Mass shooting in Britain....a little late, but is about average time for a mass shooting in Britain...

[2aguy]

Ahh, so now you move the goalposts. Sorry, that's not what you asked.

No.....you didn't answer the question...you dodged....I will repeat them....

Also, you are not Superman....you are not at the scene......you are not there to intervene, she is on her own as most women are at the time of violent attacks.......

You get to answer these questions.....which you refuse to do..

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

You are given the ability to travel in time......knowing this woman is about to be brutally beaten, raped and murdered.....do you go back in time and take that gun away from her before the rape?

 

[Vagabond63]

He hasn't been debunked.....they have made claims about his research that aren't correct, and then idiots like you parrot those false claims.....

Then, the Centers For Disease Control did the same research to "debunk," Kleck...came out with the same numbers and didn't release the data....the Department of Justice, under bill clinton, used two anti-gun extremists to also debunk Kleck....and they also came out with the same numbers.....

You guys lie.....and then expect people to just accept it...

Here is Kleck and the other 16 studies that looked at gun self defense numbers....notice the CDC, both in the 90s and under obama, and the clinton DOJ research...you idiot.


A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

Perfect. Thank you. you've just conclusively demonstrated that no-one knows how many times a gun is used in self defence. It's all guesswork and extrapolation. If there was any hard solid factual data, all these "studies" would arrive at similar figures, within a small margin of error.

Oh, the CDC never carried out their own research into DGUs, they carried out a tiny survey which they found didn't tell them anything meaningful, then they basically did what you've done, looked at the data from other studies and decided they couldn't reach a valid conclusion either, so shelved the project until Kleck showed up and cherry picked the data they'd aquired to support his whacko-theories.

 

[Vagabond63]

No.....you didn't answer the question...you dodged....I will repeat them....

Also, you are not Superman....you are not at the scene......you are not there to intervene, she is on her own as most women are at the time of violent attacks.......

You get to answer these questions.....which you refuse to do..

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

You are given the ability to travel in time......knowing this woman is about to be brutally beaten, raped and murdered.....do you go back in time and take that gun away from her before the rape?

Well, if I can't intervene, then my opinion is irrellevant, as the question as written in bold cannot be answered. As I've said before, this is a non-question. There's your answer.

 

[2aguy]

Perfect. Thank you. you've just conclusively demonstrated that no-one knows how many times a gun is used in self defence. It's all guesswork and extrapolation. If there was any hard solid factual data, all these "studies" would arrive at similar figures, within a small margin of error.

Oh, the CDC never carried out their own research into DGUs, they carried out a tiny survey which they found didn't tell them anything meaningful, then they basically did what you've done, looked at the data from other studies and decided they couldn't reach a valid conclusion either, so shelved the project until Kleck showed up and cherry picked the data they'd aquired to support his whacko-theories.

No guesswork, actual research techniques conducted 17 times by different research groups, both government and private.....

The CDC did the research that didn't post the numbers.....supporting large numbers of gun self defense was not what they wanted....

Then, in 2013.....obama had them spend 10 million dollars to look at all gun research and they founde between 500,000 and 3 million ........looking at all the research in the hopes of once again debunking Kleck, and they failed....

 

[2aguy]

Well, if I can't intervene, then my opinion is irrellevant, as the question as written in bold cannot be answered. As I've said before, this is a non-question. There's your answer.

It is a real question since actual women have used guns to stop violent rapes.....you don't want to answer because your answer is obvious..

You want the woman to be raped instead of using a gun to stop it.

Be a man, or woman, or whatever you classify yourself, and just admit it...

Of the two outcomes, a woman being raped, or using a gun to stop the rape, you prefer the rape...

Be brave, you idiot.

 

[2aguy]

Perfect. Thank you. you've just conclusively demonstrated that no-one knows how many times a gun is used in self defence. It's all guesswork and extrapolation. If there was any hard solid factual data, all these "studies" would arrive at similar figures, within a small margin of error.

Oh, the CDC never carried out their own research into DGUs, they carried out a tiny survey which they found didn't tell them anything meaningful, then they basically did what you've done, looked at the data from other studies and decided they couldn't reach a valid conclusion either, so shelved the project until Kleck showed up and cherry picked the data they'd aquired to support his whacko-theories.

The actual research....by actual research professionals, from both private and government research groups, primarily anti-gun in their beliefs...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

 

[Vagabond63]

No guesswork, actual research techniques conducted 17 times by different research groups, both government and private.....

...and they all came up with different numbers that varied wildly. Proof positive that it's all BS guesswork and extrapolation.

 

[Vagabond63]

Carry on cutting and pasting the same stuff, it just proves my point over and over.

 

[Vagabond63]

It is a real question since actual women have used guns to stop violent rapes...

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

 

[2aguy]

...and they all came up with different numbers that varied wildly. Proof positive that it's all BS guesswork and extrapolation.

All well over 400,000, and the government researchers, who specifically tried to debunk Kleck's work came up with the same number after creating their own research model........you have no point.....17 studies, versus you just saying.....no, it doesn't count.....

 

[2aguy]

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

Are you this mentally stunted?

A man dragging a women into an alley at knifepoint or simply beating her down doesn't need a gun....a woman needs a gun to defend herself..........even if he does use a gun, her not having one doesn't help her, and having one can save her......

You still didn't answer the questions...

Be brave, just admit....for you, the woman being beaten, raped and murdered is better than she have a gun to stop it.......just be brave and admit that that is your position since you won't answer the questions...

A woman is grabbed by a violent serial rapist at a bus stop, a train platform or in her apartment...he plans on beating, raping and murdering her. She has a gun, and can stop the rape with the gun......

Do you want her to use that gun to stop the rape?

You are given the ability to travel in time......knowing this woman is about to be brutally beaten, raped and murdered.....do you go back in time and take that gun away from her before the rape?

Do you admit that you prefer she be beaten, raped and murdered and not have the chance to stop the attack using a gun?

 

[2aguy]

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

Men don't need guns to rape women....women need guns to stop rapes......

What I want you to know on Gun Violence Awareness Day

I correctly listened to my instincts; I had a feeling that my life was in danger in that elevator and prepared myself mentally for what was potentially to come.

I ran to my car in an attempt to escape and, before I could even get my entire body in my car, I was tackled by my attacker.

This man quickly overpowered me, stabbed at me with a knife, clamped his hand over my mouth multiple times, and repeatedly tried forcing me in the passenger seat of my car while telling me, “We’re going.”

The entire time this was happening, a rusted, serrated knife was being stabbed towards my abdomen and held at my face.

I had been hit in the face, thrown over my driver’s side console, and had rips in my tights from his hands trying to force my legs up and over into the passenger seat.

There are some individuals that think gun owners are “trigger happy” and wanting to pull their weapons out at the first opportunity. There is nothing further from the truth.

The night I was attacked, I fought like hell for my life before reaching for my gun. I kicked, I screamed, I had all ten fingernails ripped off and bloodied from scratching and trying to fight my way out of a literal life and death situation.
Ultimately, I accessed my gun, shot my attacker multiple times, and saved my life. He will be spending years in prison for what he did to me.

Using a gun in self-protection is not a decision one makes lightly; in fact, I never dreamed that I would be forced into a situation where I would have to do so. However, I also never imagined such evil existing in the world so that I would be powerless, wounded, on my back and unable to physically force my attacker off of me.

I owned a gun and had been trained on how to use it. I know how to safely carry and that a gun is a serious and significant weapon; it is not to be used carelessly. Naysayers and people with opposing opinions may try to undermine my situation with hypotheticals. I cannot answer these questions. All I can do is tell the facts of my story and the true account of how I saved my own life.

What I want you to know on Gun Awareness Day is that a gun in the hands of a potential victim is not improperly placed; it can be the only thing keeping her from being brutally raped and murdered.

Without my gun, I would not be alive today.


Guns are not the problem in America; men like my attacker -- who are willing to violently change one person’s life for no reason except for pure evil – are the problem.

Be safe at all times. Be aware of your surroundings. Trust your instincts. Always be able to protect yourself. Refuse to be a victim, and instead be a fighter and a survivor. Live to tell your tale and make a criminal regret the day he chose you as a “soft target.” My gun saved my life, and one could save yours too.
===============

Waking up to an armed intruder in your house would be any home owner’s worst nightmare. If you’re a single mother with two young kids in the house, finding a man wielding a machete in your bedroom closet immediately kicks you into “momma bear” mode.

That’s what happened to a California woman who woke up to the sound of a man rummaging through her walk-in closet. The thief — Ocean Burger (his name, not a restaurant) — was armed with a number of knives and a machete when the un-named woman grabbed a handgun and confronted him.

From ksbw.com . . .


[Investigators] say Burger ignored orders to leave and when the homeowner fired several warning shots he allegedly advanced towards her, that’s when the mother fired at the accused burglar hitting him in the leg. And California law may be on her side.

Warning shots are never a good idea and could even put you in legal jeopardy in many jurisdictions. In this case, they not only wasted perfectly good (and expensive) ammunition, but probably led Burger to believe she wasn’t serious about actually shooting him.

After advancing on the woman, the round in his leg apparently convinced Burger that he was wrong.

The good news is California actually has a castle doctrine law on the books. The woman had no duty to retreat and was legally justified in using deadly force to defend herself and her children.

“There is a presumption that favors the homeowner they’re presumed that the person is in imminent fear of either death or great bodily injury,” said Ellen Campos, assistant district attorney for San Benito county. …

California Woman Shoots Machete-Wielding Burglar She Found in Her Closet - The Truth About Guns
=============

Now.....since you refuser to answer the questions I have posted..........we can tell what you think of this woman's attack..

1) She should not be allowed to have that gun.....

That is your stated position.....

2) It is better that this violent, brutal attacker complete the kidnapping, likely beating, rape and murder of this woman.....than that she used a gun to save her life......

Those are the 2 truths you are a coward and refuse to admit....

 

[2aguy]

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

Here......hit in the face with a stick, and she still drives off her attacker....because she had a gun........

For you, the best result is rape, beating, likely murder........right? For you that is better than her stopping the attack with a gun.....

Tell me differently....

Woman Scares off Assailant With Stick. Just Kidding, it was a gun.

Just before 7pm on Wednesday night, a 29 year-old woman had gathered up her dog and headed outside to… well, to let her dog do what dogs do.

Upon her first step outside her Minot, North Dakota home, she was hit solidly in the face with a blunt object, knocking her backward down the stairs and into her home.

Her assailant followed her into her home and started to approach her, but the woman had made it to a cabinet where she retrieved a handgun to protect herself and her home.

When confronted with the firearm, the violent intruder and would-be robber/rapist/murderer fled the scene.

The smart, independent, gun-owning woman did not require medical attention, most likely due to the fact that she was able to pull a weapon on her assailant to end the attack.

 

[2aguy]

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

Here.....3 men invade a home....likely just to get a spot of tea and biscuits......isn't that what you Brits drink during violent home invasions?

And these guys even have a gun........and because she has a gun, you dimwit......she makes them run away and lives...

Tell us again that a man with a gun can still rape a woman who has a gun....

3-1 and they all ran away.......

Three men break into a home in Trotwood, Ohio. [Click here to watch the video.] They’re all armed. It is before 6 am, just three days after Christmas. One of the men is armed with a Tec-9 pistol. He enters last. The other two hold what appear to be conventional semi-auto pistols. They bypass two sleeping children to find the mother. The surveillance video shows the three following the mother after they pistol whipped her in the laundry room.

The man directly behind her has the Tec-9. Presumably holds her at gunpoint while the other two attempt to drag off a safe, in a room with two more children. While the two men are occupied with the safe, the woman breaks free from her captor, accesses a hidden pistol, and starts to fire.

All three run, but the Tec-9 gunman, Azikiwe Presley, is mortally wounded. His body is found 100 yards from the house. From wdtn.com:

“I got my gun and I started shooting and they ran,” the female caller told dispatchers. “They all three had guns, I’m confused … they must not have had bullets because after I pulled the trigger they just took off, instead of firing back. I don’t know if I hit one or not, I don’t see blood anywhere.”

In this case, the recipient of female dedication to protecting innocent life ran a hundred yards and died. It is not uncommon for a man who is fatally shot to run that far, even with a heart/lung shot. As he was likely the one holding the woman at gunpoint, and the closest, greatest, threat with the Tec-9, it is not surprising that he drew the lethal ticket. Whether through choice or happenstance, the mother made the right tactical decision.
=========


Again....your preferred outcome......if they decide to beat, rape and murder her.....that's the good outcome...her shooting at them is the bad outcome....

That is what you believe......

 

[2aguy]

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

And here ...... I am sure if this woman didn't have the gun....which is what you want........she simply had to say to the criminal in her home...

"Excuse me young sir, you have mistakenly entered my home without permission....so please, extricate yourself with all due haste..."

Instead.....she used her gun to run him off.......do you think this would have been the outcome if she didn't have that gun...

Armed South Carolina Woman Chases Off Daytime Home Invader - The Truth About Guns

When Ms. Reeves ran across Ralph Goss slithering around inside her home yesterday in the middle of the afternoon, she drew her firearm. Staring down that barrel was enough to change Goss’s mind about whatever it was he had planned.

“I’m one of those people that can go from zero to a hundred in 2.5 seconds and I’m not a nice person normally, but as soon as I got on the phone with the sheriff’s department he was out of sight. The severity of it hit me, and I was in hysterics. I was crying, I was scared, I was very shaken.”

Oconee County deputies tracked Goss down within hours of Ms. Reeves’ call. And surprise! He already had several outstanding warrants for his arrest.

 

[2aguy]

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

Hmmmmm....maybe this guy with the knife thought the woman was an Uber....and simply forgot to put the knife away after having a bit of spam........

Attacker with knife flees after woman reveals her concealed carry gun, police say

A woman in Illinois was reportedly able to protect herself with her concealed carry firearm after a stranger with a knife jumped into her car.

Police said a woman who was parked near a shopping mall in Moline on Sunday was attacked by a man who fought his way into her car, according to WQAD 8.

During the fight, the man reportedly slashed the woman’s arm with a knife. He then ordered the woman to drive to Rock Island County, a rural area, according to police.

Once the woman stopped the car, she was able to reach her gun, which she had a concealed carry firearm permit for, WQAD 8 reported.

After the attacker saw the weapon, he reportedly ran off and she was able to drive herself to the hospital.

Police subsequently opened an investigation and arrested Floyd R. May, 61.

May was charged with aggravated kidnapping, aggravated battery with a weapon, unlawful use of a weapon by a felon and aggravated assault.

===========

Okay.....you tell us........what do you think would have happened to this woman if she hadn't had that gun?

Please.......enlighten us oh smart one......

Now....admit to us that for you.....it would be better that she was raped, stabbed and murdered.....rather than she have that gun to save herself....

Don't be a coward...admit what you believe.......you would prefer this woman was raped, likely beaten, tortured, stabbed to death....than that she have that gun to stop the attack.....

Admit that......

 

[2aguy]

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

Now admit that for you, it would have been better if the woman this guy stabbed had died, than that she used a gun to save herself.....

Admit it...

A woman who shot a man after he stabbed her multiple times Thursday afternoon in Lawndale acted in self-defense and will not be charged, police said.

Fatal Lawndale shooting ruled self-defense, woman not charged

Charges against the 25-year-old woman, who was stabbed multiple times, were rejected when the shooting was ruled self-defense.

chicago.suntimes.com

 

[Likkmee]

C'mon man. Better late than never !

 

[2aguy]

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

And how many women who are 5 months pregnant can defeat a violent criminal in hand to hand combat?

This woman didn't have to find out...she had a gun...

Mom-to-be shoots intruder with her pink pistol

A man is recovering from a gunshot wound after he broke into a Birmingham home early Friday morning and came face-to-face with a pregnant woman who was ready to protect herself and her baby.

Marquita Turner said she heard the suspect remove the air conditioning unit from a side window around 2:20 a.m. Once the unit was out, the suspect climbed right inside, but he likely wasn’t expecting to meet Turner with her pink Taurus Millennium 9mm.

“I grabbed my gun when I woke up. And I walked out of the door and I saw them, the guy in the hallway … he was kind of close to me so I shot and he fell,” Turner told reporters with alocal NBC affiliate.

Turner said she fired two or three rounds and struck the intruder once, then turned on the lights and called the police. Once they arrived, the suspect was taken to the hospital for treatment. He was expected to survive.

Turner, who is currently five months pregnant, said she purchased her gun two years ago for protection, but she’s never been to the range or otherwise had any type of training or target practice. Still, she’s glad she had the means to protect herself when she needed to. She said she doesn’t know what could have happened had she not be able to protect herself and her unborn baby.

 

[2aguy]

Have they? If that's the case then given the ease that criminals in the US can aquire guns, I suspect we'll end up seeing more rapes at gunpoint, won't we?

More guns with rapes?

This guy had a gun to this woman's head.....and she still managed to shoot him with her own gun...

And how would this have turned out if she hadn't had that gun?

With a Gun to her Head, This Woman Knew How to Level the Playing Field (and her assailant)

Police in Glendale, AZ said it was in the early morning hours on Monday when 23-year-old Carol Miracle stopped in at a Circle K convenience store at 59th Avenue and Camelback Road and encountered a violent armed robber.

When police responded to a call of shots fired at approximately 1 a.m., witnesses at the scene said they saw 27-year-old Frank Taylor holding a gun to Carol’s head in an apparent armed robbery.
But even with a gun to her head, the young woman knew how to level the playing field with her assailant, and was well equipped to do so.

As Taylor held the barrel to her skull, Carol reached for her own gun holstered at her hip. She drew her weapon and took aim, firing one shot to end the attack.

Taylor was transported to a nearby hospital where he died from his injuries.

Police said Carol also called 9-1-1 to report the shooting from her home, which is in walking distance from the convenience store, and told police she was in fear for her life.

And again.......for you, the better outcome would have been whatever the criminal wanted to do to this woman........