Matthew's big blunder - and what we can learn fro it

[irosie91]

1945. thanks for asking.

Uh-uh. This does not match your own criteria that Jews were put to death over Jesus not being the Messiah. For the Nazi's the 1940s were a race issue, not one of belief. Plus, I asked for a specific case where a Jew was killed because s/he did not agree Jesus was the Messiah.

The murder of jews mediated by the catholic church DID NOT
INVOLVE TRIALS. Thus a victim would not have to be ASKED prior to execution by whatever means "DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS MESSIAH" Evidence of
"practice of Judaism" was sufficient for the Time called The Inquisition and ----for the pogroms of Eastern Europe
which continued to actively execute jews into the 20th
century---also not by 'TRIAL' The "INQUISITION" did
involve trials----in which persons testified as to their beliefs----
but those trials applied only to persons claiming to be christians

 

[JoeB131]

JoeB, you are just unhappy that billions take your kind of carping and drop it in the waste basked.

not sure what a "waste basked" is, Fake Jake. Billions of people do lots of stupid things.

And so do people like you: tasket a basked.

And I thought you'd be man enough to admit to a typo and we'd all have a good laugh.

I expect too much from you, Fake Jake.

 

[JoeB131]

Next gimp to claim Nazis were Xians needs to be banned from the Religion forum. They in fact were much more like your typical Dawkins' Dufuses and 'Progressive' Democrats, all about 'empiricism' and 'rationalism' and Darwinism and genetics. They sound just like the 'atheist' gimps who spam this forum; that is no coincidence, either.

1) Link.

2) Sorry, man, the Nazis were Christians. True, they tried to rationalize some of their stupidity with the trappings of science. So do the anti-Abortion nuts and anti-evolution nuts.

 

[alang1216]

So why is it more plausible they were talking about a real person than just making some shit up?

If Christians made up Jesus they would have done a much better job since Jesus was not what the Jews were expecting from their messiah.

 

[JoeB131]

If Christians made up Jesus they would have done a much better job since Jesus was not what the Jews were expecting from their messiah.

Not at all. By the time Christianity was getting invented in the second century, they had kind of given up on converting the Jews. They just borrowed a backstory.

 

[Votto]

I'm not a fanatical inerrant kind of guy. Even inconsistencies can be seen in the OT, like who killed Goliath. (See Chronicles 20:5 and 2 Samuel 21:19) After all, the Bible does not claim to be inerrant, other people do.

I go by the overall message of the Bible that repeats, which is faith, hope, and love. There is also the general theme of a Messiah to come to save humanity. However, from an archeology perspective, the Bible is accurate enough to create a whole branch of archeology from which to draw information from. For example, scientists had no proof that the Philistines existed, but just went digging where the Bible said they were and found them. I believe everyone mentioned in the Bible to be historically real, and yes, the Israelites were slaves in Egypt and God delivered them. I know of no other scientific discipline that was created from a religious text. Pretty impressive.

Having said that, I'm most impressed by two prophesies, Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:24-27.

Reading Isaiah 53, you would probably be persuaded that the NT was written to match it word for word. Well that is all well and good except for one problem. Why would God seek to punish and "innocent and blameless" man?

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth


10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light and be satisfied
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Then there is Daniel 9. Here we have a calendar for the coming of the Messiah. Naturally, Christians calculate the calendar to the time of Christ as where those who don't believe dispute this. However, in the Talmud we see rabbis calculate the time and forbid people to calculate it because it points to the time of Jesus.

Further, rabbis are told that "Jesus tarries" because the time has already passed for the coming of their Messiah. Because they reject their Messiah, they reason that God simply changed his mind due to the sinfulness of Israel.

As for John being anti-Semitic, you are nuts.

I'm guessing you are easily swayed by fake news?
Isaiah 53 is not messianic & is PLURAL PAST TENSE not singular fiture tense. Context talks about Israel being the servent over 14 times in Isaiah. Israel became disfigured and despised, Jesus is written to be popular throughout the NT so are you saying the NT lies?
Daniel 9 is also not messianic.
The word in Isaiah is "an" anointed, not THE ANOINTED ONE. KINGS were anointed.


Placement of Jesus in Dan 9 is the earliest form of fake news=fake narative.

Let me explain Dan 9 so you see it revealed.
The events Daniel is prophecizing already occured before Jesus and the events of the temple you propose occured after Jesus making the correlation impossible even if you avoided history and thought it didn’t occur yet.
Daniel is talking about "an anointed place" and an anointed (King)
not THE ANOINTED ONE.
*notice word play deceptions to paint false placement*
Now to review why these events already occured:
Dan 9: There is a 7-week (49-year) span between the actual destruction of Jerusalem in 586 (beginning the exile and realizing the decree in 538bc to rebuild), and the end of the exile brought about by the arrival of ‘AN’ anointed one not “THE” anointed one . Kings and High Priests were anointed as AN anointed one but not THE anointed one. Thus we must notice the wording is “an anointed one” not “THE” anointed one.

Dan 9:24 says anoint the holy place not an anointed man. Daniel 9:25 says, "from the time the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was issued, until AN annointed one, a ruler, it will be seven weeks". If the decree is indeed sometime around the beginning of the full Exile, 586 b.c.e., then who is the anointed one mentioned? And, GOD already has referred to ruler Cyrus as his Anointed in
Isaiah 45:1: 70 years after the destruction Cyrus rebuilt the Temple in other words it's completion in 516BC
Here's the reference of this ‘70 years’ by the Historian Josephus in Antiquities 11.1.1: Ant. 11.1.1 "In the first year of the reign of Cyrus, which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they has served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that SERVITUDE seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity; and these things God did afford them."

Daniel 9:26
And after the sixty-two weeks,an anointed one will be cut off,
and there will be nothing to him.
and the people of a ruler who shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary,
and the end of it/him shall be with a flood,,
and, until the end of the war, desolations are decreed.

62 weeks (434 years) leads us to around 152 b.c.e. the time of antiochus desolation and destruction of the temple. The anointed one was the king who was cut off. High Priest Onias III, who was assasinated (cut off) in 171 b.c.e. In 168 b.c.e., the middle of the next "week" of years (171-165 b.c.e.), ruler Antiochus IV (who had Onias killed) pillaged Jerusalem. Antiochus IV matches the "ruler to come",

Furthermore if you ever read the commentary on Daniel and Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls the liberator &
HaSheva (redeemer) is already named as Michael (the Evening Star- rises
-Dan 12:1-4) thus Daniels Visions of the Night (Evening Star Shalem) is of son of man (Shalem)-Dan7:7, 7:13.

Conclusion: learn to discern "tenses",
least you be duped & played by people who manipulate words to change the narrative for sake of propaganda, like our tabloid news does today.

Fake news?

Most modern rabbis try to deny the messianic application of Daniel 9:24-27, however, it is well established that rabbis of old believed that this prophesy pinpointed the time of the coming of the Messiah. In fact, many in the Qumran community (the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls) believed that they were living in the very generation to which this prophesy pointed. (Biblical Archaeology Review, Nov/Dec 1992 p.58)

In the Babylonian Talmud, compiled between A. D 200-500, ancient rabbis commented on the time of the Messiah's coming and Daniels seventy weeks prophecy.

Regarding the times referred to in Daniel's prophecy, Rabbi Judah, the main compiler of the Talmud, said: "These times were over long ago" (Babylonia Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a

In the 12th century A. D., Rabbi Moses Ben Moimon (Maimonides), one of the most respected rabbis in history, and a man who rejected the messianic claims of Jesus of Nazareth, said regarding Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy: "Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the end times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah" (Igeret Teiman, chapter 3 p. 24)

Finally, Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi said regarding the time of the Messiah's coming: "I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of the Messiah clearly fixed, EXCEPT in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel." (The Messiah of the Targums, Talumuds and Rabbinical Writers, 1971)

There, references and all. Anyone who is seriously interested, and not here to troll, knock yourself out!

 

[Votto]

Leopold Cohn anyone?

The Testimony of Rabbi Leopold Cohn:

The Orthodox Jewish community of Berezna was the birthplace of Leopold Cohn, who was destined for a momentous quest. In this part of Europe, Orthodox Judaism was a way of life. Traditional Judaism was all-pervasive in its impact on a daily existence and there was zeal for the Torah (Law). It was not surprising, then, that Leopold Cohn became a rabbi.(1)

Following the completion of his formal studies and the subsequent receipt of smicha or ordination at the young age of eighteen, Rabbi Cohn contracted a very happy marriage and, in keeping with the custom of the time, became installed in his wife's paternal home, there to devote himself to the further study of the sacred writings.(2)

Searching For The Messiah:
Through the years of almost ascetic religious study and devotion, the burning problems of his people, the problems of the Galut [exile] and of the promised, but long-delayed, redemption through the coming of the Messiah, had become deeply etched upon the rabbi's spirit.(2)

A part of his morning devotions was the repetition of the twelfth article of the Jewish creed, which declares, "I believe with a perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah and, though He tarry, yet will I wait daily for His coming." (Maimonides) The regular use of this affirmation of faith fanned to a flame the desire of his heart for the fulfillment of God's promises and the speedy restoration of scattered Israel until, no longer satisfied with the formal prayers, he began to rise up in the midnight watches and sit on the bare ground to mourn over the destruction of the temple and to implore God to hasten the coming of the Deliverer.(2)

When Would The Messiah Come? - Questioning The Talmud:
"Why does the Messiah tarry? When will He come?" These questions continually agitated the young rabbi's mind. Knowing that the Talmud taught that the timing of the coming of the Messiah should have already occurred he studied the original prophecies themselves.(2)

He studied Daniel 9:24-27... From the twenty-fourth verse of the chapter before him he deduced without difficulty that the coming of the Messiah should have taken place 400 years after Daniel received from the divine messenger the prophecy of the Seventy Weeks. The scholar, accustomed to the intricate and often veiled polemical treatises of the Talmud, now found himself strangely captivated by the clear and soul-satisfying declarations of the Word of God, and it was not long before he began to question in his mind the reliability of the Talmud, seeing that in matters so vital it differed from the Holy Scriptures.(2)

It was neither an easy nor a pleasant matter for Rabbi Cohn, the leader of a Jewish community, daily gaining in popularity among his people, to entertain doubts concerning the authority of the Talmud. And yet, every moment of sober contemplation brought him face to face with the question, "Shall I believe God's Word, or must I shut my eyes to truth?"(2)

Turning Point At Hanukkah Time:
It was the season of the Feast of Dedication and, as was his custom, he planned to preach to his people on the meaning of the feast. He had not intended to refer in his sermon either to his doubts about the Talmud or to his late discoveries in the prophecy of Daniel but, when he rose to speak, some of his deepest thoughts welled up within him and would not be denied articulation. The effect of his words upon the congregation became immediately evident. Whispers grew to loud protests, and before the sermon progressed very far the service broke up in an uproar. That day initiated a series of petty persecutions which robbed the life of the young rabbi of its joy and made his ministry difficult to the point of impossibility.(2)

The New Testament was as yet an unknown book to Rabbi Cohn, and consequently it never entered his mind to look there for the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophetic predictions.(2)

He decided to seek advice from a fellow Rabbi in a distant town, however he was not received well when questions about the accuracy of the Talmud were raised and eventually he felt if necessary to leave the congregation he was leading and come to America for further research into the Messiah.(2)

Coming To America:
March 1892 found Rabbi Cohn in the city of New York, warmly welcomed by his countrymen, many of whom had known him personally at home. Rabbi Kline of the Hungarian Synagogue, who had preceded him to America, and to whom he had a letter of recommendation, received him with much kindness and even offered him a place of temporary service in his synagogue while awaiting a call to a suitable congregation.(2)

One day while walking past a church he noticed a sign that said "meeting for Jews" written in Hebrew. After being told by someone in the church that he could have a private meeting with the churches minister he decided to do it. He knew this was a church that taught the Messiah had already come and had Jews inside.(2)

Rabbi Cohn plucked up enough courage to present himself at the minister's address. He entered the house with many misgivings, but the impression made upon him by the gracious personality of the minister, a Jew who, like himself, was a trained Talmudist, and in addition the scion of a famous rabbinical family very soon put him completely at ease. Before he realized what he was doing, he found himself relating to his new-found friend the story of his messianic quest.(2)

Introduction To The New Testament:
During that meeting the minister noting that his visitor was completely unacquainted with its contents, the minister handed him a copy of the New Testament in Hebrew and asked him to study it at his leisure.(2)

Rabbi Cohn opened the volume and turned to the first page, where his eyes fell upon the first lines of the Gospel by Matthew: "This is the book of the generation of Yeshua the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(2)

The feelings the words awakened in him beggar description. It seemed that he had finally reached the goal of his long quest. The sacrifices he had made, the separation from wife and children he had endured, the days he had spent in agonizing prayer—all those things were about to bear their fruit and receive their reward. The problem which neither he nor those he consulted could solve was now answered by a book, and that book was in his hands. Surely such a book must have come to him by the will of Heaven. God had finally answered his many prayers and now, he was sure, He would help him to find the Messiah.(2)

Taking leave of his host, Rabbi Cohn ran as fast as he could to his room and, locking the door, gave himself to a study of the precious volume, his pearl of great price. "I began reading at eleven o'clock in the morning," he wrote later when reflecting on the events of that momentous day, "and continued until one o'clock after midnight. I could not understand the entire contents of the book, but I could at least see that the Messiah's name was Yeshua, that He was born in Bethlehem of Judah, that He had lived in Jerusalem and communicated with my people, and that He came just at the time predicted in the prophecy of Daniel. My joy was boundless."(2)

But had he been able to look into the future, Rabbi Cohn would have seen other days of sorrow in store for him. Narrow and toilsome is the path of faith in a world of unbelief. His first rude shock came the very next morning, when he tried to share his discovery with Rabbi Kline, who but recently had offered to assist him in finding a charge. "You are a wild dreamer!" shouted his rabbinical colleague when he had heard Cohn's story. "The Messiah whom you say you found is none other than the Jesus of the Gentiles. And as for this book," he said, tearing the New Testament from Cohn's hands, "a learned rabbi like you should not even handle, much less read this vile production of the apostates. It is the cause of all our sufferings." And with these words he threw the book to the floor and trampled upon it with his feet.(2)

Fleeing from this unexpected outburst of wrath, Rabbi Cohn felt himself once more a raging sea of conflicting thoughts and emotions. "Can it be possible that Yeshua the Messiah, the son of David, is the Jesus whom the Gentiles worship?" To believe upon such a one would indeed be an act of rank idolatry!(2)

A Battle From Within:
When he turned to God's lamp of truth, he found light. The prophetic vision of the suffering Messiah began to penetrate his mind as he read and re-read the fifty-third chapter of the prophecy of Isaiah, yet he was a long way from finding peace of soul. Solemn questions now stared him in the face: "What if Yeshua and Jesus are the same person? How shall I love the 'hated one'? How shall I defile my lips with the name of Jesus, whose followers have tortured and killed my brethren through many generations? How can I join a community of people so hostile to those of my own flesh and blood?" These were indeed questions troublesome enough to rob any man of his peace. And yet, above all the raging storm, there was a still, small voice that kept speaking to his heart and saying, "If He is the Messiah predicted in the Scriptures, then surely you must love Him, and no matter what others have done in His name, you must follow Him."(2)

The Moment of Truth - A New Creature:
Still halting between two opinions, Rabbi Cohn decided to fast and to pray until God clearly revealed to him what to do. When he began his supplications, he had in his hands a copy of the Hebrew Scriptures. Being wholly absorbed in prayer, he was startled when the volume fell from his hands to the floor and when he bent down to retrieve the sacred book he saw that it had opened at the third chapter of the prophecy of Malachi, which begins with the words, "Behold I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Angel of the Covenant whom ye delight in: behold He has already come, saith the Lord of Hosts." Now his entire being was electrified to attention and his every sense of perception awakened. For a moment he felt that the Messiah himself stood by his side pointing him to the words "He has already come". Stricken with a feeling of awe, he fell on his face, and out of his innermost parts came words of prayer and adoration. "My Lord, my Messiah Yeshua, Thou art the One in whom Israel is to be glorified, and Thou art surely the One who hast reconciled Thy people unto God. From this day I will serve Thee no matter what the cost." And, as if in direct answer to his prayer, a flood of light filled his understanding and to his unspeakable happiness he no longer found it difficult to love his Lord, although he was sure now that it was Jesus whom he was addressing. In that hour he knew that he had become a new creature in the Messiah.(2)

Consulting no longer with flesh and blood, Cohn began to proclaim to all his friends and acquaintances that the rejected Jesus was the true Messiah of Israel, and that not until the Jews as a people accepted Him could they find peace with God.(2)

After The Rabbi Believed In The Jewish Messiah - The Jewish Community Responds:

The first reaction of his friends was one of amused indulgence. "Rabbi Cohn is mentally confused," they said, "due to his long separation from his loved ones." But when his perseverance and earnestness of appeal challenged their attention, they branded him as a traitor to his people and began to persecute him bitterly. Some even thought that it would be a pious act to remove him from among the living. Such are the ways of zeal void of the knowledge of God!

Apostate!

When Cohn's countrymen settled down to the inevitable acceptance of the fact of his conversion, they proceeded to dispatch letters to his wife and friends at home, to inform them about his "apostasy." As a result, all communication between him and his wife was soon completely stopped.

In the meantime the Jews of New York were in an uproar over the act of the once honored rabbi, so arrangements were made for his secret departure to Scotland, so that he might have opportunity to study and gather strength in a friendly environment.

The Rabbi Is Baptized:
In Edinburgh Cohn found a cordial welcome among the people of the Barklay Church. It was well that he was now among friends, for he had another battle ahead of him and another enemy to overcome, an enemy more subtle and dangerous than all those he had left behind in New York. Approaching the day of his baptism, he felt that he would have to face the supreme test of his life and that arrayed against him would be Satan and all the powers of hell. Many things, he knew, were in the balance for him. In a spiritual way he expected to gain much from a resolute and open confession of his faith in the Messiah, but on the human side he was in danger of losing all that he counted dear in life—his wife, children, friends, position, dignities; in fact, everything.(2)

For some days prior to his baptism, even until the very hour of his solemn public commitment to the Messiah, Cohn lived under a cloud of gloomy foreboding. Prayer, to which he resorted often, brought him only temporary relief. But on the morning of his baptism, when he reached the church, he felt strengthened and cheered, as if the clouds had been dispelled by the very presence of the Messiah whom he was so eager to confess. Later, he came to know how the prayers of many friends had supported him in the hour of battle and of glorious victory. Indicative of these was a letter he received from Dr. Andrew A. Bonar, the venerable pastor of the Finnieston Church in Glasgow, which read, "My people and I were praying for you at our service this morning." In this way Cohn cut loose from the life he once lived, in order to give himself anew to the service of his people. He was no longer a rabbi of the law, but a messenger of the Messiah, and he carried in his heart the secret of Israel's salvation.(2)

Back In The USA:
In the fall of 1893 he returned with his family [who had also come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah] to New York, still the same passionate pilgrim after truth, except that now he had his bearings and the goal was no longer to him a matter of speculation. For the former Rabbi there was only one calling in life to serve God, and only one thing worth doing - to make known the way of God's salvation in Jesus the Messiah. And so, upon landing again in New York, he set about immediately to establish contact with the masses of his Jewish brethren.(2)

Chosen People Ministries:

Rabbi Cohn dedicating his life to serving others, formed the Brownsville (Williamsburg ) Mission to the Jews, which he founded in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn, New York, in 1894. He began this ministry by holding meetings in a store which was a renovated horse stable.

He founded his work upon faith, in response to the Scriptural exhortation of Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." The ministry's first Bible meeting was attended by eight Jewish people. The Lord continued to bless this work, and in the course of his lifetime, Leopold Cohn led over 1,000 people to the Lord.(1)

He started a newsletter, Chosen People. In 1924, Cohn gave the Williamsburg Mission a new name, the American Board of Missions to the Jews; the administration of the organization devolved in 1937 to Joseph H. Cohn, a graduate of Moody Bible Institute, after the death of his father, the mission's founder. Dr. Leopold Cohn passed away on December 19, 1937.

The San Francisco arm of the American Board of Missions to the Jews, headed by Moishe Rosen, broke off from the national organization in 1973 to form Jews for Jesus. The original mission changed its name yet again in 1986, to Chosen People Ministries.(3)

Rabbi Cohn wrote "I showed them from the Scriptures that to believe in Yeshua was Jewish faith, real Jewish faith. Chosen People Ministries still uses that guiding principle.(1)

 

[Czernobog]

I personally have no belief in the scriptures of the 'so-called' New Testament but why can't you just let them have it?

Let people believe what they want to believe.

Because what they believe is dangerous. This is a religion that has, rightly, been used to justify slavery. After all, the bible was quite clear, in multiple places, that God is just fine with slavery: Leviticus 25:44-46, and just in case anyone wants to insist that "the Old testament doesn't count, any more", we have Hebrews 21: 2-6. The Bible even gives rules on how to properly maintain your slaves: Exodus 21:20-21. So, yeah, The Christian Bible is perfectly fine with slavery. Fortunately our secular government, decided that it wasn't.

Then, of course there are the multiple cases of genocide being endorsed. This might explain why so many different Christian politicians and organizations will stop at nothing to prevent preventative measures being implemented that will prolong an individual’s life. The Catholic Church has historically been opposed to condom use with the likely outcome that many people needlessly contracted diseases and had their lives affected purely because of the church’s dogma. Now, while occurrences such as genocide, murder, rape, slavery, looting are seen as horrific occurrences today, they were commonplace in the bible and often executed with direct orders from God himself. The Old Testament is littered with the most inhumane stories imaginable, whole societies were claimed to be wiped out because they were different and not “the chosen”. One could question that if humans were created by God then surely we are all his children, and as a loving father would we not all be His?

Why would anyone support a religion that has such horrific moral foundations. Admittedly, Christians espouse a lot of positive moral positions, but they do so by blatantly ignoring what is tin the very book that they insist is the foundation of their beliefs. And, more often than not, their actions are much more in keeping with the Bible, than the words they spew.

Now, do I want to pass laws, like the dominionists do, to force Christians to give up their religion? No. But, so long as Christians go about spewing their bullshit, I will continue to point out that it is bullshit.

 

[Votto]

I personally have no belief in the scriptures of the 'so-called' New Testament but why can't you just let them have it?

Let people believe what they want to believe.

Because what they believe is dangerous. This is a religion that has, rightly, been used to justify slavery. After all, the bible was quite clear, in multiple places, that God is just fine with slavery: Leviticus 25:44-46, and just in case anyone wants to insist that "the Old testament doesn't count, any more", we have Hebrews 21: 2-6. The Bible even gives rules on how to properly maintain your slaves: Exodus 21:20-21. So, yeah, The Christian Bible is perfectly fine with slavery. Fortunately our secular government, decided that it wasn't.

Then, of course there are the multiple cases of genocide being endorsed. This might explain why so many different Christian politicians and organizations will stop at nothing to prevent preventative measures being implemented that will prolong an individual’s life. The Catholic Church has historically been opposed to condom use with the likely outcome that many people needlessly contracted diseases and had their lives affected purely because of the church’s dogma. Now, while occurrences such as genocide, murder, rape, slavery, looting are seen as horrific occurrences today, they were commonplace in the bible and often executed with direct orders from God himself. The Old Testament is littered with the most inhumane stories imaginable, whole societies were claimed to be wiped out because they were different and not “the chosen”. One could question that if humans were created by God then surely we are all his children, and as a loving father would we not all be His?

Why would anyone support a religion that has such horrific moral foundations. Admittedly, Christians espouse a lot of positive moral positions, but they do so by blatantly ignoring what is tin the very book that they insist is the foundation of their beliefs. And, more often than not, their actions are much more in keeping with the Bible, than the words they spew.

Now, do I want to pass laws, like the dominionists do, to force Christians to give up their religion? No. But, so long as Christians go about spewing their bullshit, I will continue to point out that it is bullshit.

The Bible endorses slavery? Did you ever read the bit about Moses leading his people out of slavery? Did you ever read the bit about Moses implementing the Sabbath, even for slaves within their own camp? Did you even mention the fact that slaves within the Hebrew nation were granted their freedom about every 7 years?

No, you failed to mention all those things.

Slavery may not have disappeared in the Israelite camp, but it was well on it's way thanks to the new freedoms introduced by Mosaic law. BTW, slavery was merely a means of survival for those down and out and without family connections, not a racially based oppression that was never ending like the one from which the escaped.

 

[fncceo]

This is a religion that has, rightly, been used to justify slavery.

Just to be clear ... are there currently any xtians who keep slaves and use their scriptures to justify it? For that matter, any Jews either?

From a historical perspective, there were more calls for the abolition of slavery coming from the pulpit than from any other segment of society.

Could it be that religions, like morality, evolve along with society?

 

[godsandmen]

This is a religion that has, rightly, been used to justify slavery.

Could it be that religions, like morality, evolve along with society?

Indeed it could. Nearly all of the change (progress) that has occurred in religion has happened as a direct result of the influence of secular society.

 

[fncceo]

Nearly all of the change (progress) that has occurred in religion has happened as a direct result of the influence of secular society.

Would you like just a few examples of how you might be mistaken?

I could furnish a hundred or so more if you're not satisfied. In fact, since abolition to civil rights, the religious communities of America have been in the forefront of social change.

 

[Czernobog]

I personally have no belief in the scriptures of the 'so-called' New Testament but why can't you just let them have it?

Let people believe what they want to believe.

Because what they believe is dangerous. This is a religion that has, rightly, been used to justify slavery. After all, the bible was quite clear, in multiple places, that God is just fine with slavery: Leviticus 25:44-46, and just in case anyone wants to insist that "the Old testament doesn't count, any more", we have Hebrews 21: 2-6. The Bible even gives rules on how to properly maintain your slaves: Exodus 21:20-21. So, yeah, The Christian Bible is perfectly fine with slavery. Fortunately our secular government, decided that it wasn't.

Then, of course there are the multiple cases of genocide being endorsed. This might explain why so many different Christian politicians and organizations will stop at nothing to prevent preventative measures being implemented that will prolong an individual’s life. The Catholic Church has historically been opposed to condom use with the likely outcome that many people needlessly contracted diseases and had their lives affected purely because of the church’s dogma. Now, while occurrences such as genocide, murder, rape, slavery, looting are seen as horrific occurrences today, they were commonplace in the bible and often executed with direct orders from God himself. The Old Testament is littered with the most inhumane stories imaginable, whole societies were claimed to be wiped out because they were different and not “the chosen”. One could question that if humans were created by God then surely we are all his children, and as a loving father would we not all be His?

Why would anyone support a religion that has such horrific moral foundations. Admittedly, Christians espouse a lot of positive moral positions, but they do so by blatantly ignoring what is tin the very book that they insist is the foundation of their beliefs. And, more often than not, their actions are much more in keeping with the Bible, than the words they spew.

Now, do I want to pass laws, like the dominionists do, to force Christians to give up their religion? No. But, so long as Christians go about spewing their bullshit, I will continue to point out that it is bullshit.

The Bible endorses slavery? Did you ever read the bit about Moses leading his people out of slavery? Did you ever read the bit about Moses implementing the Sabbath, even for slaves within their own camp? Did you even mention the fact that slaves within the Hebrew nation were granted their freedom about every 7 years?

No, you failed to mention all those things.

Slavery may not have disappeared in the Israelite camp, but it was well on it's way thanks to the new freedoms introduced by Mosaic law. BTW, slavery was merely a means of survival for those down and out and without family connections, not a racially based oppression that was never ending like the one from which the escaped.

Bullshit. Slavery was enshrined by mosaic law, and numerous characters in the OT owned multiple slaves. You want to whitewash the biblical endorsement of slavery with one myth about Israelites running away from Egypt? Laughable.

 

[Czernobog]

This is a religion that has, rightly, been used to justify slavery.

Just to be clear ... are there currently any xtians who keep slaves and use their scriptures to justify it? For that matter, any Jews either?

From a historical perspective, there were more calls for the abolition of slavery coming from the pulpit than from any other segment of society.

Could it be that religions, like morality, evolve along with society?

No. No, it couldn't.

 

[fncceo]

No. No, it couldn't.

And I'll leave you to that myopic and parochial belief.

 

[HaShev]

I'm not a fanatical inerrant kind of guy. Even inconsistencies can be seen in the OT, like who killed Goliath. (See Chronicles 20:5 and 2 Samuel 21:19) After all, the Bible does not claim to be inerrant, other people do.

I go by the overall message of the Bible that repeats, which is faith, hope, and love. There is also the general theme of a Messiah to come to save humanity. However, from an archeology perspective, the Bible is accurate enough to create a whole branch of archeology from which to draw information from. For example, scientists had no proof that the Philistines existed, but just went digging where the Bible said they were and found them. I believe everyone mentioned in the Bible to be historically real, and yes, the Israelites were slaves in Egypt and God delivered them. I know of no other scientific discipline that was created from a religious text. Pretty impressive.

Having said that, I'm most impressed by two prophesies, Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:24-27.

Reading Isaiah 53, you would probably be persuaded that the NT was written to match it word for word. Well that is all well and good except for one problem. Why would God seek to punish and "innocent and blameless" man?

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth


10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light and be satisfied
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Then there is Daniel 9. Here we have a calendar for the coming of the Messiah. Naturally, Christians calculate the calendar to the time of Christ as where those who don't believe dispute this. However, in the Talmud we see rabbis calculate the time and forbid people to calculate it because it points to the time of Jesus.

Further, rabbis are told that "Jesus tarries" because the time has already passed for the coming of their Messiah. Because they reject their Messiah, they reason that God simply changed his mind due to the sinfulness of Israel.

As for John being anti-Semitic, you are nuts.

I'm guessing you are easily swayed by fake news?
Isaiah 53 is not messianic & is PLURAL PAST TENSE not singular fiture tense. Context talks about Israel being the servent over 14 times in Isaiah. Israel became disfigured and despised, Jesus is written to be popular throughout the NT so are you saying the NT lies?
Daniel 9 is also not messianic.
The word in Isaiah is "an" anointed, not THE ANOINTED ONE. KINGS were anointed.


Placement of Jesus in Dan 9 is the earliest form of fake news=fake narative.

Let me explain Dan 9 so you see it revealed.
The events Daniel is prophecizing already occured before Jesus and the events of the temple you propose occured after Jesus making the correlation impossible even if you avoided history and thought it didn’t occur yet.
Daniel is talking about "an anointed place" and an anointed (King)
not THE ANOINTED ONE.
*notice word play deceptions to paint false placement*
Now to review why these events already occured:
Dan 9: There is a 7-week (49-year) span between the actual destruction of Jerusalem in 586 (beginning the exile and realizing the decree in 538bc to rebuild), and the end of the exile brought about by the arrival of ‘AN’ anointed one not “THE” anointed one . Kings and High Priests were anointed as AN anointed one but not THE anointed one. Thus we must notice the wording is “an anointed one” not “THE” anointed one.

Dan 9:24 says anoint the holy place not an anointed man. Daniel 9:25 says, "from the time the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was issued, until AN annointed one, a ruler, it will be seven weeks". If the decree is indeed sometime around the beginning of the full Exile, 586 b.c.e., then who is the anointed one mentioned? And, GOD already has referred to ruler Cyrus as his Anointed in
Isaiah 45:1: 70 years after the destruction Cyrus rebuilt the Temple in other words it's completion in 516BC
Here's the reference of this ‘70 years’ by the Historian Josephus in Antiquities 11.1.1: Ant. 11.1.1 "In the first year of the reign of Cyrus, which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they has served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that SERVITUDE seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity; and these things God did afford them."

Daniel 9:26
And after the sixty-two weeks,an anointed one will be cut off,
and there will be nothing to him.
and the people of a ruler who shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary,
and the end of it/him shall be with a flood,,
and, until the end of the war, desolations are decreed.

62 weeks (434 years) leads us to around 152 b.c.e. the time of antiochus desolation and destruction of the temple. The anointed one was the king who was cut off. High Priest Onias III, who was assasinated (cut off) in 171 b.c.e. In 168 b.c.e., the middle of the next "week" of years (171-165 b.c.e.), ruler Antiochus IV (who had Onias killed) pillaged Jerusalem. Antiochus IV matches the "ruler to come",

Furthermore if you ever read the commentary on Daniel and Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls the liberator &
HaSheva (redeemer) is already named as Michael (the Evening Star- rises
-Dan 12:1-4) thus Daniels Visions of the Night (Evening Star Shalem) is of son of man (Shalem)-Dan7:7, 7:13.

Conclusion: learn to discern "tenses",
least you be duped & played by people who manipulate words to change the narrative for sake of propaganda, like our tabloid news does today.

Fake news?

Most modern rabbis try to deny the messianic application of Daniel 9:24-27, however, it is well established that rabbis of old believed that this prophesy pinpointed the time of the coming of the Messiah. In fact, many in the Qumran community (the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls) believed that they were living in the very generation to which this prophesy pointed. (Biblical Archaeology Review, Nov/Dec 1992 p.58)

In the Babylonian Talmud, compiled between A. D 200-500, ancient rabbis commented on the time of the Messiah's coming and Daniels seventy weeks prophecy.

Regarding the times referred to in Daniel's prophecy, Rabbi Judah, the main compiler of the Talmud, said: "These times were over long ago" (Babylonia Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a

In the 12th century A. D., Rabbi Moses Ben Moimon (Maimonides), one of the most respected rabbis in history, and a man who rejected the messianic claims of Jesus of Nazareth, said regarding Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy: "Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the end times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah" (Igeret Teiman, chapter 3 p. 24)

Finally, Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi said regarding the time of the Messiah's coming: "I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of the Messiah clearly fixed, EXCEPT in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel." (The Messiah of the Targums, Talumuds and Rabbinical Writers, 1971)

There, references and all. Anyone who is seriously interested, and not here to troll, knock yourself out!

You did not refute the fact that it "is not" a messianic verse.
Furthermore it helps to know you proved my point and dating of the weeks leading to anointed high priest Onias lll and the desecration of the Temple*. The scrolls you discuss were written at that time period discussing that time period. The wicked Priest was one of King Jannaeus uncles.

Lastly using the Dead Sea Scroll argument totally destroys your Jesus claim, since the Scrolls Daniel and Isaiah commentary call Michael the Liberator and mention Jesus not once.
*History lesson:
High Priest Onias III, was assasinated (cut off) in 171 BCE. In 168 BCE, the middle of the next "week" of years (171-165 BCE), ruler Antiochus IV (who had Onias killed) pillaged Jerusalem. Antiochus IV matches the "ruler to come", and Daniel coninues to refer to his deeds in the middle of the week: - Dan 9:27- They (Romans) did cause the sacrifice to cease.

 

[alang1216]

If Christians made up Jesus they would have done a much better job since Jesus was not what the Jews were expecting from their messiah.

Not at all. By the time Christianity was getting invented in the second century, they had kind of given up on converting the Jews. They just borrowed a backstory.

So there was Christianity for 200 years before they invented Jesus? What was Christianity based on if not Jesus?

I think Jesus was very real and became a Jewish cult leader after the death of John. That cult, like all cults that survive, became a religion in its own right. Christians certainly reinvented the historical Jesus as their Christ.

 

[JoeB131]

Just to be clear ... are there currently any xtians who keep slaves and use their scriptures to justify it? For that matter, any Jews either?

From a historical perspective, there were more calls for the abolition of slavery coming from the pulpit than from any other segment of society.

Could it be that religions, like morality, evolve along with society?

No, dude, that's a copout.

Either you think the Bible is the unerring word of God, which means you should be enslaving your neighbors and stoning your daughters, or you don't.

Instead what you fundy morons do is pick and choose the things you like.

 

[JoeB131]

So there was Christianity for 200 years before they invented Jesus? What was Christianity based on if not Jesus?

No, Second Century AD. That said, I think there were probably a lot of things called "Christianity" that weren't. For instance, in one letter, Emperor Hadrian (r. 117-138) writes to a friend that in Alexandria, the worshipers or Jesus and Serapis are pretty much interchangable.

Again, what became "Christianity" happens after Constantine decided to make it the State religion in 303 AD and they decided to trim the hundreds of books they had down to the 26 that make up the new testament.

I think Jesus was very real and became a Jewish cult leader after the death of John. That cult, like all cults that survive, became a religion in its own right. Christians certainly reinvented the historical Jesus as their Christ.

Here's the thing, there were probably a lot of would be messiahs at that time, and more then a few of them were named Yeshua (Jesus).

And maybe some of their stories got incorporated in the Jesus Myth.

But it was a myth.

 

[norwegen]

Nearly all of the change (progress) that has occurred in religion has happened as a direct result of the influence of secular society.

Would you like just a few examples of how you might be mistaken?

I could furnish a hundred or so more if you're not satisfied. In fact, since abolition to civil rights, the religious communities of America have been in the forefront of social change.

And even before abolition. In Colonial America, Christian churches were essentially the only places that slaves and Indians could enjoy some equality with others.

In the first century, even, Christians recognized the reality of slavery, the subjects of which Jesus extended salvation.

To don a biblical cloak - slave traders, Nazis, the Reverend Jimmy Jones - may be a clever ploy, but in the Christian world, the strong and the weak are the same; the lion lies down with the lamb.