More teenage mothers emerge in Texas polygamy probe

[BrianH]

While I have serious reservations about polygamy and have no desire to engage in it myself I think you are making a stretch that polygamy causes these behaviors.

Oh, and the part about the "man" having to provide for so many families...what a laugh. Like the multiple wives or multiple husbands can't get jobs themselves.

It may not cause these things, but it is certainly illegal in Texas. Grounds for prosecution alone for this sect.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Show me a "successful" polygamist community.


What exactly do you mean here? I don't agree with man on man sex nor multiple partners for whom there is no responsibility. They are all forms of social disintegration.

But you have no problem with it being perfectly legal for men to do men and for a man or woman to have multiple partners so long as they only support one. Because those conditions are PERFECTLY legally.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

But you have no problem with it being perfectly legal for men to do men and for a man or woman to have multiple partners so long as they only support one. Because those conditions are PERFECTLY legally.

They may be legal today... but not because of my vote. (you must have me confused with someone else)

In fact, this polygamist problem is a perfect example of one of the "alternative" sexual practices that we can expect to follow after gay marriage "opens the door"...which is one reason why I want the door shut tight on gay marriage.

I think you agree?

 

[Ravi]

why is man on man sex the first thing that comes to mind???...

lol!

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

You are the one who's hysterical. If you have any brains your smug liberal beliefs are disintegrating before your very eyes as the evils of polygamy surface...child rape and abuse are just part and parcel of the practice.

If you can drop the denial you will realize that polygamy is actually very sick and destructive in nature and not only leads to harming the innocent but is also a danger to society in general.

Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states and with good reason. Our ancestors were correct in banning it from society.

There is a tremendous amount of information at http://www.thehopeorg.org about all of this, and there are many letters and articles of support by mainstrean LDS folks for what Texas has done.

The internicene wars of the LeBarons, along with the murders of Rulon Allred and others shows that there are some people with some serious issues in these groups.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ervil_lebaron_cult/index.html

http://www.thehopeorg.org

I don't subscribe to their dogma, but this sort of thing does not do much good for the mainstream Mormons who believe a little differently than average Christians, but are, for the most part, pretty decent folks.

 

[Care4all]

While I have serious reservations about polygamy and have no desire to engage in it myself I think you are making a stretch that polygamy causes these behaviors.

Oh, and the part about the "man" having to provide for so many families...what a laugh. Like the multiple wives or multiple husbands can't get jobs themselves.

I was thinking this the other day....I thought at first as you....don't really agree with polygyny (the form of polygamy where the man has many wives), but if all these women and men are adults then this is fine with me....they can do what they want or will....and I said such on one of these threads, adding that what concerned me was the young girls being married off to these old men before the age of adulthood.

welllllll..........I have been doing more reading on the subject and pondering on it and I realized that there is no question that free will IS NOT INVOLVED when it comes to these people in this sect.

Why? Well, because the only way these women can accept this enslavement in my opinion is by being issolated from society, and told over and over again that the way things are there are normal and the will of God...

a Cult and mind control...brainwashing from youth.

So even if these women are 18 when they are married off to the old fogey elders of their Church, at that point in their lives, they have been brainwashed to believe multiple wives is what is expected and right and just....just plain ole brainwashed....they have no choices, they have no free will, they can not just leave this compound on their own free will....they are controlled through their minds....

This is not a healthy situation and a mental kidnapping of sorts....ABUSE...even for the adult wives imo.

Care

 

[AllieBaba]

I object to the assumption that if it isn't something you adhere to, then the people who engage in it are deviant or brainwashed.

Do you feel the same about Hindu and Muslim marriage practices?

 

[Ravi]

I was thinking this the other day....I thought at first as you....don't really agree with polygyny (the form of polygamy where the man has many wives), but if all these women and men are adults then this is fine with me....they can do what they want or will....and I said such on one of these threads, adding that what concerned me was the young girls being married off to these old men before the age of adulthood.

welllllll..........I have been doing more reading on the subject and pondering on it and I realized that there is no question that free will IS NOT INVOLVED when it comes to these people in this sect.

Why? Well, because the only way these women can accept this enslavement in my opinion is by being issolated from society, and told over and over again that the way things are there are normal and the will of God...

a Cult and mind control...brainwashing from youth.

So even if these women are 18 when they are married off to the old fogey elders of their Church, at that point in their lives, they have been brainwashed to believe multiple wives is what is expected and right and just....just plain ole brainwashed....they have no choices, they have no free will, they can not just leave this compound on their own free will....they are controlled through their minds....

This is not a healthy situation and a mental kidnapping of sorts....ABUSE...even for the adult wives imo.

Care

I agree with this. I was more thinking outside of these sects. Cults can't survive unless free will is undermined.

 

[BrianH]

I object to the assumption that if it isn't something you adhere to, then the people who engage in it are deviant or brainwashed.

Do you feel the same about Hindu and Muslim marriage practices?

Those things aren't illegal according to LAW.

Fact 1: Polygamy is ILLEGAL in Texas. 1st justification for action.
Fact 2: This sect "breaks" it's baby in a form of beating and water-torture.
(This is endangering a child and abusive-not to meniton sadistic-- ILLEGAL in most, if not all, states)
--this is 2nd justification for action.
Fact 3: This sect marries off underaged girls to older men (without
consent of the state. Then the men force them to have sex.
ILLEGAL in Texas and I'm sure the rest of the nation.
--Thie is the 3rd justification for action.

What is it that you do not comprehend. This sect was lucky the state did not raid them earlier than this, considering polygamy is ILLEGAL. When Muslims start chopping off their children's arms in the New York street--for sneaking a cookie, then the Muslim's that did this will have a problem.

 

[Larkinn]

Those things aren't illegal according to LAW.

Fact 1: Polygamy is ILLEGAL in Texas. 1st justification for action.
Fact 2: This sect "breaks" it's baby in a form of beating and water-torture.
(This is endangering a child and abusive-not to meniton sadistic-- ILLEGAL in most, if not all, states)
--this is 2nd justification for action.
Fact 3: This sect marries off underaged girls to older men (without
consent of the state. Then the men force them to have sex.
ILLEGAL in Texas and I'm sure the rest of the nation.
--Thie is the 3rd justification for action.

What is it that you do not comprehend. This sect was lucky the state did not raid them earlier than this, considering polygamy is ILLEGAL. When Muslims start chopping off their children's arms in the New York street--for sneaking a cookie, then the Muslim's that did this will have a problem.

Fact 1 and Fact 3 are in contradiction. Polygamy is illegal only if you are legally married to multiple partners. You can cohabit and sleep with as many people you like.

What is the evidence of Fact 2?

 

[AllieBaba]

There's a woman making the circuit who claims this is the way the leader of the sect (who is now in prison, so has nothing to do with this recent raid) dealt with children.

 

[Care4all]

I object to the assumption that if it isn't something you adhere to, then the people who engage in it are deviant or brainwashed.

Maybe you should do some research on cults and how they operate. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that isolation and mind control FROM YOUTH is critical for this cult/sect to acheive their male dominance, we are NOT ALL CREATED EQUAL, power and control OVER these women and children.

To deny such is calling women stupid imo, and we are NOT stupid so, mind control from youth is what makes this situation even achievable, by the males in this sect is what conclusion I come to....

And of course there are women outside of this compound that may want to be housewives, or may want to submit to their husband as Christ submitted to the church...but to me, this would be at the free will of the woman to do such, because they were reared in society and not held captive to the preachings of their parents alone in a compound...so free will is present.....imo.

 

[BrianH]

There's a woman making the circuit who claims this is the way the leader of the sect (who is now in prison, so has nothing to do with this recent raid) dealt with children.

Ok, first...you're ignoring the fact that POLYGAMY is ILLEGAL in TEXAS.

Second, he's THE LEADER of the church...which means everyone else FOLLOWS.

If the pope was advocating sexual/physical abuse on a child, you'd have alot of unhappy Catholics, and there would be raids on any Catholics who followed that Doctrin (here in the U.S. anyway). You make it sound like just because he's in prison, they don't follow his teachings. He's a prophet to them, he's free to write all the letters from prison that he wants to direct them what to do. The sole fact that they guy is in prison during the raid, doesn't change the fact that POLYGAMY is illegal. And it also doesn't change the fact that beating and torturing your kids with water is also illegal, no matter who's done it and where they are at the time of the raid. Law enforcement doesn't just leave 500 lbs. of coke in a drug-dealers house and give the guy a pass because he was in Arizona at the time, or wherever else. These people follow leader and other leaders who are sex-offenders and abusive to women and children. With any luck, this raid will be the best thing that ever happen to these children.

 

[AllieBaba]

No, I haven't ignored it. I have addressed it repeatedly, and Larkinn just addressed it.

At any rate, it isn't an offense for which CHILDREN ARE TAKEN FROM THEIR MOTHERS.

No, everybody does NOT follow leaders of the church. If they did, every person who had ever had a priest who molested a child would be subject to having their kids yanked, as well.

 

[Larkinn]

Ok, first...you're ignoring the fact that POLYGAMY is ILLEGAL in TEXAS.

But you claim that they aren't legally married, and hence it doesn't fall under the statute.

Its illegal to be married to multiple people. Its NOT illegal to have sex with multiple people.

Second, he's THE LEADER of the church...which means everyone else FOLLOWS.

Your going to need a bit more evidence than that to justify taking peoples kids away and invading their property.

If the pope was advocating sexual/physical abuse on a child, you'd have alot of unhappy Catholics, and there would be raids on any Catholics who followed that Doctrin (here in the U.S. anyway).

Yes...notice that there would be raids on those who followed the doctrine. There would not be a presumption of guilt for anyone who is Catholic.

 

[BrianH]

No, I haven't ignored it. I have addressed it repeatedly, and Larkinn just addressed it.

At any rate, it isn't an offense for which CHILDREN ARE TAKEN FROM THEIR MOTHERS.

No, everybody does NOT follow leaders of the church. If they did, every person who had ever had a priest who molested a child would be subject to having their kids yanked, as well.

FIRST OFF, the PRIEST is not the head of the religion. If the frickin pope started advocating child-molestation, and the parents went along with it, then hell yeah, take away their kids. But the sole fact that the priest molested the kids, and the parents ___DID NOT KNOW___ is the sole factor here. You're analogy is completely not representative of the argument.

Any illegal activity committed by parents is grounds for taking children away from the parents---especially when the parents KNOW that an illegal activity is taking place. Parents doing drugs in their home is grounds for the CPS to take their kids away. A man running a brothel out of his home is grounds for taking kids away. Therfore, the illegal activity of POLYGAMY is grounds for the same treatment.
The Women here were brainwashed from birth, so in their defense, they don't know any better. That's why it's a dangerous situation for the kids(because the mothers don't know any better). If you don't know that it's dangerous to walk into the free-way at 5:00 P.M., you'd do it without concern. If a mother doesn't know that forceful marriage of her 16 year-old is wrong, then she'll allow it, like she's been "trained."

THEY BELIEVE THE LEADER IS A PROPHET OF GOD. EVERYONE FOLLOWS THE LEADER

 

[Larkinn]

Maybe you should do some research on cults and how they operate. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that issolation and mind control FROM YOUTH is critical for this cult/sect to acheive their male dominance, we are NOT ALL CREATED EQUAL, power and control OVER these women and children.

If there is no doubt you aren't considering it carefully. Could they be brainedwashed? Sure. What the hell does brainwashed even mean? That they are influenced by ideas we don't like and so follow some of them?

To deny such is calling women stupid imo, and we are NOT stupid so, mind control from youth is what makes this situation even achievable, by the males in this sect is what conclusion I come to....

Err, to say that they are making their own choice is to call them stupid? How does that work?

And of course there are women outside of this compound that may want to be housewives, or may want to submit to their husband as Christ submitted to the church...but to me, this would be at the free will of the woman to do such, because they were reared in society and not held captive to the preachings of their parents alone in a compound...so free will is present.....imo.

Free will is always present. Its just whether they choose to exercise that or not.

 

[AllieBaba]

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't give you the right to wade into people's homes and take their children. If we could do that, as I've said before, we should be wading into abortion clinics and taking all the underaged girls into custody because they shouldn't be pregnant.

We live in the USA. Ppl all over live alternate lifestyles, and they drag their kids with them. YOu don't have to like it, but you CANNOT use force to stop it.

YOu are obviously of the belief that "the end justifies the mean" but you need to stop and remember, this is exactly what the ppl who burned the witches thought. They thought what they were doing was right and good and they did it in the name of protecting innocent people.

But you can't do that, because in the end, you could very well be wrong. The rules are there for a reason.

Yes, there's a woman running around (promoting her book) who claims she saw the guy who IS IN PRISON abuse a child. But he's in prison, and there have been no claims that any of the other kids are being abused. There have been no complaints from the women who are there now that they object to their lifestyle. You can't just assume they don't know any better because you don't like their philosophy and separate them from their kids until you can get them to "confess". That's the way the Inquisition worked.

 

[Larkinn]

Any illegal activity committed by parents is grounds for taking children away from the parents---especially when the parents KNOW that an illegal activity is taking place.

No, its really not.

Parents doing drugs in their home is grounds for the CPS to take their kids away. A man running a brothel out of his home is grounds for taking kids away. Therfore, the illegal activity of POLYGAMY is grounds for the same treatment.

CPS isn't going to take your kids away because you smoke Pot. It has less to do with the illegality of the actions and more to do with the possible harmfulness to the child.

Again, were these people legally married to more than one person? if not it was not illegal under Texas law.

The Women here were brainwashed from birth, so in their defense, they don't know any better. That's why it's a dangerous situation for the kids(because the mothers don't know any better). If you don't know that it's dangerous to walk into the free-way at 5:00 P.M., you'd do it without concern. If a mother doesn't know that forceful marriage of her 16 year-old is wrong, then she'll allow it, like she's been "trained."

Interesting...so our morals are taught to us by others? No inbred morals? Sounds a bit like...brainwashing to me.

 

[BrianH]

But you claim that they aren't legally married, and hence it doesn't fall under the statute.

Its illegal to be married to multiple people. Its NOT illegal to have sex with multiple people.

Under Texas law, you are considered married under COMMON LAW MARRIAGE or de facto Marriage. Cohabitation is a determing factor in behind common-law married. This would have been established given they became residents of the state. And it is illegal for a 18+ year old to have sex with a n 17- male/female.


Your going to need a bit more evidence than that to justify taking peoples kids away and invading their property.

Considering they would be common law married under Texas Law, Polygamy would be consdiderd an illegal activity--grounds for taking away children. Not to mention the numerous other infractions--beating/torturing infants, marrying underage girls, forcing sex upon them (a bed in the temple?) come on...


Yes...notice that there would be raids on those who followed the doctrine. There would not be a presumption of guilt for anyone who is Catholic.

I'm glad you agree, but I don't need you to tell me that I'm right. Are you suggesting that this is the only sect? I don't see all of the Mormon fundamentalist sects being raided....just this one. If their was one specific Catholic church that practiced the moletstation of boys, that entire church would have problems...much like this sect. The entire mormon fundamentalist community isn't being punished. Even other members (in other states) from this sect are not being punished. There are other compounds and churches of this same sect that aren't being punished. This particular compound is for it's illegal activities in accordance with Texas state law.