more from Ilan Pappe

Thanks for the bump, Sally.

Actually, Amity, all you are showing is that you are some robot who has a tape pushed into some slot in your body each morning so you can post ad nauseam the same stuff as you posted the day before. I hope once in a while they remember to oil your joints. At least they don't have to give robots coffee, lunch or dinner breaks. Then at night they roll you into the closet, and the next day roll you out to begin all over again.

Relax, I enjoy a lecture from a guy who insists there was no 1948 War and that the King of Jordan was paid off by some rich Jews to video some hysterical crying that his military was wiped out so that he could easily expel the undesirables under the aegis of Israel.

And don't forget, Syria also had nothing to do with the mythical 1948 war.
 
my gawd, girl.
Somebody please teach her a new song!

Isn't it time you started singing a new song? You are posting the same nonsense ad nauseam while so much of the Middle East is basically "on fire."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENskEQL7y7w]ALICIA KEYS - GIRL ON FIRE ( TRIBUTE TO PALESTINE WOMAN ) - YouTube[/ame]
 
Love it. thanks so much Tinmore.
 
my gawd, girl.
Somebody please teach her a new song!

Isn't it time you started singing a new song? You are posting the same nonsense ad nauseam while so much of the Middle East is basically "on fire."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENskEQL7y7w]ALICIA KEYS - GIRL ON FIRE ( TRIBUTE TO PALESTINE WOMAN ) - YouTube[/ame]

The big question is, Mr. Tinmore, do you have your bags packed in anticipation of all the Arabs swarming into Israel? Since the following is the populatio of "Palestinians" in the U.S., perhaps you should arrange to charter some planes. Why not arrange for some Arabic music to be piped in so everyone can enjoy the trip.

United States – 270,000
 
Sally, are you having a nightmare? You seem all obsessed again, girl.
 
Sally, are you having a nightmare? You seem all obsessed again, girl.

Are you on some Merry Go Round that you can't get off which makes you post day and night and night and day. Be sure to have your robot joints oiled a little tomorrow. Even a robot needs a little help when the robot is programmed to go on and on and on like the needle is stuck on her old time record player.. A squirt of oil in both legs and arms will do you a world of good. I wonder if Amity looks like the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz except she has a bow on her tin head.
 
Ladies...the TOPIC please...lets get back to Ilain Pappe...don't think robots are part of that
 
Like I said, look at who has published him? Cambridge, Oxford, Yale.

He obviously is highly thought of among unbiased historians.

He not only has a great deal of credibility, Lord love him, he has had access to Israeli archives that the Palestinians don't. He has consistently done the honorable thing.
 
Aha. So tell me, is the Syrian lady Wafa Sultan a credible pychiatrist knowledgeable in the Middle East who consistantly does the honorable thing by telling the truth & backing it up with documentation?


Like I said, look at who has published him? Cambridge, Oxford, Yale.

He obviously is highly thought of among unbiased historians.

He not only has a great deal of credibility, Lord love him, he has had access to Israeli archives that the Palestinians don't. He has consistently done the honorable thing.
 
Aha. So tell me, is the Syrian lady Wafa Sultan a credible pychiatrist knowledgeable in the Middle East who consistantly does the honorable thing by telling the truth & backing it up with documentation?


Like I said, look at who has published him? Cambridge, Oxford, Yale.

He obviously is highly thought of among unbiased historians.

He not only has a great deal of credibility, Lord love him, he has had access to Israeli archives that the Palestinians don't. He has consistently done the honorable thing.

One thing, MJB, Mrs. Sultan had a career as a psychiatrist while Amity is just a young woman convert who probably sits at her cmputer day and night in a burkha and is not allowed to go out and get a job. It looks like she isn't allowed to even get out for some sunshine and exercise or to hang out with some young women her own age. Kudos to Mrs. Sultan and all those like her who speak out.
 
Aha. So tell me, is the Syrian lady Wafa Sultan a credible pychiatrist knowledgeable in the Middle East who consistantly does the honorable thing by telling the truth & backing it up with documentation?


Like I said, look at who has published him? Cambridge, Oxford, Yale.

He obviously is highly thought of among unbiased historians.

He not only has a great deal of credibility, Lord love him, he has had access to Israeli archives that the Palestinians don't. He has consistently done the honorable thing.

Who is she, where affiliated, and who publishes her?
 
amity1844, et al,

I skimmed her book; but can't claimed to have really read and digested it.

Aha. So tell me, is the Syrian lady Wafa Sultan a credible pychiatrist knowledgeable in the Middle East who consistantly does the honorable thing by telling the truth & backing it up with documentation?

Like I said, look at who has published him? Cambridge, Oxford, Yale.

He obviously is highly thought of among unbiased historians.

He not only has a great deal of credibility, Lord love him, he has had access to Israeli archives that the Palestinians don't. He has consistently done the honorable thing.

Who is she, where affiliated, and who publishes her?
(REFERENCE)

A God Who Hates: The Courageous Woman Who Inflamed the Muslim World Speaks Out Against the Evils of Islam
ISBN-13: 9780312538354
Publisher: St. Martin's Press
Publication date: 10/13/2009
Pages: 256

WAFA SULTAN is a Syrian-born American psychiatrist included on Time Magazine's list of the 100 Most Influential People in the World in 2006. She created a firestorm on Al-Jazeera as the first Arab Muslim woman on that network who demanded to be heard.

(COMMENT)

She has been described as:

  • "Great heroine of our times" — Robert Spencer, author of the New York Times bestsellers The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) and The Truth About Muhammad
  • "With rare courage and candor," — Diana West, author of The Death of the Grown-Up: How AmericaÂ’s Arrested Development is Bringing Down Western Civilization

I suppose, like many non-Syrians or Americans unfamiliar with the Middle East, it was the 2006 interview with Al-Jazeer when Wafa Sultan became noticed. Her performance was , by many accounts - mesmerizing. Although I did not understand - merely reading the subtitles.

She is worth a few moments of your time to hear her perspective.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Well, if she thinks that the Muslim God hates, then that is really of not much consequence.
I'm sure some like it, to me it is just hateful and arbitrary and not very important.

In the end what one person thinks of Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Jainism, or Hinduism is sort of irrelevant, and here's why..

Any analysis of religion is like the Hindu parable of the blind men and the elephant (one grabs the trunk, the other the tail, one a leg, and the fourth the flank and each describes a totally different animal, none realizing how limited their knowledge is).

Religion is always so multifaceted and culturally overdetermined that whatever aspect you analyze can only give a partial view at best. You can point to anti-abortion activists an say "that's Christianity" or you can just as easily point to Theresa of Avila, or Tammy Faye Baker, or the ancient Stylites, or the Albigensians, the Hussites, Haile Selassie or the current Coptic archbishop of Rome, or the JW who just knocked on my door. They're all Christians, but it just highlights the fact that it is almost impossible to say anything coherent about Christianity.

Ditto for Muslims. So, hats off to you for trying lady, but I won't be buying your book. Especially since she sounds sort of hostile to her subject matter, a sure sign of an author who should have kept her mouth shut. You really can't make very many blanket statements about anyone's religion, and its tacky to try.
 
Last edited:
Well, if she thinks that the Muslim God hates, then that is really of not much consequence.
I'm sure some like it, to me it is just hateful and arbitrary and not very important.

In the end what one person thinks of Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Jainism, or Hinduism is sort of irrelevant, and here's why..

Any analysis of religion is like the Hindu parable of the blind men and the elephant (one grabs the trunk, the other the tail, one a leg, and the fourth the flank and each describes a totally different animal, none realizing how limited their knowledge is).

Religion is always so multifaceted and culturally overdetermined that whatever aspect you analyze can only give a partial view at best. You can point to anti-abortion activists an say "that's Christianity" or you can just as easily point to Theresa of Avila, or Tammy Faye Baker, or the ancient Stylites, or the Albigensians, the Hussites, Haile Selassie or the current Coptic archbishop of Rome, or the JW who just knocked on my door. They're all Christians, but it just highlights the fact that it is almost impossible to say anything coherent about Christianity.

Ditto for Muslims. So, hats off to you for trying lady, but I won't be buying your book. Especially since she sounds sort of hostile to her subject matter, a sure sign of an author who should have kept her mouth shut. You really can't make very many blanket statements about anyone's religion, and its tacky to try.

There is only one, what Thomas Aquinas called The Prime Mover." However, it is what is written by the originators of religions and those who succeed them that is important. Can you tell us what the Hadiths say of those who do not practice Islam? Can you tell us what it says about having tolerance toward every religion? Do any of the Hadiths say that it is OK for someone to drop out of the religion and become an apostate without being killed for it?
 
15th post
Here is another interview in which Professor Pappe talks about his personal journey.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
et al,

The professor (Ilan Pappe) makes it very clear in the beginning of his presentation, that --- in the formative years, especially during his advance education experiences, that he was heavily exposed to the Arab Palestinian perspective. For those of us who have been to college - away from home, we know how the need to bond becomes so strong. He recounts this like some many that have been held under duress --- as if a victim of the Stockholm Syndrome. I have seen this before, and we are likely to see it again (many times). I have no question that he strongly believes his perspective is the only logical perspective to hold, to the point he has become evangelistic in its presentation.

As a point of order, his work is singularly special, and quite scholarly. And I believe it will play a part in the development of the history, once the conflict is settled. But I'm not sure his perspective is the way to interpret the historical record. And even he admits that it leans in favor of the Arab Oral History, as appose to the Jewish Oral History which he questions.

We must respect his work, yet it is important to remember that even great works can be flawed. Just as we respect Johannes Kepler (the great German mathematician and astronomer) for his work on the original laws of planetary motion; yet we know they were flawed - we still study him and his reasoning.

Ladies...the TOPIC please...lets get back to Ilain Pappe...don't think robots are part of that
(COMMENT)

Professor Pappe cites three very important point which he interprets in his own way.

  • The "myth" between the force projection capabilities of the Combined Arab Forces in comparison to the Israel Forces.
    • The idea is that the Arab Armies never had a chance at defeating the Israelis; but, that the Israelis propagandized the 1948 war as the "eve of destruction" to garnish political support.
      • If the Arab League understood at the outset that they had no chance of defeating, why did they initiate a coordinated attack?
  • The March 1948 decision to displace the Arab Palestinian population; and the prior agreement made between the Israelis and the Jordanians over the West Bank and its disposition.
    • Notice that the March date is stipulated. That would be the month following the solemn oath threat by the Arab High Committee:
      (a) The Arabs of Palestine will never recognise the validity of the extorted partition recommendations or the authority of the United Nations to make them.

      (b) The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense.

      (c) It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said Commission.

      (d) The United Nations or its Commission should not be misled to believe that its efforts in the partition plan will meet with any success. It will be far better for the eclipsed prestige of this organization not to start on this adventure.

      (e) The United Nations prestige will be better served by abandoning, not enforcing such an injustice.

      (f) The determination of every Arab in Palestine is to oppose in every way the partition of that country.

      (g) The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.​
    • This would be following the pre-arranged plan for a member of the Arab aggressor force (Jordan) to occupy the West Bank in exchange for not attacking Israel.
      • If Israel moved the Arab Palestinians, was it a countermeasure to the threat to: "wipe them out — man, woman and child?" (A solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history.)
      • Did the pre-arranged agreement indicate a certain duplicity between members of the Arab League and Israel?
      • It is also implied that (in the book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and presentation) that Plan Dalet was a "blueprint for ethnic cleansing."
        • It doesn't assume that the coming conflict needed an over all strategy for dealing with the potential hostile Arabs in the region of conflict; rear area protection.
  • And the discrepancy between the Israel and Arab Palestinian on who was extending the olive branch in hand and who rejected the overture.
    • The implication is that the Arab League and the Arab High Committee, after failing to achieve territorial control over the Israeli territory by force, should then accept offer to accept the original Partition Plan arrangements under GA/RES/181(II).
      • The Arab State percentage.
      • The Jewish State Percentage.
      • The Internationalization of Jerusalem.
        (Stated explicitly in his presentation.)
    • This flies directly into the face of the 15 February 1948 Solemn Oath by the Arab Higher Committee, and suggests that it was Israel that refused to negotiate.

      5. United Nations Conciliation Commission for Palestine said:
      On 8 and 15 November 1949, the report declared, the Israeli and Arab delegations respectively communicated (A/1113) to the Commission their Governments position with regard to the required guarantees for the protection of and free access to the Holy Places outside the Jerusalem area. The Arab delegations submitted a joint declaration guaranteeing the protection of and free access to the Holy Places. The Israeli delegation reiterated its readiness to give similar guarantees.

      With respect to the territorial question, the Commission reported that the Arab delegations still adhered to the terms of the Protocol of 12 May and saw no reason to deviate from the proposals which they had already presented. The Israeli delegation reaffirmed its desire to open direct peace negotiations with each of the interested parties; it subsequently informed the Commission that since the whole future of the Conciliation Commission was under discussion in the General Assembly, it would be preferable to await the outcome of that discussion before embarking upon any long-term planning of the conciliation effort in the future.
      SOURCE: YEARBOOK OF THE UNITED NATIONS 1948-49
It is fairly clear, that two (or more) reasonable people can look at the facts, and the "oral history" (Professor Pappe's current focus) and interpret them differently. It is just as clear, that there was a mixed purpose to the motives behind the invasion by certain members of the Arab League alliance.

While Professor Pappe's work is relevant and illuminating in some respects, it is still a personal perspective in which he accepts certain oral histories and rejects others that do not conform to the position and agenda he holds. His work holds many truths, but what those truth lead to as a conclusion, is still subjective.

There is no question that there are zionist (both then and now) that have an objective beyond the intentions of the Partition Plan. But there are also those that are motivated by the necessity to take certain actions in the protection and preservation of the Jewish National Home, called Israel.

Just as important, it the question of penalties and reparations for the aggression demonstrated by the Arab League and the hostile associated parties in the 1948 War. The Arabs Palestinians cannot expect that they can just invade a country, lose the war, and then call time-out and attempt to reset the field with out an consequences. The Arab Palestinian, as hard-lined as they are, must clearly see that there are consequences for their actions; without regard to the errors in judgment and political mistake made by the Israelis in the heat of a War of Independence.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Thanks, Rocco for your perspective.

The relatively brief time Pappe spent among Palestinians hardly qualifies him as a potential sufferer from Stockholm syndrome. He was neither held hostage, nor was he part of a tiny powerless minority vulnerable to a much larger hostile force, as required to fit the paradigm of Stockholm syndrome. In fact Dr. Pappe was already an intellectually and emotionally mature adult whose association with Palestinians was undertaken by choice and informed by the direction his research was already leading him. In addition, Dr. Pappe's most important contributions to scholarship in the field of Israeli/Palestinian history seem to not be those derived from Palestinian sources, but rather from Israeli and Zionist sources, and particularly from documentary archives.

Thank you for your insightful comments, they are much appreciated.
 
Thank you Coyote. Who but a fool would use Ilain Pappe as some credible source on Israeli/Palestinian history?


Ilan Pappe: "One of the World?s Sloppiest Historians" | New Republic






Ladies...the TOPIC please...lets get back to Ilain Pappe...don't think robots are part of that

I read this about 30 seconds after watching the first 12 minutes of the "Myth" video.
Pappe's logic and history is embarrassingly flawed and he seems to be hugely ignored.
The Google links are repetitious except for this one.
 

New Topics

Back
Top Bottom