Minority kids are stupid

[OldLady]

That's what I've heard, anyway.

Just got back from a program in the kindergarten class my older daughter teaches at a Charter school. A class in which they know cursive, can read books, and can do third grade math by the time the year is over. In kindergarten.

Anyway, they recited all the states and the state capitols, both as a group and individually; they answered questions on American history and geography; they recited the first part of the Gettysburg Address. And they did one mean bunny hop a couple of times in between.

This class is about 80% black or brown.

This class isn't about your skin color or how much money your parents have. It's about maintaining standards and expectations, giving kids pride in their own achievements, and holding them accountable for their actions.

I'll bet we all know this. Some just refuse to admit it.
.

Seems your OP was composed with good intentions, and I personally celebrate the academic success of any child. My sole issue with it? You had to go full identity politics to make your point. Myself? I married into an East Indian Family who is by and large, on all its sides, overflowing with PhD's, Masters of Science degrees (primarily in engineering), and ER Surgeons. My point? Do the brown people in my by law family count or does your narrative venerate only poor minorities? Further, and without any knowledge of your own cultural heritage, sounds to me as if you are making your point here at the expense of non-brown folks. Just kind of has that ring to it.

Well, there are elements in it that either end of the spectrum may not like.

As you can tell by some of the comments from right wingers on this thread, some feel that skin color DOES indicate a lack of intellect, as I inferred - the old fashioned bigotry of real racism. At the same time, there are many of the Left who seem more than willing to lower standards and expectations for people who have darker skin color because they fall into the Left's "oppressed victim group" status. So there's something for each end, I suppose.

For the record, I'm of mixed race, married into another mixed race family, and I'm not a fan of the way either end of the spectrum approaches either race or education.

Thanks for the civil response, by the way. Much appreciated.
.

The point I wished to make? Let's say we have three different students in a given class who are all "brown". Johnny, Dennis and Phil. Why not focus on the fact that each of them possesses their own unique academic potential as individual human children, rather than classify them into a racial unit (being brown) and then quantify their performance as that group rating or as a measuring stick of their potential performance? That's all I'm saying. And also that it's a sad damned day in this world if people actually think skin color or heritage lessens an individual's academic potential. Cultures and ideologies do this to our children (stunt their potential) surely, but never racial/ethnic origin.

I really think Mac mentioned the students' race(s) because he was countering the belief among some here that those kids ARE dumb. It would be lovely to think that the world always thinks in terms of fairness and individual accomplishments, but that is not how the world works. Not the USMB world, anyway.

 

[Unkotare]

I just showed you 30% flunk/drop out.

I'm so glad I got my college degree but it could have been done a better way. They should have a 2 year sales associates rather than make me go 4 years to a business school just to get out and be a salesperson. I didn't need all that.

They need to make better 2 year degrees too and have them be worth something to employers. So rather than make the kid try to get a 4 year degree, which is hard and a lot of work, they could just get a 2 year associates

but right now an associates is worthless pretty much in the business world. That's bullshit.

I can't argue with you too much. It's a racket that's for sure.

Most kids who want to go to college but drop out don't want to go into a trade. They don't know what they want to do. That's why they go to college. Not all but a lot. And that's why a lot drop out or get kicked out.

So that's another thing teachers are doing wrong. Their kids graduate and they don't even know what they want to do. Why does it take humans so long to mature?

Expecting teachers to decide for kids what they want to do with their lives? Is that asking a bit much? THINK about it.
School did not used to be solely for the purpose of getting a job. Now it is. This whole push for EVERYONE to go to college or trade school after high school is silly when you think about why that is. It is because high school doesn't prepare you to make a living wage and doesn't teach the skills necessary to get on in life. But instead of improving the K-12 curriculum and standards, they push two years of a trade school or four years of college that costs $$$$ instead. Makes no sense for most people.

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

Working with others, writing, power point presentations, leadership skills, public speaking, reading, critical thinking.

....

All are taught in high school.

No they aren't.

This is another of the very frequent times that I know better than you about the topic.


Yes, they are.

 

[sealybobo]

I just showed you 30% flunk/drop out.

I'm so glad I got my college degree but it could have been done a better way. They should have a 2 year sales associates rather than make me go 4 years to a business school just to get out and be a salesperson. I didn't need all that.

They need to make better 2 year degrees too and have them be worth something to employers. So rather than make the kid try to get a 4 year degree, which is hard and a lot of work, they could just get a 2 year associates

but right now an associates is worthless pretty much in the business world. That's bullshit.

I can't argue with you too much. It's a racket that's for sure.

Most kids who want to go to college but drop out don't want to go into a trade. They don't know what they want to do. That's why they go to college. Not all but a lot. And that's why a lot drop out or get kicked out.

So that's another thing teachers are doing wrong. Their kids graduate and they don't even know what they want to do. Why does it take humans so long to mature?

Expecting teachers to decide for kids what they want to do with their lives? Is that asking a bit much? THINK about it.
School did not used to be solely for the purpose of getting a job. Now it is. This whole push for EVERYONE to go to college or trade school after high school is silly when you think about why that is. It is because high school doesn't prepare you to make a living wage and doesn't teach the skills necessary to get on in life. But instead of improving the K-12 curriculum and standards, they push two years of a trade school or four years of college that costs $$$$ instead. Makes no sense for most people.

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

I don't think your freshman experience is all that unusual, Sealy. I heard once that colleges INTENTIONALLY make freshman year difficult--those required 101 classes? They are designed to "weed out" the disinterested or the really weak students. Every campus will tell you there is an exodus from their dorms every October/November, freshmen saying they can't cope.
Good for you for toughing it out. I'm not sure that you should be blaming your public education for the tough time you had your first year. It's a big transition. Kids in private high schools (read prep schools) are of course focusing on college skills. Not everyone in public school is and many couldn't even if they wanted to. So actually, once you got your feet under you and got rid of the extracurricular distractions, you did great. Maybe you could thank your public education for THAT, too.

Shhh stop making sense I'm dealing with 2 idiot conservative teachers who are probably lousy at their jobs.

 

[Papageorgio]

My grandkids have career fairs in their elementary school. K-5 meeting with colleges and military recruiters. Just far away from my days of school.

There are 8th graders writing programs for games and other cool stuff. Building bridges with popsicle sticks that can with can handle 150 lbs psi of pressure.

I don't think they are meeting with military recruiters, since recruiters are barred from talking to anyone that is not within 30 days of their 17th birthday or older.

A good recruiter would also not have time to waste on that fluff!

They have the military there, whether they are recruiters or not they are there.

 

[Mac1958]

That's what I've heard, anyway.

Just got back from a program in the kindergarten class my older daughter teaches at a Charter school. A class in which they know cursive, can read books, and can do third grade math by the time the year is over. In kindergarten.

Anyway, they recited all the states and the state capitols, both as a group and individually; they answered questions on American history and geography; they recited the first part of the Gettysburg Address. And they did one mean bunny hop a couple of times in between.

This class is about 80% black or brown.

This class isn't about your skin color or how much money your parents have. It's about maintaining standards and expectations, giving kids pride in their own achievements, and holding them accountable for their actions.

I'll bet we all know this. Some just refuse to admit it.
.

Seems your OP was composed with good intentions, and I personally celebrate the academic success of any child. My sole issue with it? You had to go full identity politics to make your point. Myself? I married into an East Indian Family who is by and large, on all its sides, overflowing with PhD's, Masters of Science degrees (primarily in engineering), and ER Surgeons. My point? Do the brown people in my by law family count or does your narrative venerate only poor minorities? Further, and without any knowledge of your own cultural heritage, sounds to me as if you are making your point here at the expense of non-brown folks. Just kind of has that ring to it.

Well, there are elements in it that either end of the spectrum may not like.

As you can tell by some of the comments from right wingers on this thread, some feel that skin color DOES indicate a lack of intellect, as I inferred - the old fashioned bigotry of real racism. At the same time, there are many of the Left who seem more than willing to lower standards and expectations for people who have darker skin color because they fall into the Left's "oppressed victim group" status. So there's something for each end, I suppose.

For the record, I'm of mixed race, married into another mixed race family, and I'm not a fan of the way either end of the spectrum approaches either race or education.

Thanks for the civil response, by the way. Much appreciated.
.

The point I wished to make? Let's say we have three different students in a given class who are all "brown". Johnny, Dennis and Phil. Why not focus on the fact that each of them possesses their own unique academic potential as individual human children, rather than classify them into a racial unit (being brown) and then quantify their performance as that group rating or as a measuring stick of their potential performance? That's all I'm saying. And also that it's a sad damned day in this world if people actually think skin color or heritage lessens an individual's academic potential. Cultures and ideologies do this to our children (stunt their potential) surely, but never racial/ethnic origin.

I couldn't agree more. The problem is that it's just not where we are now. In some ways our country moving further apart on this issue.

I brought up race for the reasons I described in my last post. My point is that race doesn't matter, but it clearly still does for many.
.

 

[sealybobo]

I just showed you 30% flunk/drop out.

I'm so glad I got my college degree but it could have been done a better way. They should have a 2 year sales associates rather than make me go 4 years to a business school just to get out and be a salesperson. I didn't need all that.

They need to make better 2 year degrees too and have them be worth something to employers. So rather than make the kid try to get a 4 year degree, which is hard and a lot of work, they could just get a 2 year associates

but right now an associates is worthless pretty much in the business world. That's bullshit.

I can't argue with you too much. It's a racket that's for sure.

Most kids who want to go to college but drop out don't want to go into a trade. They don't know what they want to do. That's why they go to college. Not all but a lot. And that's why a lot drop out or get kicked out.

So that's another thing teachers are doing wrong. Their kids graduate and they don't even know what they want to do. Why does it take humans so long to mature?

Expecting teachers to decide for kids what they want to do with their lives? Is that asking a bit much? THINK about it.
School did not used to be solely for the purpose of getting a job. Now it is. This whole push for EVERYONE to go to college or trade school after high school is silly when you think about why that is. It is because high school doesn't prepare you to make a living wage and doesn't teach the skills necessary to get on in life. But instead of improving the K-12 curriculum and standards, they push two years of a trade school or four years of college that costs $$$$ instead. Makes no sense for most people.

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

Howard Stern's mother always told him, "You're doing too much. Do one thing a day"

And there are other people who can't sit still. I call them sharks. Do you know a shark has to be constantly moving or they die? At least some shark that's true. So some people are never around for very long in any one place. They never get too close to anyone always with the excuse they are too busy and have to be somewhere else.

I told you my wrestling coach got a divorce? He spent too much time away from home and the wife and kids felt neglected. Sad really. Or maybe he's a dick and they are better off if he's away from home a lot.

I know guys who worked on the road 5 days a week and they were happily married but as soon as they retired they got a divorce. The wife couldn't stand looking at them all day.

 

[OldLady]

My grandkids have career fairs in their elementary school. K-5 meeting with colleges and military recruiters. Just far away from my days of school.

There are 8th graders writing programs for games and other cool stuff. Building bridges with popsicle sticks that can with can handle 150 lbs psi of pressure.

I don't think they are meeting with military recruiters, since recruiters are barred from talking to anyone that is not within 30 days of their 17th birthday or older.

A good recruiter would also not have time to waste on that fluff!

They have the military there, whether they are recruiters or not they are there.

Like the guy who always showed up at the county fair with his scaled down size fighter jet, just big enough for a kid to crawl into the cockpit seat. My little one would zero in on it and I'd be growling "don't go near it" and the smiling "not a recruiter" would be friendly as all get out while my baby told him how he wanted to be a soldier just like him.

 

[OldLady]

Expecting teachers to decide for kids what they want to do with their lives? Is that asking a bit much? THINK about it.
School did not used to be solely for the purpose of getting a job. Now it is. This whole push for EVERYONE to go to college or trade school after high school is silly when you think about why that is. It is because high school doesn't prepare you to make a living wage and doesn't teach the skills necessary to get on in life. But instead of improving the K-12 curriculum and standards, they push two years of a trade school or four years of college that costs $$$$ instead. Makes no sense for most people.

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

What about my brother? He struggled too early in college and now he's a VP of HR in a fortune 500. He got a masters from Michigan State University not because of our public high school but instead despite it.

You sound like the loser counselors/teachers in High school who told him something similar to what you just said. Boy did he prove them/you wrong.

What you said is the exact attitude a bad teacher has. To me this proves you are what I'm accusing you of being. A bad role model and teacher.

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. You certainly don't accept any blame for the failures. You said it yourself. I could almost quote you. You said, : Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming ME.

And some teachers don't have the knowledge, skills, ability, discipline or intelligence to get through to their students so they just go through the motions.

We could have 1 uninspiring teacher like unkotare teach 100 kids online for $30K a year. Why we pay teachers so much to teach in brick and mortar schools is beyond me. And we pay each teacher at least $70K plus benefits and a pension. We must break the teachers union. We must rethink how we educate the masses. If unkotare and teachers like him take no blame for the bad results we could do this for pennies on the dollar.

Sealy, kids HAVE to take some responsibility for their learning. C'mon, you know that. Picture yourself trying to motivate someone to do something they have no interest in. Unkotare is a hard ass and he doesn't hold his students by the hand. Some teachers hold their students hands so much they don't learn, either. You need to stop putting the blame for everything on teachers.

 

[sealybobo]

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

What about my brother? He struggled too early in college and now he's a VP of HR in a fortune 500. He got a masters from Michigan State University not because of our public high school but instead despite it.

You sound like the loser counselors/teachers in High school who told him something similar to what you just said. Boy did he prove them/you wrong.

What you said is the exact attitude a bad teacher has. To me this proves you are what I'm accusing you of being. A bad role model and teacher.

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. You certainly don't accept any blame for the failures. You said it yourself. I could almost quote you. You said, : Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming ME.

And some teachers don't have the knowledge, skills, ability, discipline or intelligence to get through to their students so they just go through the motions.

We could have 1 uninspiring teacher like unkotare teach 100 kids online for $30K a year. Why we pay teachers so much to teach in brick and mortar schools is beyond me. And we pay each teacher at least $70K plus benefits and a pension. We must break the teachers union. We must rethink how we educate the masses. If unkotare and teachers like him take no blame for the bad results we could do this for pennies on the dollar.

Sealy, kids HAVE to take some responsibility for their learning. C'mon, you know that. Picture yourself trying to motivate someone to do something they have no interest in. Unkotare is a hard ass and he doesn't hold his students by the hand. Some teachers hold their students hands so much they don't learn, either. You need to stop putting the blame for everything on teachers.

Is that what you thought I was doing? Putting the blame for everything on teachers? I was not. But "he who shall not be named" doesn't take any responsibility.

So much for the idea that there are good teachers and bad teachers. So much for suggesting that maybe there is a better way, which there is.

I'm not blaming just Unk I'm blaming the entire system.

So you agree with unk that first it's the parents fault, then it's the students fault and it's never the teachers fault? I believe that is his position. He says he is doing the best possible job educating young minds. No possible way it could be done better than what he is doing.

And don't you dare tell him he's wrong. He's the expert on this subject not us. But then that's like a prison guard saying there is nothing wrong with the current criminal justice system and we should just shut up because he is an expert and we are not. But then we look at recidivism rates and we see clearly prison guards are not doing a good job. You can't expect prison guards to reform the status quo. They defend it. They'll tell you they're doing the best anyone could possibly do. No way reforming the system will fix anything. Don't even bother trying.

Unkotare sounds like a prison guard who's defensive and not open to change.

 

[sealybobo]

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

What about my brother? He struggled too early in college and now he's a VP of HR in a fortune 500. He got a masters from Michigan State University not because of our public high school but instead despite it.

You sound like the loser counselors/teachers in High school who told him something similar to what you just said. Boy did he prove them/you wrong.

What you said is the exact attitude a bad teacher has. To me this proves you are what I'm accusing you of being. A bad role model and teacher.

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. You certainly don't accept any blame for the failures. You said it yourself. I could almost quote you. You said, : Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming ME.

And some teachers don't have the knowledge, skills, ability, discipline or intelligence to get through to their students so they just go through the motions.

We could have 1 uninspiring teacher like unkotare teach 100 kids online for $30K a year. Why we pay teachers so much to teach in brick and mortar schools is beyond me. And we pay each teacher at least $70K plus benefits and a pension. We must break the teachers union. We must rethink how we educate the masses. If unkotare and teachers like him take no blame for the bad results we could do this for pennies on the dollar.

Sealy, kids HAVE to take some responsibility for their learning. C'mon, you know that. Picture yourself trying to motivate someone to do something they have no interest in. Unkotare is a hard ass and he doesn't hold his students by the hand. Some teachers hold their students hands so much they don't learn, either. You need to stop putting the blame for everything on teachers.

If I were a teacher I would do something to encourage students to start a checking account. We did a mock stock buy my senior year and we watched the stock we picked to see how it was doing but it would have meant more if I had real money invested. And at the end of your senior year hopefully you have some walking around money to take to college with you.

 

[OldLady]

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

What about my brother? He struggled too early in college and now he's a VP of HR in a fortune 500. He got a masters from Michigan State University not because of our public high school but instead despite it.

You sound like the loser counselors/teachers in High school who told him something similar to what you just said. Boy did he prove them/you wrong.

What you said is the exact attitude a bad teacher has. To me this proves you are what I'm accusing you of being. A bad role model and teacher.

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. You certainly don't accept any blame for the failures. You said it yourself. I could almost quote you. You said, : Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming ME.

And some teachers don't have the knowledge, skills, ability, discipline or intelligence to get through to their students so they just go through the motions.

We could have 1 uninspiring teacher like unkotare teach 100 kids online for $30K a year. Why we pay teachers so much to teach in brick and mortar schools is beyond me. And we pay each teacher at least $70K plus benefits and a pension. We must break the teachers union. We must rethink how we educate the masses. If unkotare and teachers like him take no blame for the bad results we could do this for pennies on the dollar.

Sealy, kids HAVE to take some responsibility for their learning. C'mon, you know that. Picture yourself trying to motivate someone to do something they have no interest in. Unkotare is a hard ass and he doesn't hold his students by the hand. Some teachers hold their students hands so much they don't learn, either. You need to stop putting the blame for everything on teachers.

Is that what you thought I was doing? Putting the blame for everything on teachers? I was not. But "he who shall not be named" doesn't take any responsibility.

So much for the idea that there are good teachers and bad teachers. So much for suggesting that maybe there is a better way, which there is.

I'm not blaming just Unk I'm blaming the entire system.

So you agree with unk that first it's the parents fault, then it's the students fault and it's never the teachers fault? I believe that is his position. He says he is doing the best possible job educating young minds. No possible way it could be done better than what he is doing.

And don't you dare tell him he's wrong. He's the expert on this subject not us. But then that's like a prison guard saying there is nothing wrong with the current criminal justice system and we should just shut up because he is an expert and we are not. But then we look at recidivism rates and we see clearly prison guards are not doing a good job. You can't expect prison guards to reform the status quo. They defend it. They'll tell you they're doing the best anyone could possibly do. No way reforming the system will fix anything. Don't even bother trying.

Unkotare sounds like a prison guard who's defensive and not open to change.

Go easy, sealy. If I misunderstood you, my apologies.
No, I seldom agree with Unk on anything, including on how we approach students, but hard ass teachers with expectations they will NOT lower can sometimes get great results.

But this thread isn't about Unk, is it? I agree with you that changing the way people view the status quo is REALLY really hard. People don't want to be bothered. But Unk doesn't represent the entire educational system in this country, anymore than I do. Just take it a little easy.

 

[sealybobo]

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

What about my brother? He struggled too early in college and now he's a VP of HR in a fortune 500. He got a masters from Michigan State University not because of our public high school but instead despite it.

You sound like the loser counselors/teachers in High school who told him something similar to what you just said. Boy did he prove them/you wrong.

What you said is the exact attitude a bad teacher has. To me this proves you are what I'm accusing you of being. A bad role model and teacher.

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. You certainly don't accept any blame for the failures. You said it yourself. I could almost quote you. You said, : Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming ME.

And some teachers don't have the knowledge, skills, ability, discipline or intelligence to get through to their students so they just go through the motions.

We could have 1 uninspiring teacher like unkotare teach 100 kids online for $30K a year. Why we pay teachers so much to teach in brick and mortar schools is beyond me. And we pay each teacher at least $70K plus benefits and a pension. We must break the teachers union. We must rethink how we educate the masses. If unkotare and teachers like him take no blame for the bad results we could do this for pennies on the dollar.

Sealy, kids HAVE to take some responsibility for their learning. C'mon, you know that. Picture yourself trying to motivate someone to do something they have no interest in. Unkotare is a hard ass and he doesn't hold his students by the hand. Some teachers hold their students hands so much they don't learn, either. You need to stop putting the blame for everything on teachers.

Why would anyone go to college for 4 years to become a teacher? I'm not talking about a well paid public school teacher who gets benefits and a pension I'm talking about a non union teacher like the ones we find in private/charter schools.

Traditional public school teachers' average salary was $53,400, whereas charter school teachers' average salary was $44,500.

So unkotare and that other stupid lady are against their own unions but they don't realize it's why they still have jobs and why they make as much as they do. Collective bargaining.

Anyways, my question is this. If Republicans are going to break the teachers unions, why would any person in America go to college for 4 year to make $44K? I hear it costs $20K a year to go to school. I would not take out a $80K loan to make $44K a year.

 

[OldLady]

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

What about my brother? He struggled too early in college and now he's a VP of HR in a fortune 500. He got a masters from Michigan State University not because of our public high school but instead despite it.

You sound like the loser counselors/teachers in High school who told him something similar to what you just said. Boy did he prove them/you wrong.

What you said is the exact attitude a bad teacher has. To me this proves you are what I'm accusing you of being. A bad role model and teacher.

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. You certainly don't accept any blame for the failures. You said it yourself. I could almost quote you. You said, : Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming ME.

And some teachers don't have the knowledge, skills, ability, discipline or intelligence to get through to their students so they just go through the motions.

We could have 1 uninspiring teacher like unkotare teach 100 kids online for $30K a year. Why we pay teachers so much to teach in brick and mortar schools is beyond me. And we pay each teacher at least $70K plus benefits and a pension. We must break the teachers union. We must rethink how we educate the masses. If unkotare and teachers like him take no blame for the bad results we could do this for pennies on the dollar.

Sealy, kids HAVE to take some responsibility for their learning. C'mon, you know that. Picture yourself trying to motivate someone to do something they have no interest in. Unkotare is a hard ass and he doesn't hold his students by the hand. Some teachers hold their students hands so much they don't learn, either. You need to stop putting the blame for everything on teachers.

If I were a teacher I would do something to encourage students to start a checking account. We did a mock stock buy my senior year and we watched the stock we picked to see how it was doing but it would have meant more if I had real money invested. And at the end of your senior year hopefully you have some walking around money to take to college with you.

Checks are almost outdated now. People pay online and use their debit cards or credit cards. I write approximately ten checks a year now. But I sure do like the real life approach for learning some coping skills.

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

What about my brother? He struggled too early in college and now he's a VP of HR in a fortune 500. He got a masters from Michigan State University not because of our public high school but instead despite it.

You sound like the loser counselors/teachers in High school who told him something similar to what you just said. Boy did he prove them/you wrong.

What you said is the exact attitude a bad teacher has. To me this proves you are what I'm accusing you of being. A bad role model and teacher.

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. You certainly don't accept any blame for the failures. You said it yourself. I could almost quote you. You said, : Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming ME.

And some teachers don't have the knowledge, skills, ability, discipline or intelligence to get through to their students so they just go through the motions.

We could have 1 uninspiring teacher like unkotare teach 100 kids online for $30K a year. Why we pay teachers so much to teach in brick and mortar schools is beyond me. And we pay each teacher at least $70K plus benefits and a pension. We must break the teachers union. We must rethink how we educate the masses. If unkotare and teachers like him take no blame for the bad results we could do this for pennies on the dollar.

Sealy, kids HAVE to take some responsibility for their learning. C'mon, you know that. Picture yourself trying to motivate someone to do something they have no interest in. Unkotare is a hard ass and he doesn't hold his students by the hand. Some teachers hold their students hands so much they don't learn, either. You need to stop putting the blame for everything on teachers.

Why would anyone go to college for 4 years to become a teacher? I'm not talking about a well paid public school teacher who gets benefits and a pension I'm talking about a non union teacher like the ones we find in private/charter schools.

Traditional public school teachers' average salary was $53,400, whereas charter school teachers' average salary was $44,500.

So unkotare and that other stupid lady are against their own unions but they don't realize it's why they still have jobs and why they make as much as they do. Collective bargaining.

Anyways, my question is this. If Republicans are going to break the teachers unions, why would any person in America go to college for 4 year to make $44K? I hear it costs $20K a year to go to school. I would not take out a $80K loan to make $44K a year.

I know it. It's already pretty sad that with a 4 year degree, public school teachers make less than union trash collectors in NYC. But we do it because we love it. Believe me, if not, a teacher would never stick it out.

 

[SweetSue92]

..... You teach the way teachers have for hundreds of years. .....

You don't even realize how laughably ignorant that comment is.

He's easily one of the most ignorant posters I've ever read. And that is saying something.

You’re just mad because I attack you for being a republican teacher. Can’t get any more ignorant than that.

I'm not mad but your posts are an incoherent dumpster fire. In one post you're telling me I'm worthless, old and ugly and therefore shouldn't be teaching (really, folks); in the next post you say I'm NOT PAID ENOUGH because whatever, I'm Republican.

It's devoid of all logic. It's beyond repair, the steampile you post

 

[sealybobo]

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

What about my brother? He struggled too early in college and now he's a VP of HR in a fortune 500. He got a masters from Michigan State University not because of our public high school but instead despite it.

You sound like the loser counselors/teachers in High school who told him something similar to what you just said. Boy did he prove them/you wrong.

What you said is the exact attitude a bad teacher has. To me this proves you are what I'm accusing you of being. A bad role model and teacher.

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. You certainly don't accept any blame for the failures. You said it yourself. I could almost quote you. You said, : Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming ME.

And some teachers don't have the knowledge, skills, ability, discipline or intelligence to get through to their students so they just go through the motions.

We could have 1 uninspiring teacher like unkotare teach 100 kids online for $30K a year. Why we pay teachers so much to teach in brick and mortar schools is beyond me. And we pay each teacher at least $70K plus benefits and a pension. We must break the teachers union. We must rethink how we educate the masses. If unkotare and teachers like him take no blame for the bad results we could do this for pennies on the dollar.

Sealy, kids HAVE to take some responsibility for their learning. C'mon, you know that. Picture yourself trying to motivate someone to do something they have no interest in. Unkotare is a hard ass and he doesn't hold his students by the hand. Some teachers hold their students hands so much they don't learn, either. You need to stop putting the blame for everything on teachers.

If I were a teacher I would do something to encourage students to start a checking account. We did a mock stock buy my senior year and we watched the stock we picked to see how it was doing but it would have meant more if I had real money invested. And at the end of your senior year hopefully you have some walking around money to take to college with you.

Checks are almost outdated now. People pay online and use their debit cards or credit cards. I write approximately ten checks a year now. But I sure do like the real life approach for learning some coping skills.

My high school allowed me to skate by. I really paid for it in college. My first semester I got all C's and 1 C-. That's below a 2.0 so I was immediately on academic probation. I ended up quitting the wrestling team and the next semester I got a 3.8 GPA.

High school didn't prepare me to know how to study for 4-5 classes per semester. My nephews who go to a private school are already used to having lots of homework. College won't be a shock to them.

Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming high school for that individuals failure as a human being. Such people should stick to one thing and one thing only and probably live by and for themselves alone.

What about my brother? He struggled too early in college and now he's a VP of HR in a fortune 500. He got a masters from Michigan State University not because of our public high school but instead despite it.

You sound like the loser counselors/teachers in High school who told him something similar to what you just said. Boy did he prove them/you wrong.

What you said is the exact attitude a bad teacher has. To me this proves you are what I'm accusing you of being. A bad role model and teacher.

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. You certainly don't accept any blame for the failures. You said it yourself. I could almost quote you. You said, : Some kids just don’t have the maturity, discipline, or intelligence to manage their time while completing a variety of important tasks. If a kid shows up at college stupid, weak and lazy, there’s no point in blaming ME.

And some teachers don't have the knowledge, skills, ability, discipline or intelligence to get through to their students so they just go through the motions.

We could have 1 uninspiring teacher like unkotare teach 100 kids online for $30K a year. Why we pay teachers so much to teach in brick and mortar schools is beyond me. And we pay each teacher at least $70K plus benefits and a pension. We must break the teachers union. We must rethink how we educate the masses. If unkotare and teachers like him take no blame for the bad results we could do this for pennies on the dollar.

Sealy, kids HAVE to take some responsibility for their learning. C'mon, you know that. Picture yourself trying to motivate someone to do something they have no interest in. Unkotare is a hard ass and he doesn't hold his students by the hand. Some teachers hold their students hands so much they don't learn, either. You need to stop putting the blame for everything on teachers.

Why would anyone go to college for 4 years to become a teacher? I'm not talking about a well paid public school teacher who gets benefits and a pension I'm talking about a non union teacher like the ones we find in private/charter schools.

Traditional public school teachers' average salary was $53,400, whereas charter school teachers' average salary was $44,500.

So unkotare and that other stupid lady are against their own unions but they don't realize it's why they still have jobs and why they make as much as they do. Collective bargaining.

Anyways, my question is this. If Republicans are going to break the teachers unions, why would any person in America go to college for 4 year to make $44K? I hear it costs $20K a year to go to school. I would not take out a $80K loan to make $44K a year.

I know it. It's already pretty sad that with a 4 year degree, public school teachers make less than union trash collectors in NYC. But we do it because we love it. Believe me, if not, a teacher would never stick it out.

I know a lot of burned out teachers who are only still in it until they get their pension. They do not love it. The principle is leaning on the older higher paid teachers trying to run them out so they can replace them with younger cheaper teachers who won't be getting pensions.

I compare them to me a few years ago when the economy was bad and being a salesperson was tough. Like those burned out teachers, I wanted to do something else. ANYTHING else. But what? What pays as good as being in sales? And who will hire me to do that thing when all my experience is in sales.

Do you know it's even hard for a guy with a lot of inside sales experience to get an outside sales position? When the market is flooded with workers companies don't have to hire anyone who doesn't already have a lot of experience.

Even now when companies can't find good help they say, they still won't hire someone who doesn't have any experience. I find that fascinating that if the economy is as good as they say why aren't employers trying to steal people away by paying them more. I'm not hearing or seeing this happening as much as I should be. Things don't seem to be booming today like they were in 1996 lets just put it that way. Clinton had the best economy ever.

In fact we have new management at my company and they are trying to run a few guys out of here that don't make us money and are overpaid. Why don't they just quit and go find another job? I don't think it's that easy.

 

[SweetSue92]

That’s amazing... kudos to your daughter for doing an excellent job grooming our youth!

Yes it is amazing finding a teacher actually teaching kids something they need instead of brainwashing them.

The only brainwashing that takes place is that people like you think that brainwashing is occurring in every school in the country and in every classroom.

This. It's a conservative talking point. I say this as a conservative.

 

[sealybobo]

..... You teach the way teachers have for hundreds of years. .....

You don't even realize how laughably ignorant that comment is.

He's easily one of the most ignorant posters I've ever read. And that is saying something.

You’re just mad because I attack you for being a republican teacher. Can’t get any more ignorant than that.

I'm not mad but your posts are an incoherent dumpster fire. In one post you're telling me I'm worthless, old and ugly and therefore shouldn't be teaching (really, folks); in the next post you say I'm NOT PAID ENOUGH because whatever, I'm Republican.

It's devoid of all logic. It's beyond repair, the steampile you post

If you were to print out one of my crazy posts and grade it, this is what it would look like

 

[SweetSue92]

That's what I've heard, anyway.

Just got back from a program in the kindergarten class my older daughter teaches at a Charter school. A class in which they know cursive, can read books, and can do third grade math by the time the year is over. In kindergarten.

Anyway, they recited all the states and the state capitols, both as a group and individually; they answered questions on American history and geography; they recited the first part of the Gettysburg Address. And they did one mean bunny hop a couple of times in between.

This class is about 80% black or brown.

This class isn't about your skin color or how much money your parents have. It's about maintaining standards and expectations, giving kids pride in their own achievements, and holding them accountable for their actions.

I'll bet we all know this. Some just refuse to admit it.
.

Teachers are grossly underpaid.

They are paid to much for the lousy job they do.

How the hell would you know? When was the last time you sat through a teacher's workday? Notice I said "workday" and not "school day"!

Also notice I said "sat", which is something teacher's rarely get to do during the workday.

It's pretty obvious isn't it? My two grand kids recently graduated high school and they know nothing about civil rights, who any local politicians are, voting, or history of how we got here.Young people are not learning much of anything they need to know. Even when my kids were in school it was obvious from my observations. The teachers refused to discipline the trouble makers because of liberal scum created policies that lead to the creation of more Nicholas Cruz monsters.

If I taught high school I would not teach about local politicians either. For one thing, those folks often hold two-year terms; what's the point? For another, it's too politically fraught. This is a darned if you don't, darned if you do situation which is so commonplace when it comes to schools. DON'T TALK POLITICS but also WHY DOESN'T MY KID KNOW ALL POLITICIANS

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I could be wrong, but some of what you're telling me sounds pretty unbelievable. And it certainly isn't because I don't believe students can learn.

They are not starting with average students though,, you know? And it sounds like the parents are intent on heavily investing in their childrens education.

No, I didn't know charter school kids aren't "average." I guess I do now.

No Jim, they have to take what they get. A lot of these kids come from broken homes, a lot of them have troubled histories from other schools, but they were next on the waiting list. Sometimes my daughter's school is their last chance before the county takes over. She has some pretty horrific stories.

This isn't an academy. It's just an option, and the school gets what it gets. Parents don't drive their kids from one end of the city to another every day for school and this is not in a good area of town, so there's nothing special about the kids.
.

Who put them on the waiting list? God just deemed it so?

You keep working so hard to prove our point!

I'm pretty happy with my point, and with the results my daughter's school is getting. And I'm happiest for the kids.

Those who have an interest in tearing those results down can do their best. No skin off my nose.
.

Your point regarding the kids is a good one.

 

[sealybobo]

That’s amazing... kudos to your daughter for doing an excellent job grooming our youth!

Yes it is amazing finding a teacher actually teaching kids something they need instead of brainwashing them.

The only brainwashing that takes place is that people like you think that brainwashing is occurring in every school in the country and in every classroom.

This. It's a conservative talking point. I say this as a conservative.

Yes, it's the Republican war on education. If you don't like education because you don't get to preach creation science and you are threatened by science then you trash education.

The government is the enemy too. Forget the fact that it's our government. Ignore that the problem is rich people own our government. Never mind all that. Just say the government is the enemy. That's as much as Republicans can understand. Any more explanation goes over their heads.

Scientists are the enemy too. Not the corporate polluters.. It's the scientists who are lying.

And progressive liberals and unions who created the middle class are the enemy too not the corporations who sent their jobs overseas.

And illegals are the problem, not immigrants but employers.