Minimum Wage would be $21.72/hr if it kept up with productivity: CEPR 2012 Study

[TGN]

The responsibility of a CEO to keep a company profitable,to keep it competitive,to guide it
through a tough economy,to compete on a global scale...to be able to look ahead a few years and
to try to make sure that it will be viable....

It's an awesome responsibility.
Whatever their compensation it's well earned.

You mean when they're not playing on the golf course and kicking back on their yacht while their employees are toiling away for them?

And you seem unaware that the workers could manage things on their own.

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think it's correct. The diaper clad baby boomers will disagree.

Are you saying that even people who have so little cognitive function that they need a diaper are able to see that you are stupid beyond belief?

 

[alan1]

SEATTLE TIMES

January 17, 2014 at 10:46 AM

Vote: Should Seattle raise the minimum wage?

Posted by Jon Talton


One of the most important issues facing the city this year will be the push to raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour. If the minimum wage had kept pace with productivity, it would have been $21.72 an hour in 2012, according to the Center for Economic and Policy Research.

Instead, the federal minimum wage is $7.25 and $9.32 in Washington, the highest in the nation. The purchasing power of the minimum wage peaked in the 1960s and has been falling ever since.

While a relatively small cohort works for the actual minimum, a raise to $15 would sweep far more people upward.

For advocates, it’s a matter of social justice at a time of historic inequality as well as good economics — workers with more disposable income will create more demand for goods and services. Much research has found that at least modest increases in the minimum have no discernible effect on employment (for an example, see here).

Opponents say raising the minimum wage will kill jobs and wound small companies. Workers with the least skills would not be hirable at higher costs and so the people the measure most claims to help would actually be hurt. Also, franchise owners, often operating on very thin margins, would face the weight of a higher wage, not the highly profitable fast-food corporations.

What do you think?

In current dollars the minimum wage in 2002 was $5.15 an hour.
Is the wait staff at your favorite restaurant 4 times more productive than it was 10 years ago?
In other words, did waiters and waitresses in 2012 wait on 4 times as many customers as they did in 2002 and provide the same level of service in the same amount of time?
The answer to that question would be NO.

In some industries it is impossible to increase productivity at the same rate as inflation.

Good wait staff already makes that amount.

-Raise minimum wage to $23.50/hr. Based on where minimum wage should be using 1970-2013 rise in food, shelter, and transportation.

-Eliminate all business subsidies (deductions/write-off’s/write-downs) except for employee expenses which are deducted dollar-for-dollar on all city, state, and Federal taxes and fees.

-Adjust Social Security and private/public retirement and pension payments using 1970-2013 price structure.

-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years. Eliminating inflation.

-Recall ALL off-shore investments tax free, and disallow any further off-shore investments.

Yer kinda funny, in a ridiculous sort of way.
If the minimum wage was raised to $23.50 an hour, exactly how do you think the cost of groceries, housing, haircuts, automobiles and everything else could be forced back to January 1, 2009 levels?
Combining those two ideas is about as brilliant as making a soup sandwich.
And why did you pick January 1, 2009? Why not February 29th 2008?

Good wait staff already makes that amount.

Then they don't need an increase in the minimum wage.

 

[Intolerant]

The big companies like McDonalds and Walmart can take the hit, they will just pass it on to the consumer, but the small businessman will be hammered and run out of business or forced by economics to relocate outside of the city.

It puts service industry businesses located inside of the city at a major disadvantage. They will be forced to pay the new minimum wage which will increase their overhead while any competitors that are based outside of the city will have the same overhead and will be more competitive bidding for contracts due to their comparatively cheaper labor. So they lose their businesses or they will have to pack up and move out of the city for the cheaper labor.

The city leaders will feel it when they see a significant segment of their tax base and middle class just leave and we all know what happens to cities when the middle class flee and small businesses shut down. The working poor that have minimum wage jobs with small businesses will lose those jobs and they will stay in the city on welfare. Yes there will be higher paying jobs, but fewer of them and even more people on welfare while a chunk of the tax base, the small businesses relocate to outside of the city. I guess that city leaders are really living in a progressive bubble of their own creation. When they have less tax money coming in they will increase taxes and or cut back on services. If they actually think that they can do this without the rest of surrounding area doing so and it will work then they truly are living in a fantasy land.

I've noticed that when liberal fantasy meets reality that the their only solution to keep the dream alive is to increase taxes!

 

[DGS49]

(1) There is no rational basis on which to raise compensation according to productivity, unless the employee herself is the reason for the increase in productivity. The hours-per-ton of coal mined today is multiples of what it was 30 years ago, but the actual miners' jobs are quite a bit easier and safer. The difference is improvements in mining equipment, in which the miners themselves played no part. Why should the miners be paid more?

(2) The very existence of a statutory minimum wage is economically stupid and counterproductive, as any honest economist will admit (even Paul Krugman, in his textbooks). Compensation should be set according to supply & demand, just like the price of just about everything else.

(3) The Minimum Wage law is unconstitutional. The ninth amendment alludes to many other rights that are not enumerated in the Bill of Rights, but are to remain in existence nonetheless. One of those rights (coming down to us from English Common Law) is the Right of Contract. The right of contract is basically the right of any person to contract for anything they desire with another willing person, as long as it is not illegal (prostitution, sales of stolen goods, etc.). Minimum Wage laws prohibit willing employers from contracting with willing employees for any wage that falls below the statotory minimum wage. That is, if I want to pay a high school kid $5/per hour to do odd jobs around my fruit market after school and on weekends, and he wants to do it for $5, WE ARE PROHIBITED BY LAW FROM ENTERING INTO THIS CONTRACT (oral or written). Thus, the MW law is unconstitutional.

(4) If it is SO FUCKING important to raise the MW, why didn't the democrats even attempt to raise it when they had control of the White House and both houses of Congress in 2008-2010? They managed to stuff ObamaCare down our throats.

(5) The one question the Libs refuse to consider seriously is "Where does the money come from?" What they actually believe but cannot say out loud is that The Rich Business Owners will be forced to pay it out of their "obscene profits." But clearly, the money will either be taken out of the pockets of customers (YOU), or will be made up by other means. See (6) below.

(6) Any time the State mandates that the price of something be greater than its economic value, three things happen: (a) the consumers of that commodity use less of it, (b) the consumers will seek alternatives, and (c) a "black market" comes into existence to satisfy the need. Let's say the government mandates that the price of a bag of potato chips be $10. (a) Consumers will purchase fewer bags of potato chips, (b) they will seek alternative salty snacks, and (c) "underground" producers will start making and selling potato chips out of the trunks of their cars. For $8 a bag.

In the case of a MW mandating wages beyond the ecomonic value of the services provided by bottom level workers, (a) takes the form of reduced hours and employees, (b) is automation and outsourcing, and (c) is hiring of "undocumented workers," and paying people "under the table." Again, its economic law, not subject to the whims of Congress or the President.

 

[jasonnfree]

Here it is:

Vote: Should Seattle raise the minimum wage? | Jon Talton | Seattle Times

Carol Bartz got 9 million severance for 30 months poor performance at Yahoo. This is not uncommon and one reason why corporate run health care is so expensive.

You're fired -- here's $9 million - 1 - CEO severance - MSN Money

 

[MaxGrit]

inflation

 

[srlip]

let's make it $30 per hour, so we can be COMPLETELY non-competitive with the rest of the world.

people have wake up. what happened right after WW2, up into the early 70's, once a once in history fluke. Our wages were WAY out of line with the rest of the world, and we got away with it for a while, because we had the only functioning physical plant and the only trained, educated work force.

 

[srlip]

after all, 60k per year IS what it takes to do worth a hoot in the USA today.

 

[Mr Natural]

let's make it $30 per hour, so we can be COMPLETELY non-competitive with the rest of the world.

people have wake up. what happened right after WW2, up into the early 70's, once a once in history fluke. Our wages were WAY out of line with the rest of the world, and we got away with it for a while, because we had the only functioning physical plant and the only trained, educated work force.

Sadly, there's a lot of truth in that statement and the best of times have already been.

From here on out it's going to get progressively worse and worse as American (and all western) workers compete with cheap third world labor.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

CEO pay has kept pace......and then some

Good point.
The CEO of WalMart used to work in a WalMart warehouse as a part time employee. 5 Things You Need to Know About Walmart's New CEO - ABC News snip,

McMillon began his career at Wal-Mart as a summer associate in a Walmart Distribution Center in 1984, loading and unloading trucks.

No, you cannot use WalMart as an example of anything except corporate welfare.

 

[elektra]

Democrats are only for a higher minimum wage for politics.

The Democrats in California for years have employed illegal aliens to be housekeepers and gardeners, all illegally.

Zero Social Security paid
Zero Taxes collected

If Democrats really are who they are marketed as, caring, for higher wages, why when given a choice they employ illegal aliens?

At that Democrats in California employee millions of illegal aliens.

How do Democrats care when they choose the cheapest workers and higher them illegally?

 

[Wyatt earp]

SEATTLE TIMES

January 17, 2014 at 10:46 AM

Vote: Should Seattle raise the minimum wage?

Posted by Jon Talton


One of the most important issues facing the city this year will be the push to raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour. If the minimum wage had kept pace with productivity, it would have been $21.72 an hour in 2012, according to the Center for Economic and Policy Research.

Instead, the federal minimum wage is $7.25 and $9.32 in Washington, the highest in the nation. The purchasing power of the minimum wage peaked in the 1960s and has been falling ever since.

While a relatively small cohort works for the actual minimum, a raise to $15 would sweep far more people upward.

For advocates, it’s a matter of social justice at a time of historic inequality as well as good economics — workers with more disposable income will create more demand for goods and services. Much research has found that at least modest increases in the minimum have no discernible effect on employment (for an example, see here).

Opponents say raising the minimum wage will kill jobs and wound small companies. Workers with the least skills would not be hirable at higher costs and so the people the measure most claims to help would actually be hurt. Also, franchise owners, often operating on very thin margins, would face the weight of a higher wage, not the highly profitable fast-food corporations.

What do you think?

In current dollars the minimum wage in 2002 was $5.15 an hour.
Is the wait staff at your favorite restaurant 4 times more productive than it was 10 years ago?
In other words, did waiters and waitresses in 2012 wait on 4 times as many customers as they did in 2002 and provide the same level of service in the same amount of time?
The answer to that question would be NO.

In some industries it is impossible to increase productivity at the same rate as inflation.

Good wait staff already makes that amount.

-Raise minimum wage to $23.50/hr. Based on where minimum wage should be using 1970-2013 rise in food, shelter, and transportation.

-Eliminate all business subsidies (deductions/write-off’s/write-downs) except for employee expenses which are deducted dollar-for-dollar on all city, state, and Federal taxes and fees.

-Adjust Social Security and private/public retirement and pension payments using 1970-2013 price structure.

-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years. Eliminating inflation.

-Recall ALL off-shore investments tax free, and disallow any further off-shore investments.

Yer kinda funny, in a ridiculous sort of way.
If the minimum wage was raised to $23.50 an hour, exactly how do you think the cost of groceries, housing, haircuts, automobiles and everything else could be forced back to January 1, 2009 levels?
Combining those two ideas is about as brilliant as making a soup sandwich.
And why did you pick January 1, 2009? Why not February 29th 2008?

Good wait staff already makes that amount.

Then they don't need an increase in the minimum wage.

Yea that's what I figured what a liberal really wants and think it would work..


Lmao raise the minimum wage sky high and freeze costs.

 

[Rshermr]

Democrats are only for a higher minimum wage for politics.

The Democrats in California for years have employed illegal aliens to be housekeepers and gardeners, all illegally.

Zero Social Security paid
Zero Taxes collected

If Democrats really are who they are marketed as, caring, for higher wages, why when given a choice they employ illegal aliens?

At that Democrats in California employee millions of illegal aliens.

How do Democrats care when they choose the cheapest workers and higher them illegally?

So, why do you think anyone should believe you? If true, your claims need to be backed up by links to proof. If you have any.

 

[Rshermr]

The responsibility of a CEO to keep a company profitable,to keep it competitive,to guide it
through a tough economy,to compete on a global scale...to be able to look ahead a few years and
to try to make sure that it will be viable....

It's an awesome responsibility.
Whatever their compensation it's well earned.

So, you do not believe in the precepts of pure capitalism. Which, if it existed would allow all to negotiate living wages, or the business in question would go out of business.
What are we missing from the Adam Smith ideal?

 

[Rshermr]

SEATTLE TIMES

January 17, 2014 at 10:46 AM

Vote: Should Seattle raise the minimum wage?

Posted by Jon Talton


One of the most important issues facing the city this year will be the push to raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour. If the minimum wage had kept pace with productivity, it would have been $21.72 an hour in 2012, according to the Center for Economic and Policy Research.

Instead, the federal minimum wage is $7.25 and $9.32 in Washington, the highest in the nation. The purchasing power of the minimum wage peaked in the 1960s and has been falling ever since.

While a relatively small cohort works for the actual minimum, a raise to $15 would sweep far more people upward.

For advocates, it’s a matter of social justice at a time of historic inequality as well as good economics — workers with more disposable income will create more demand for goods and services. Much research has found that at least modest increases in the minimum have no discernible effect on employment (for an example, see here).

Opponents say raising the minimum wage will kill jobs and wound small companies. Workers with the least skills would not be hirable at higher costs and so the people the measure most claims to help would actually be hurt. Also, franchise owners, often operating on very thin margins, would face the weight of a higher wage, not the highly profitable fast-food corporations.

What do you think?

In current dollars the minimum wage in 2002 was $5.15 an hour.
Is the wait staff at your favorite restaurant 4 times more productive than it was 10 years ago?
In other words, did waiters and waitresses in 2012 wait on 4 times as many customers as they did in 2002 and provide the same level of service in the same amount of time?
The answer to that question would be NO.

In some industries it is impossible to increase productivity at the same rate as inflation.

So, to hell with low skilled workers? While we learned the problem with that concept decades ago, the simplistic mind still thinks that pure capitalism works And those nice ceo's should be trusted to set wages fairly. Which, the simplistic mind believe, worked before. But:

"Laissez Faire
laissez faire is French for "leave to do," or more accurately, "leave to be." It was first coined by French economic theorists Dr. Francois Quesnay and the Marquis de Mirabeau.

The philosophy behind laissez faire economics was first expressed by Scottish economist Adam Smith in his 1776 classic The Wealth of Nations. Smith posited that the forces of supply and demand allow a market economy to self-regulate and that price levels, wages and employment are automatically adjusted by an "invisible hand." Consequently, governments have no reason to and should not interfere by imposing tariffs and minimum-wage restrictions. Beyond the taxes necessary for ensuring public well-being, such constraints foster only inefficiency and unnecessarily inhibit production.

WHY IT MATTERS:
The laissez faire philosophy heavily impacted economic policy during the industrial revolution of the 1800s. In the wake of widespread poverty resulting from exploitatively low wages combined with dangerous, unhygienic work environments, it became evident that exclusively laissez-faire economic attitudes can result in the very phenomena that governments must stop -- namely, the exploitation and poor treatment of their citizens. Following the economic collapse of 1929, governments began to institute economic policies designed not to control production or inhibit efficiency, but to protect workers and consumers."
Laissez Faire Definition & Example | Investing Answers

Those that take a course or two in economics would see that Laissez faire economics has never worked in any nation. If it did we would have seen some successful Libertarian nations by now, but we have only seen failures. Because, monopolistic power always results as capitalism goes forward, and the people do not put up with it. Just as with communism, Libertarianism had no chance of succeeding.

 

[Rshermr]

(1) There is no rational basis on which to raise compensation according to productivity, unless the employee herself is the reason for the increase in productivity. The hours-per-ton of coal mined today is multiples of what it was 30 years ago, but the actual miners' jobs are quite a bit easier and safer. The difference is improvements in mining equipment, in which the miners themselves played no part. Why should the miners be paid more?

(2) The very existence of a statutory minimum wage is economically stupid and counterproductive, as any honest economist will admit (even Paul Krugman, in his textbooks). Compensation should be set according to supply & demand, just like the price of just about everything else.

(3) The Minimum Wage law is unconstitutional. The ninth amendment alludes to many other rights that are not enumerated in the Bill of Rights, but are to remain in existence nonetheless. One of those rights (coming down to us from English Common Law) is the Right of Contract. The right of contract is basically the right of any person to contract for anything they desire with another willing person, as long as it is not illegal (prostitution, sales of stolen goods, etc.). Minimum Wage laws prohibit willing employers from contracting with willing employees for any wage that falls below the statotory minimum wage. That is, if I want to pay a high school kid $5/per hour to do odd jobs around my fruit market after school and on weekends, and he wants to do it for $5, WE ARE PROHIBITED BY LAW FROM ENTERING INTO THIS CONTRACT (oral or written). Thus, the MW law is unconstitutional.

(4) If it is SO FUCKING important to raise the MW, why didn't the democrats even attempt to raise it when they had control of the White House and both houses of Congress in 2008-2010? They managed to stuff ObamaCare down our throats.

(5) The one question the Libs refuse to consider seriously is "Where does the money come from?" What they actually believe but cannot say out loud is that The Rich Business Owners will be forced to pay it out of their "obscene profits." But clearly, the money will either be taken out of the pockets of customers (YOU), or will be made up by other means. See (6) below.

(6) Any time the State mandates that the price of something be greater than its economic value, three things happen: (a) the consumers of that commodity use less of it, (b) the consumers will seek alternatives, and (c) a "black market" comes into existence to satisfy the need. Let's say the government mandates that the price of a bag of potato chips be $10. (a) Consumers will purchase fewer bags of potato chips, (b) they will seek alternative salty snacks, and (c) "underground" producers will start making and selling potato chips out of the trunks of their cars. For $8 a bag.

In the case of a MW mandating wages beyond the ecomonic value of the services provided by bottom level workers, (a) takes the form of reduced hours and employees, (b) is automation and outsourcing, and (c) is hiring of "undocumented workers," and paying people "under the table." Again, its economic law, not subject to the whims of Congress or the President.

Really verbose expose of conservative talking points. Perhaps you can name a major nation where your laissez faire concepts have worked at any point in the past hundred years.. Look hard, now. Cause you will soon fail.

 

[anotherlife]

The minimum wage is always zero. When every work is done elsewhere by some other country's citizen, then who will support consumerism? Your save as you spend free credit card? It would be interesting what will happen to the country when the average worker can't afford food, roof, or even a ten minute whore, after the wage of a day's work.

 

[Rshermr]

[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
The minimum wage is always zero. No minimum wage is ever set at zero. If there is no minimum wage, no one works for zero. So, your comment is untrue. When every work is done elsewhere by some other country's citizen, then who will support consumerism?
Not sure what you are getting at. Your comment makes no sense. Your save as you spend free credit card? It would be interesting what will happen to the country when the average worker can't afford food, roof, or even a ten minute whore, after the wage of a day's work. Jesus, that was stupid.

 

[anotherlife]

The minimum wage is always zero. No minimum wage is ever set at zero. If there is no minimum wage, no one works for zero. So, your comment is untrue. When every work is done elsewhere by some other country's citizen, then who will support consumerism?
Not sure what you are getting at. Your comment makes no sense. Your save as you spend free credit card? It would be interesting what will happen to the country when the average worker can't afford food, roof, or even a ten minute whore, after the wage of a day's work. Jesus, that was stupid.

Okay, in other words, a free falling wage needs not stop at the affordability of rooms and food. So the minimum wage as an idea is basically a price control policy. Businesses do price control policies internationally. Governments do it nationally.