Major archeological find off shores of India

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The vestiges of what many believe to be a lost, ancient civilisation have been discovered off the coast of western India.

What has been described as a vast city, stretching more than five miles (8km) long and two miles (3km) wide, was discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in the Gulf of Khambhat (previously known as the Gulf of Cambay).

The most exciting part of the discovery, which was made by the National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) back in December 2000, is that it could rewrite human history as we know it.

However, more than two decades since the landmark find, experts are still at loggerheads over the age and significance of the archaeological site, which has come to be known as the Gulf of Khambhat Cultural Complex (GKCC).

The city-like structures were uncovered by NIOT by chance as they performed routine pollution surveys in the region.

Using sonar technology, the team identified huge geometrical structures deep down on the seafloor.

Debris recovered from the site included pottery, beads, sculptures, sections of walls and human bones and teeth, with carbon dating finding these to be nearly 9,500 years old, BBC News reported at the time.

It predates the largest of ancient cities some 4000 years ago.

And for all you Noah's ark fans, there is this

“Now, [our new findings] suggest that the Harappans were descended from an advanced mother culture that flourished at the end of the last Ice Age that was then submerged by rising sea levels before ‘history’ began.”

He went on: “It was generally believed that a well-organised civilisation could not have existed prior to 5500 [before the present day]. Many were reluctant to accept that the flood myths mentioned in many ancient religious writings held some grains of truth.”
 

The vestiges of what many believe to be a lost, ancient civilisation have been discovered off the coast of western India.

What has been described as a vast city, stretching more than five miles (8km) long and two miles (3km) wide, was discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in the Gulf of Khambhat (previously known as the Gulf of Cambay).

The most exciting part of the discovery, which was made by the National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) back in December 2000, is that it could rewrite human history as we know it.

However, more than two decades since the landmark find, experts are still at loggerheads over the age and significance of the archaeological site, which has come to be known as the Gulf of Khambhat Cultural Complex (GKCC).

The city-like structures were uncovered by NIOT by chance as they performed routine pollution surveys in the region.

Using sonar technology, the team identified huge geometrical structures deep down on the seafloor.


Debris recovered from the site included pottery, beads, sculptures, sections of walls and human bones and teeth, with carbon dating finding these to be nearly 9,500 years old, BBC News reported at the time.

It predates the largest of ancient cities some 4000 years ago.

And for all you Noah's ark fans, there is this

“Now, [our new findings] suggest that the Harappans were descended from an advanced mother culture that flourished at the end of the last Ice Age that was then submerged by rising sea levels before ‘history’ began.”

He went on: “It was generally believed that a well-organised civilisation could not have existed prior to 5500 [before the present day]. Many were reluctant to accept that the flood myths mentioned in many ancient religious writings held some grains of truth.”
You had me until Noahs Ark. They still havent found that yet.
 
You had me until Noahs Ark. They still havent found that yet.
Yea, not many people were a fan of Noah when he was alive either.

Seems they were either mocking him for building his boat or cursing him for letting them all drown by not letting them on his boat.

Go figure.

:auiqs.jpg:
 
Yea, not many people were a fan of Noah when he was alive either.

Seems they were either mocking him for building his boat or cursing him for letting them all drown by not letting them on his boat.

Go figure.

:auiqs.jpg:
Maybe, just maybe, he didnt actually exist ?
 
You had me until Noahs Ark. They still havent found that yet.
Because....
It was set up as a tourist trap and the wood carved into amulets and talismans to ward off evil several thousands of years ago.

That's why it's never been found. Sold off by the ounce....
 
The city is a miracle to still be in existence....the only reason they found it was they were finding a new place to dump trash in the ocean.

However, the age of the city is in dispute. A piece of wood is not reliable for carbon dating a find under the ocean in a location with strong currents.

The pottery MIGHT be better....but again same problems arise.

It's going to take time before this discovery is fully studied sufficiently to make heads or tails out of it.

The size is remarkable. I'll give them that.
But they will need divers and drones to search out the city.
PLUS stop the looters from taking everything of value from the place.
 
Wood preservation is rare...
Especially UNDER THE OCEAN....because wood floats.

Just saying that the laws of physics haven't changed in 9,000 years.
 
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Especially UNDER THE OCEAN....because wood floats.

Just saying that the laws of physics haven't changed in 9,000 years.

No. Especially under the ocean where you have a corrosive environment and a lot of life forms that will start destroying it as soon as it's submerged.

For an example, look no farther than any shipwreck in the ocean. Within 100 years a wooden vessel will barely resemble a ship outline at all, and in less than 200 years it's just a pile of random debris being destroyed.

But look in fresh water, and you can see shipwrecks that are 300+ years old that still actually look like ships.

Such as the Le Griffon, lost in Lake Ontario in 1679.

bc-us-lake-ontario-sloop-shipwreck-img-jpg.jpg


And for most "artifacts", it would not be the same as they would have been buried under the ground before the area was inundated by water. But finding settlements off the coast is nothing new, almost every coastal area has such sites, most have simply never been discovered yet is all.
 
But I thought the Tigris Euphrates flooded locally and created the Myth of a worldwide flood
 
But I thought the Tigris Euphrates flooded locally and created the Myth of a worldwide flood

Almost every culture on the planet has a "Flood Myth". The one of the Jewish-Christian Bible traces back to Gilgamesh.

However, the Hindus in India have one as well that is amazingly similar. As do the Greeks, where Zeus sent the flood to punish humanity. The Cheyenne and many American Indian tribes also have flood myths. And almost all of them have a good man and his family being saved after being instructed to build a boat.

Myself, I actually tend to believe it is remnants of an even more ancient mythology. One long lost to time, but probably predating all of the others and where they originated. One thing that has long fascinated me is how similar a great many religions are, even half a world away and cut off from each other for over 14,000 years.
 
There are marine fossils thousands of feet of elevation even in the Himalayas, and in the ME and in Central and South America. No one has to 'steal' flood stories from anywhere, they exist all over for a reason. Mount Ararat has them as well.



Has a fairly detailed geological timeline for the region of Israel.


But it’s down in the Arava, where I live, that the limestone is paramount. As my geology professor once explained, the desert is a great place to learn about geology, because one’s view is not obstructed by messy things like houses and roads, plants and trees, or flowers and grass. Nothing but the bare bones of the earth, like the 3rd day of Creation. When I hike in the mountains behind Ketura, I like to look for marine fossils. Fascinating sea creatures once swam here.

Yes, sea creatures.


While their stories aren't the science we're used to, they are not just made up fantasies just pulled out of somebody's ass either. The 'fables' usually describe something they've observed, like remains of 'sea monsters', 'dragons' and the like.
 
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Almost every culture on the planet has a "Flood Myth". The one of the Jewish-Christian Bible traces back to Gilgamesh.

However, the Hindus in India have one as well that is amazingly similar. As do the Greeks, where Zeus sent the flood to punish humanity. The Cheyenne and many American Indian tribes also have flood myths. And almost all of them have a good man and his family being saved after being instructed to build a boat.

Myself, I actually tend to believe it is remnants of an even more ancient mythology. One long lost to time, but probably predating all of the others and where they originated. One thing that has long fascinated me is how similar a great many religions are, even half a world away and cut off from each other for over 14,000 years.

Exactly. They're actually 'logical' explanations on how they came to survive such events, not really having any sense of vast amounts of the time involved.
 
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Exactly. They're actually 'logical' explanations on how they came to survive such events, not really having any sense of vast amounts of the time involved.

Well, we do know that globally floods are one of the most common disasters (as in they happen on every inhabited continent, not that there was a "global flood"). But the fact that so many of them are almost the same has to give one pause to consider their being "modern retellings" of an even older myth.

One thing I realized many years ago is how many mythologies have a "popular" god who is most often not even the "most powerful". One that is the one most worshipers tend to gravitate towards. And invariably, they have a brother that they are generally opposed to. This may be to the extreme of Osiris where he was killed by Set, or they may be more of a "Trickster" god like Loki or Coyote who were also one of the creation deities. And the brother is Osiris, Thor, or Wolf. And when the deity is a trickster, they quite often are also the one that gave "gifts" to humans, like fire, pottery, and tool making.

And it really stands out when one looks at American Indian mythos. Almost universally, their "top gods" are Earth and Thunder. And the ones that tended to actually have the most "worshipers" was Wolf, the brother of Coyote. Now they had many names, like Isa and Itsapa among the Shoshone in Central and Eastern Idaho. Or M'ewe and Namim'ewe among my ancestors the Potawatomi in the Great Lakes area. From just north of modern Mexico all the way to NE Canada, Thunder, Earth, Wolf and Coyote are pretty damned universal. And interestingly, in most of Africa the place of Coyote is most commonly filled by either Rabbit or Spider (depending on if they are portrayed more as a "Trickster", or "Evil").

Even the Greeks, who before Vulcan was the god of fire, it was Prometheus (who fell out of favor and was eternally tormented for giving fire to humans). And his son Deucalion was essentially the Noah of the "Greek Flood Myth".

The "Uncle Remus" tales are actually very ancient oral folktales brought from Africa by the slaves. And among most of Western Africa, the "trickster" god was Rabbit. Hence, the use of "Brer Rabbit" so prevalently. And a great many stories actually have been traced right back to Africa. Where one of the changes was replacing Hyena with Fox. Following generations born in the Americas would have never seen a Hyena, but would be familiar with foxes. So when retelling the stories they simply substituted one for the other.

I am actually one of those that is thankful for Joel Chandler Harris for preserving the "Uncle Remus" tales. As in writing them down not only was the dialect spoken saved for posterity, but ancient folktales from another continent were saved that otherwise would have been lost.

 
Or M'ewe and Namim'ewe among my ancestors the Potawatomi in the Great Lakes area.

Algonquian language group?. The Apache seem to have come from the western central Canadian region, Athabaskan language group iirc; your northwestern neighbors. I'm not any kind of expert on native languages, just recently read a history of their wars with the Comanche and they had a table of all the native language groups. I would have expected them to be related to the Aztecan groups, so found it interesting they're Canadian and Pacific Northwest, and came to dominate northern Mexico for a long time.
 
Algonquian language group?

Yes. The Potawatomie are the "Younger Brother" of the Council of the Three Fires (Ojibwe, Odawa, and Potawatomie). Itself something rather interesting, because of what was lost in "Pre-History" (somewhere around 700 CE according to some). Those three tribes separated off far enough back to develop variations in their languages. However, They claim to be descended from a single family, with the Potawatomie being the "Younger Brother" and keeper of the hearth. The Ojibwe are the "Older Brother" and the "Keepers of the Faith", the Odawa the "Middle Brother" and "Keeper of Trade".

So odds are at some time before 700 CE, there was a single tribe in the upper Great Lakes, that peacefully broke into three other tribes. But unlike most similar situations in the past there was no fighting between them, and the tribes for over 1,000 years continued a peaceful and close relationship. In what was probably the oldest and most stable of the Pre-Columbian Indian Confederations.

As far as the Apache, they had settled in their area long before, so that is much more a case of their being isolated and stagnating. As even among the other tribes in the region, the Apache were known to be hostile towards all and not very welcoming of trade. And even where they decided to settle down, a very hostile environment where travel and trade were not easy.

The Aztec language did not spread all that far outside of the Mexico City area. That was much less like say the Roman Empire where they exported their culture and language throughout their empire. For the Aztecs, it was closer to client states that maintained rule not through trade and leadership but fear. And it was not even a particularly old Empire, only stretching about 200 years Pre-Columbian. And not particularly stable even before the Spanish arrived, as they discovered by being able to sway a great many "Client Tribes" away from the Aztecs and to follow them instead.

In particular, I have a fascination with Pre-Columbian tribes, as it is most likely the closest we will ever see to Neolithic Eurasia and Africa. And interestingly, across two continents the people were only able to develop their civilizations so far, then they just collapsed. Incans, Mayans, Toltecs, Olmecs, Aztecs, Mississipians, it is something that was repeated back well over two thousand years. The culture would advance quite a bit, then something did a "Hard Reset" and threw it right back into semi-nomadic neolithic groups again.

But the advantage is, in the Americas we can see that happening even before Europeans arrived, so it was much closer in time. Where as a similar era in Eurasia would be probably that of Otzi or older. We know of trade and commerce in Eurasia going back over 5,000 years, but that entire era of history is completely lost to us. But in the Americas, we can see what it might have been like only 500 years ago.

No, the Apache likely simply retained their language from their original forefathers that arrived there after passing through Alaska and Canada. And with little outside contact their language simply changed very little. However, the tribe that was probably the most traveled was likely the Lakota. It is known from their own oral traditions, artifacts and language that they were part of the Mississippian Culture. And originated from somewhere along the Mississippi-Louisiana Panhandle region. And when that culture broke up, they became the "Nomadic Biker Gang" of the continent.

First moving North along the Mississippi, and fighting every tribal group they came in contact with. And that would have started in the middle 1400s, a few decades before Columbus arrived in the area. At about the time of Jamestown, they had reached the Great Lakes. Where they would have fought my ancestors, and been defeated. Being forced to turn West instead of continuing North, and acquiring a new "Nickname" that still follows them ("Sioux" is an Algonquin word for "Little Rattlesnake").

And the Lakota never did settle down. By the time of the founding of the US they were pushing though Iowa and Minnesota, by the time of the Civil War they were in the Dakotas. By the time of "American Settlement" in the region they were starting to push into Wyoming and Montana. That s a rather unique culture, and one that is almost completely foreign to most in the world. They never settled down, they never really "had a home". They quite literally were always on the move, and attacked any they came across. The closest in Eurasia to them was probably the Mongols. But they also showed they could and did settle down, if they thought where they were was good enough. But the Lakota, they never settled down. And for almost 500 years moved from almost the Gulf of Mexico to Lake Superior, then turned West. Arriving at almost the foothills of the Rocky Mountains before being forced to settle down.

And if not for that, by this time they likely would be somewhere in Central Washington-Oregon about now. And most likely turning South towards California.

That is a level of nomadism that Europe had not seen in well over 2,000 years. Not even the "Barbarians" that plagued Rome were nomadic, they were simply displaced by more powerful groups and forced to move into Rome.
 
Native linguistics is a fascinating study. A comparable one is this book on Indo-European languages and their diffusion over time; it's one of my favorite books, though some of it has been superseded by new info.

 
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