truck-based nukes, that sorta thing).
- unilaterally suspend all sanctions that affect the common men and common women in Iran. re-direct sanctions at their richest 10% and their government and military and intel and police leaders instead.

resources to look at while you're considering this all :

'Israel won't stand by as Iran advances nuclear program' - Benny Gantz - The Jerusalem Post
You do realize that space programs and ICBM programs are in reality one and the same. Our Mercury space program grew directly out of our ICBM program.
 
OP
peacefan

peacefan

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You do realize that space programs and ICBM programs are in reality one and the same. Our Mercury space program grew directly out of our ICBM program.
how about we re-institute the Iran Nuclear Deal with the carrot being sanctions relief (mostly for the citizens of Iran, but *also* for the various leaderships of Iran),
under the condition that we get solid nuclear arms inspections going and inspections of their space program as well?

that way, the Mossad should be able to see if the Iranians are developing things like (multi-)warhead targetting tech for Iranian ICBMs :)

because, in my view at least, and the views of plenty of other folks around the world too, most notably the Chinese and Russian and Muslim governments and *their* online supporters (not to be underestimated as a source of recruitment potential for groups that hate the west and it's allies),
*every* nation should have the right to do peaceful space exploration and research.
 

Admiral Rockwell Tory

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how about we re-institute the Iran Nuclear Deal with the carrot being sanctions relief (mostly for the citizens of Iran, but *also* for the various leaderships of Iran),
under the condition that we get solid nuclear arms inspections going and inspections of their space program as well?

that way, the Mossad should be able to see if the Iranians are developing things like (multi-)warhead targetting tech for Iranian ICBMs :)

because, in my view at least, and the views of plenty of other folks around the world too, most notably the Chinese and Russian and Muslim governments and *their* online supporters (not to be underestimated as a source of recruitment potential for groups that hate the west and it's allies),
*every* nation should have the right to do peaceful space exploration and research.
Thank you Barack! I didn't know you posted on this message board.

The government of Iran does not care about its people. Your post is filled with dumb ideas, because they have already been tried and proven to be failures.
 
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peacefan

peacefan

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Thank you Barack! I didn't know you posted on this message board.

The government of Iran does not care about its people. Your post is filled with dumb ideas, because they have already been tried and proven to be failures.
I'm not Barack, i'm a white Dutch guy living in Amsterdam, The Netherlands.

I believe the government of Iran *does* care about it's people, as do MANY other Muslims around the world (including *many* in Europe),
and i strongly believe that the ideas i post on this forum are anything but dumb.
 
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peacefan

peacefan

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Ivan88

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If Persia should have nuclear inspections, so too should USA & it's master, the Israelis. Or is being "fair" not part of Yankee mentality?
 

ESay

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The government of Iran does not care about its people. Your post is filled with dumb ideas, because they have already been tried and proven to be failures
Actually, at some point they will have to look at their people's well-being. You can't have a stable government amid constantly deteriorating economic conditions. Crackdowns on opposition and oppression also have their limits.
 

Deplorable Yankee

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Hi, all.

In the 2000s, i advocated on the Republican hangout forums at compuserve, under the nickname peacefularg (peaceful argument), that Iran should not be regime-changed by military invasion, to curtail their nuclear weapons ambitions.
I won that discussion after several months, when i explained that in Europe, we have large populations of Muslims living peacefully among us, people we imported way back in the 1960s to do the jobs that whites simply didn't want to do anymore (like cleaning offices, for instance).
Their 3rd-generation descendants have now moved into jobs like dentistry, carpentry, overseeing construction sites (pointing people around in complicated traffic situations), etc, etc.
And how i won that discussion was simply to tell them that after the very violent invasion of Iraq, under what later proved to be false pretenses (Iraq having stockpiles of WMDs), that European population of Muslims would be driven right into the hands of groups like alQuada, if we did something similar to Iran.
So i was asked the question "what would you do instead?" by a generous American. I simply answered : "keep them (the Iranians) busy with sanctions, i'll continue my work on forums to seek a better solution".

And the US administration at the time soon came up with the Iran Nuclear Deal, which i of course started advertising towards the Muslims that i kept in touch with at various Muslim oriented forums (now most notably defence.pk).

It all worked out nicely for a while, we even had the Iranians agreeing to nuclear inspections, but then Trump decided that it was "a bad deal", had the US unilaterally step out of that deal, and then expanded the deal to include the Iranians' ballistic missile programs and their regional militancy programs.
I went along with that, advertising to the Muslims that they should yield to this expanded deal. But both ordinary Muslims on those forums, and the Iranian government, rejected my argumentation staunchly at every turn.

Then the situation in the US changed yet again, with the withdrawal of support for the Saudis in their fight against the Iranian-backed Houtis in Yemen.
And it was around the same time that i started thinking : maybe, since i support Russian and Chinese desires for more (but according to my own and NATO's desires not unlimited) "multi-polarity" on Earth.
Multi-polarity is where multiple blocks of larger and smaller nations share the power (and taxation rights) over the world, whereas the 1980s model of uni-polarity and the USA being "the world's police power", is *outdated* now, with China's decision to invest heavily in their military.
At defence.pk, you'll find that the Chinese realistically claim that their military power is in a technical sense near or even better than western military assets.
And me, i'd like to avoid arms races and regional wars as much as possible. That's just a total waste of lives, money, and public image.

So, i'd hereby like to propose the following ideas / solutions to avoid armsraces and regional wars with the Iranians :
- allow the Iranians a non-nuclear, non-biological, non-viral, conventional-explosions-only ballistic missile program, and a civilian space program (yes, they already have one), but NOT an ICBM program (with which they could extort Europe more effectively than that alQuada recruitment threat i talked about earlier in this post).
- allow the Iranians (who have *always* had a measure of regional-imperialistic desires of their own) their militancy programs, because once an Iranian backed group has a solid grip on power, peace and prosperity for that local population *do* tend to follow.
- back up the Israelis in their desire to keep the Iranians a non-nuclear-weapons state. All European nations need this too (suitcase nukes, truck-based nukes, that sorta thing).
- unilaterally suspend all sanctions that affect the common men and common women in Iran. re-direct sanctions at their richest 10% and their government and military and intel and police leaders instead.

resources to look at while you're considering this all :

'Israel won't stand by as Iran advances nuclear program' - Benny Gantz - The Jerusalem Post
The FUSA isn't leading shit.... its to busy trying to do its part domestically to implement the great reset

Oh yeah ....when they're dragging ya off to wellness camp no one is coming to save you
 

Ivan88

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Comrad peacefan, what kind of "peace" are you advocating?

Your advocacy of a fake Israel composed of anti-Christ Edomites, Khazars and Ashkenaz etc. is not a peaceful enterprise, and indicates that you may be cut off from the Genetic Heritage of Zebulon Israel

Nederlands has a national anthem:
Got Redde Nederland
"To Zebulon enwrappen in night, doth first return His Wondrous Light, Our death dark thoughts He Casts Away that we Live in Light Each Day,

Zebulon, Zebulon doth dwell within His Light, In Zebulon The Lord His Ministry Began, The water changed to wedding wine, My Father's Kingdom is thine,
Moses Blesses Zebulon, suck thou the abundance from the sea, and treasure hidden in the sea, "Abundance of both sea and land.";

"Call all Men to His Holy Mount"; "Proclaim His Message far and wide"; "Set Thou thy gifts upon His side";
"Zebulon doth dwell Within His Light";

"Thus Yacob Blesses Zebulon long before the Great Exile began";
"The Holy Spirit led us here With open hearts is all Thine We Are;
Bring Light to all the Tribes of Israel;
If we live our Ancestry, do Hail, Turn back to YahvehShua, as Israel,
Then Zebulon, the First, doth see His Radiant Light to set them Free; 12,000 out of Zebulon,
Arise Before His Gloious Throne, Extol the Lamb and praise His Name,
All Israel a Golden Name,
Israel Israel doth dwell within His Light, From storms a Haven to Maintain, The open sea thy ship's domain,
Thy staunch sons braving wind and tide, their nets thrown on either side
, Thus Yacob Blesses Zebulon long err the Great Exile began this Blessing gave to Zebulon These sea-washed coasts to dwell upon, Zebulon, Zebulon doth dwells within His Light
 
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Tom Paine 1949

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The Trump presidency ended the JCPOA agreement with Iran and with it all hope that the “reformers” in Teheran would succeed in moving Iran back into a more normal trade and political relationship with the West. European countries, though they pretended to continue respecting the JCPOA, completely capitulated to the threat of U.S. sanctions, which Bolton and Pompeo aimed at them if they traded with Iran. Here is a recent article on the present situation:

Has the nuclear deal with Iran already died … ? The difficulties in reviving it would suggest it truly has… So what exactly is going on? … From Biden’s perspective, the political advantages of clinching a new deal have waned…. Republicans are accusing Biden of being “soft” on Iran, which could cost Biden politically in the midterm elections.

From [new hardline Iranian President] Raisi’s perspective, a partial lifting of sanctions is worse than keeping the status quo, especially if in three years, a change in the U.S. presidency would translate into a full set of sanctions being reimposed…. Over the past three years … [Iran] adapted economically to life with sanctions. Its economy has grown 6 percent this year. It’s less dependent on oil, and has been trading more with its neighbours to the east.

Raisi’s first foreign trip as president was to Central Asia, where last month Iran signed on as a new member of the Shanghai Cooperation Council…. Iran previously focused on the West … but has now turned to look the other way, seeing China and India as equally good markets ….

Iran’s leaders have little faith that a renewed deal would lead to a return of [Western] businesses to Tehran…. Western banks and companies have already made it clear they can’t commit, since a return to new sanctions could be just around the corner…

Biden’s second dilemma is Israel, which for the past year has been conducting a … campaign of sabotage against Iran to degrade its nuclear program…. Israel views its approach as sustainable and effective. Yet this puts pressure not only on Iran, but … feeds into Iran’s deep suspicion of American motives and has hardened its posture…. Biden has assured Israel that should [negotiations] fail, other measures will be taken against Iran.

For Iranian President Raisi, the international environment has changed too…. Tehran is now in serious face-to-face talks with Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates about regional security and the war in Yemen. Trade has picked up across the Gulf as well. It is possible that … other issues may be addressed down the line … With the wealthy Gulf states feeling less secure of U.S. military support, there is strong impetus among their leaders to take responsibility for their neighborhood. This reduces the incentive for Tehran to strike a new deal with Washington….

Is there a Plan B for either Iran or the United States? Israel is already pursuing a Plan B — death by a thousand cuts, to reduce Iran’s nuclear capability, and … destabilize its government. From Iran’s perspective, outside pressure, short of a full-scale land invasion, could actually be a political boon — raising popular ire and increasing patriotic support, not a bad thing to rally a population that by most measures is currently despondent.

For Biden, the picture is not pretty…. As he looks to focus more on the challenges from China, a slow conflagration in the Middle East will be an unwelcome diversion. The only way around that, however, is to negotiate a new Iran deal that will stick.

Is the old nuke deal with Iran already dead? – Responsible Statecraft
 
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Ivan88

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Hi, all.

In the 2000s, i advocated on the Republican hangout forums at compuserve, under the nickname peacefularg (peaceful argument), that Iran should not be regime-changed by military invasion, to curtail their nuclear weapons ambitions.
I won that discussion after several months, when i explained that in Europe, we have large populations of Muslims living peacefully among us, people we imported way back in the 1960s to do the jobs that whites simply didn't want to do anymore (like cleaning offices, for instance).
Their 3rd-generation descendants have now moved into jobs like dentistry, carpentry, overseeing construction sites (pointing people around in complicated traffic situations), etc, etc.
And how i won that discussion was simply to tell them that after the very violent invasion of Iraq, under what later proved to be false pretenses (Iraq having stockpiles of WMDs), that European population of Muslims would be driven right into the hands of groups like alQuada, if we did something similar to Iran.
So i was asked the question "what would you do instead?" by a generous American. I simply answered : "keep them (the Iranians) busy with sanctions, i'll continue my work on forums to seek a better solution".

resources to look at while you're considering this all :

'Israel won't stand by as Iran advances nuclear program' - Benny Gantz - The Jerusalem Post
While Peacefan's argument is sensible, on the surface to Americans, several vital factors are left out of the reasoning.
1. Persia is not an enemy to Biblical Aryan Christian Israel. King Cyrus is Yahveh's Messiah to Yehuda and sent them back to Yerusalem, built their temple and saved them from Edomites who tried to stop them.
2 Persia (Iran) made Biblical movies about Yusif (Joseph) and how his brothers tried to murder Him and then sold Him into slavery and how Yusif saved Egypt, overcame the priests of Amon, and saved he lives of millions of peoples in the regions outside of Egypt, converted the Pharoah, Pharoah's Son, and Potiphar & Potiphar's wife.
2a. The Virgin Mary and how she & her uncle overcame the Edomites pretending to be Yehuda, and tried several times to kill her and her uncle., and revealed the miracle of YahShua as a baby speaking to the Edomites lusting to kill Mary and Him.
3a. And a movie about Solomon and how He, as a young man miraculously overcame the Edomites who tried to take over His Kingdom. For these movies alone, present day Edomites Hate Persia.
3. The first Iyatola that took over on the fall of the Shah of Iran, was a CIA plant, just as the Shah was a CIA operative.
4.USA and it's lover, the Israelis, are the most irresponsible atom bomb countries in the world.
And the deluded Americans who let President Kennedy be assassinated and have covered up ;the assassins all these years, are still playing Edom's games.
USA has become Babylon in service to Molech, Remphan and the Edomites.
5. There is absolutely NOTHING honest about USA's actions against Persia/Iran.
And that Benny Gantz comment proves it.
 

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