CDZ Mad Men: Inside the Men's Rights Movement—and the Army of Misogynists and Trolls It Spawned

[Michelle420]

So, it's a "this is my gospel you must accept" kind of thing... bummer, discussion is much more productive.

If you read the links Disir posted you would have an answer.

Plus Disir posted ideas to be discussed in reference to issues men are experiencing and opened the discussion to pick any of them to debate.

I did not interpret it as feminist or men's rights, but simply the idea that there are some fundamental issues for men that are being overlooked and how should we address those issues?

 

[Michelle420]

--the boy crisis

--children's need for both parents (equally-shared parenting);

--why the pay gap is not about discrimination against women;

--the need for men's studies;

--a men's birth control pill's importance to both sexes;

--paternity fraud;

--male-only draft registration as a violation of the 14th Amendment;

--men as the disposable sex (in war, the "death professions", and as dads)

--the debate between society being controlled historically by patriarchy vs. by the need to survive;

--boys' and men's suicides--the reasons for the increase;

--the negative media images of men, and their negative impact on our daughters' ability to love men;

--how to listen to the other sex with love rather than argue with blame


____________________________________________________________________________



I'd really like to address the issues. Tell me what you think of the article and responses.

Again, I think a lot of these ideas mentioned are valid concerns. I am not sure why we don't discuss it more.

 

[Circe]

[

Again, I think a lot of these ideas mentioned are valid concerns. I am not sure why we don't discuss it more.

Because there's a huge imbalance, still, in favor of males, so no one is very interested in helping these poor "victims," as if.

Also because the members of male advocacy groups are such incredible WHINERS!! Why don't they just get off their bottoms and be MEN, fix their lives up? Simple: they don't because they want Mommy to make her be nice to them, whoever their problem "her" is.

 

[Michelle420]

[

Again, I think a lot of these ideas mentioned are valid concerns. I am not sure why we don't discuss it more.

Because there's a huge imbalance, still, in favor of males, so no one is very interested in helping these poor "victims," as if.

Also because the members of male advocacy groups are such incredible WHINERS!! Why don't they just get off their bottoms and be MEN, fix their lives up? Simple: they don't because they want Mommy to make her be nice to them, whoever their problem "her" is.

There are imbalances for both sexes.

 

[Circe]

Yep, it's a plot.

No! That's the interesting thing, to me. Anti-natalism is not a plot (well, I don't THINK it could be, too big and widespread) --- it's all these different incredibly new fashions of thinking that somehow, magically, all have anti-population growth effects. I mentioned easy divorce, birth control, legalized homosexuality, legal abortion, women supposed to all work outside the home ---- also all the sonograms that everyone gets now in America and India and China and in America send around to friends or show off at the baby shower: these are simply abortion tests, and no one seems to have noticed that.

None of these ideas were ever in the history of human society, at least since Rome, allowed in law, but now we are supposed to do them all and people preach at you if you don't agree.

The big "Global Warming" fraud is intrinsically anti-natalist: I have long thought it is a stalking horse for talking about over-population because white people in developed countries are of course DE-populating, so if they talk about restricting population, they are talking about blacks and browns and yellows having fewer children, but that is no longer politically correct, so they fake up a false crisis about the planet warming, even though it isn't.

Let's see, more anti-natalist thinking: women are supposed to marry late or not at all and concentrate on their careers --- thus having children late or not at all in many cases. Women are supposed to compete directly with men in careers; men aren't supposed to marry or provide for their family anymore. All this prevents a lot of births. Tremendous emphasis on prosecution of rape -- that prevents some births. Porn on the Internet a norm now, readily available and supposedly that also stops rapes and sexual seeking.

I don't think it's a plot at all: it's an inchoate attempt by the human species not to run over the population cliff, like lemmings have to do.

It won't work, though.

 

[Michelle420]

Yep, it's a plot.

No! That's the interesting thing, to me. Anti-natalism is not a plot (well, I don't THINK it could be, too big and widespread) --- it's all these different incredibly new fashions of thinking that somehow, magically, all have anti-population growth effects. I mentioned easy divorce, birth control, legalized homosexuality, legal abortion, women supposed to all work outside the home ---- also all the sonograms that everyone gets now in America and India and China and in America send around to friends or show off at the baby shower: these are simply abortion tests, and no one seems to have noticed that.

None of these ideas were ever in the history of human society, at least since Rome, allowed in law, but now we are supposed to do them all and people preach at you if you don't agree.

The big "Global Warming" fraud is intrinsically anti-natalist: I have long thought it is a stalking horse for talking about over-population because white people in developed countries are of course DE-populating, so if they talk about restricting population, they are talking about blacks and browns and yellows having fewer children, but that is no longer politically correct, so they fake up a false crisis about the planet warming, even though it isn't.

Let's see, more anti-natalist thinking: women are supposed to marry late or not at all and concentrate on their careers --- thus having children late or not at all in many cases. Women are supposed to compete directly with men in careers; men aren't supposed to marry or provide for their family anymore. All this prevents a lot of births. Tremendous emphasis on prosecution of rape -- that prevents some births. Porn on the Internet a norm now, readily available and supposedly that also stops rapes and sexual seeking.

I don't think it's a plot at all: it's an inchoate attempt by the human species not to run over the population cliff, like lemmings have to do.

It won't work, though.

Some of the things you mention have always existed the difference is that a shift in power and knowledge is taking place and as a result people are taking a different approach to the management of social issues.

 

[Disir]

--the boy crisis

--children's need for both parents (equally-shared parenting);

--why the pay gap is not about discrimination against women;

--the need for men's studies;

--a men's birth control pill's importance to both sexes;

--paternity fraud;

--male-only draft registration as a violation of the 14th Amendment;

--men as the disposable sex (in war, the "death professions", and as dads)

--the debate between society being controlled historically by patriarchy vs. by the need to survive;

--boys' and men's suicides--the reasons for the increase;

--the negative media images of men, and their negative impact on our daughters' ability to love men;

--how to listen to the other sex with love rather than argue with blame


____________________________________________________________________________



I'd really like to address the issues. Tell me what you think of the article and responses.

Again, I think a lot of these ideas mentioned are valid concerns. I am not sure why we don't discuss it more.

I don't either. I also think that one is being discussed but not promoted by the "right" people. The pay gap is one that many people understand and have been outspoken about but we (as a society) seem to have disjointed conversations. There is still the myth that women opt out which accounts for it and I think this is extremely harmful to both genders.

One that is not listed is education. There is a line of thinking that education has been feminized and little boys are expected to sit still for longer periods. That would be viable IF we pretend that testing is not an issue.

The suicides and the disposable men are something that I would like to get into. Is that in your book?

 

[Michelle420]

--the boy crisis

--children's need for both parents (equally-shared parenting);

--why the pay gap is not about discrimination against women;

--the need for men's studies;

--a men's birth control pill's importance to both sexes;

--paternity fraud;

--male-only draft registration as a violation of the 14th Amendment;

--men as the disposable sex (in war, the "death professions", and as dads)

--the debate between society being controlled historically by patriarchy vs. by the need to survive;

--boys' and men's suicides--the reasons for the increase;

--the negative media images of men, and their negative impact on our daughters' ability to love men;

--how to listen to the other sex with love rather than argue with blame


____________________________________________________________________________



I'd really like to address the issues. Tell me what you think of the article and responses.

Again, I think a lot of these ideas mentioned are valid concerns. I am not sure why we don't discuss it more.

I don't either. I also think that one is being discussed but not promoted by the "right" people. The pay gap is one that many people understand and have been outspoken about but we (as a society) seem to have disjointed conversations. There is still the myth that women opt out which accounts for it and I think this is extremely harmful to both genders.

One that is not listed is education. There is a line of thinking that education has been feminized and little boys are expected to sit still for longer periods. That would be viable IF we pretend that testing is not an issue.

The suicides and the disposable men are something that I would like to get into. Is that in your book?

Macho Paradox is more about how media shapes gender roles and the damage it does to men
• Pornography, prostitution and stripping, and how they shape men’s attitudes toward women. • Pop culture, including discussions about Eminem, Howard Stern, and Kobe Bryant. • The media’s obsession with sexual deviants and not the “normal” guys who commit most rapes. • Parenting, and the special challenges for parents of daughters and sons. • Alpha-male culture in sports, the military, on college campuses, in the workplace, etc....

The idea being that gender roles are really socially constructed. So, both men and women pay a price for that.

The book is more about exploring the social construction of roles in society and why it damages everyone.

In the book the way we never were, it covers more about how there is some myth perpetrated today about the good old days back when we had two parent homes and everything was so pleasant.

The book deconstructs the myths by pointing out that in the good old days people were much more exploited, children in factories, girls who got pregnant were sent away and shamed, racism was rampant, and housewives were on Valium to cope.

Rituals of Blood

Among the causes of death, suicide is often singled out as especially indicative of social anomie and despair, and there has been anguished recent commentary on the growing rate among young Afro-American men. However, suicide rates, as all sociologists know from one of the discipline's founding fathers, are complex and must be treated with great caution. In nearly all Western societies, more prosperous classes have tended to experience higher suicide rates than less prosperous ones. Because they have less to lose and make fewer demands on themselves, poorer people tend to experience catastrophic feelings of failure and despair less often.

Suicide , according to Durkheim: Egoistic suicide happens when people feel totally detached from society. Ordinarily, people are integrated into society by work roles, ties to family and community, and other social bonds. When these bonds are weakened through retirement or loss of family and friends, the likelihood of egoistic suicide increases. Elderly people who lose these ties are the most susceptible to egoistic suicide.

Could it be that as society becomes moire accepting of defining gender roles broadly, that some men feel lost and unable to assimilate to culture changes?

I really don't know, but it is a good question Disir.

 

[D Truth]

Ok, read a little bit.
Based on comments by the OP, seems the OP is taking the position that parenting, due to some really twisted "historical" doublespeak, should be left to "schools" (so that they can be taught to be happy communist/capitalists slaves). And that parents should just be happy slaves for the capitalists/communists too. Is that correct?
I admit, I could be wrong, there was a lot of nonsense to sort through.

Not entirely seeing how the article relates.

Oh, my apologies, back to the article.
Basically this Farrell guy is a pervert and an idiot. No two ways about it.
Propped up by dinosaur media morons, he started out some sort of a feminist, then was propped up by the same dino-media as a figurehead of male-rights? Logical fail, clearly a strawman argument.

Goodness, it was quite rude not to at least give the summary, that was an immense amount of drivel to parse through! Quite rude indeed!

 

[Disir]

Ok, read a little bit.
Based on comments by the OP, seems the OP is taking the position that parenting, due to some really twisted "historical" doublespeak, should be left to "schools" (so that they can be taught to be happy communist/capitalists slaves). And that parents should just be happy slaves for the capitalists/communists too. Is that correct?
I admit, I could be wrong, there was a lot of nonsense to sort through.

Not entirely seeing how the article relates.

Oh, my apologies, back to the article.
Basically this Farrell guy is a pervert and an idiot. No two ways about it.
Propped up by dinosaur media morons, he started out some sort of a feminist, then was propped up by the same dino-media as a figurehead of male-rights? Logical fail, clearly a strawman argument.

Goodness, it was quite rude not to at least give the summary, that was an immense amount of drivel to parse through! Quite rude indeed!

How very astute! Do go on....

 

[Disir]

--the boy crisis

--children's need for both parents (equally-shared parenting);

--why the pay gap is not about discrimination against women;

--the need for men's studies;

--a men's birth control pill's importance to both sexes;

--paternity fraud;

--male-only draft registration as a violation of the 14th Amendment;

--men as the disposable sex (in war, the "death professions", and as dads)

--the debate between society being controlled historically by patriarchy vs. by the need to survive;

--boys' and men's suicides--the reasons for the increase;

--the negative media images of men, and their negative impact on our daughters' ability to love men;

--how to listen to the other sex with love rather than argue with blame


____________________________________________________________________________



I'd really like to address the issues. Tell me what you think of the article and responses.

Again, I think a lot of these ideas mentioned are valid concerns. I am not sure why we don't discuss it more.

I don't either. I also think that one is being discussed but not promoted by the "right" people. The pay gap is one that many people understand and have been outspoken about but we (as a society) seem to have disjointed conversations. There is still the myth that women opt out which accounts for it and I think this is extremely harmful to both genders.

One that is not listed is education. There is a line of thinking that education has been feminized and little boys are expected to sit still for longer periods. That would be viable IF we pretend that testing is not an issue.

The suicides and the disposable men are something that I would like to get into. Is that in your book?

Macho Paradox is more about how media shapes gender roles and the damage it does to men
• Pornography, prostitution and stripping, and how they shape men’s attitudes toward women. • Pop culture, including discussions about Eminem, Howard Stern, and Kobe Bryant. • The media’s obsession with sexual deviants and not the “normal” guys who commit most rapes. • Parenting, and the special challenges for parents of daughters and sons. • Alpha-male culture in sports, the military, on college campuses, in the workplace, etc....

The idea being that gender roles are really socially constructed. So, both men and women pay a price for that.

The book is more about exploring the social construction of roles in society and why it damages everyone.

In the book the way we never were, it covers more about how there is some myth perpetrated today about the good old days back when we had two parent homes and everything was so pleasant.

The book deconstructs the myths by pointing out that in the good old days people were much more exploited, children in factories, girls who got pregnant were sent away and shamed, racism was rampant, and housewives were on Valium to cope.

Rituals of Blood

Among the causes of death, suicide is often singled out as especially indicative of social anomie and despair, and there has been anguished recent commentary on the growing rate among young Afro-American men. However, suicide rates, as all sociologists know from one of the discipline's founding fathers, are complex and must be treated with great caution. In nearly all Western societies, more prosperous classes have tended to experience higher suicide rates than less prosperous ones. Because they have less to lose and make fewer demands on themselves, poorer people tend to experience catastrophic feelings of failure and despair less often.

Suicide , according to Durkheim: Egoistic suicide happens when people feel totally detached from society. Ordinarily, people are integrated into society by work roles, ties to family and community, and other social bonds. When these bonds are weakened through retirement or loss of family and friends, the likelihood of egoistic suicide increases. Elderly people who lose these ties are the most susceptible to egoistic suicide.

Could it be that as society becomes moire accepting of defining gender roles broadly, that some men feel lost and unable to assimilate to culture changes?

I really don't know, but it is a good question Disir.

Coontz I know-she's a Prof, and a feminist. I use her frequently.

Durkheim I am familiar with. Historically, white, single, Protestant, middle males have committed suicide. While Durkheim is still relevant there has been a huge shift. When the question is posed, "What is a man?" the answer is different dependent on where you are on the socioeconomic ladder. It's a different method of expression.

Now, we have more men on the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder committing suicide. The working class jobs have been shipped overseas and even many factory jobs are held by newly arrived legal immigrants or illegal immigrants. I want to pull up stats before I say anything else.

 

[Michelle420]

--the boy crisis

--children's need for both parents (equally-shared parenting);

--why the pay gap is not about discrimination against women;

--the need for men's studies;

--a men's birth control pill's importance to both sexes;

--paternity fraud;

--male-only draft registration as a violation of the 14th Amendment;

--men as the disposable sex (in war, the "death professions", and as dads)

--the debate between society being controlled historically by patriarchy vs. by the need to survive;

--boys' and men's suicides--the reasons for the increase;

--the negative media images of men, and their negative impact on our daughters' ability to love men;

--how to listen to the other sex with love rather than argue with blame


____________________________________________________________________________



I'd really like to address the issues. Tell me what you think of the article and responses.

Again, I think a lot of these ideas mentioned are valid concerns. I am not sure why we don't discuss it more.

I don't either. I also think that one is being discussed but not promoted by the "right" people. The pay gap is one that many people understand and have been outspoken about but we (as a society) seem to have disjointed conversations. There is still the myth that women opt out which accounts for it and I think this is extremely harmful to both genders.

One that is not listed is education. There is a line of thinking that education has been feminized and little boys are expected to sit still for longer periods. That would be viable IF we pretend that testing is not an issue.

The suicides and the disposable men are something that I would like to get into. Is that in your book?

Macho Paradox is more about how media shapes gender roles and the damage it does to men
• Pornography, prostitution and stripping, and how they shape men’s attitudes toward women. • Pop culture, including discussions about Eminem, Howard Stern, and Kobe Bryant. • The media’s obsession with sexual deviants and not the “normal” guys who commit most rapes. • Parenting, and the special challenges for parents of daughters and sons. • Alpha-male culture in sports, the military, on college campuses, in the workplace, etc....

The idea being that gender roles are really socially constructed. So, both men and women pay a price for that.

The book is more about exploring the social construction of roles in society and why it damages everyone.

In the book the way we never were, it covers more about how there is some myth perpetrated today about the good old days back when we had two parent homes and everything was so pleasant.

The book deconstructs the myths by pointing out that in the good old days people were much more exploited, children in factories, girls who got pregnant were sent away and shamed, racism was rampant, and housewives were on Valium to cope.

Rituals of Blood

Among the causes of death, suicide is often singled out as especially indicative of social anomie and despair, and there has been anguished recent commentary on the growing rate among young Afro-American men. However, suicide rates, as all sociologists know from one of the discipline's founding fathers, are complex and must be treated with great caution. In nearly all Western societies, more prosperous classes have tended to experience higher suicide rates than less prosperous ones. Because they have less to lose and make fewer demands on themselves, poorer people tend to experience catastrophic feelings of failure and despair less often.

Suicide , according to Durkheim: Egoistic suicide happens when people feel totally detached from society. Ordinarily, people are integrated into society by work roles, ties to family and community, and other social bonds. When these bonds are weakened through retirement or loss of family and friends, the likelihood of egoistic suicide increases. Elderly people who lose these ties are the most susceptible to egoistic suicide.

Could it be that as society becomes moire accepting of defining gender roles broadly, that some men feel lost and unable to assimilate to culture changes?

I really don't know, but it is a good question Disir.

Coontz I know-she's a Prof, and a feminist. I use her frequently.

Durkheim I am familiar with. Historically, white, single, Protestant, middle males have committed suicide. While Durkheim is still relevant there has been a huge shift. When the question is posed, "What is a man?" the answer is different dependent on where you are on the socioeconomic ladder. It's a different method of expression.

Now, we have more men on the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder committing suicide. The working class jobs have been shipped overseas and even many factory jobs are held by newly arrived legal immigrants or illegal immigrants. I want to pull up stats before I say anything else.

"Among the causes of death, suicide is often singled out as especially indicative of social anomie and despair, and there has been anguished recent commentary on the growing rate among young Afro-American men. However, suicide rates, as all sociologists know from one of the discipline's founding fathers, are complex and must be treated with great caution. In nearly all Western societies, more prosperous classes have tended to experience higher suicide rates than less prosperous ones. Because they have less to lose and make fewer demands on themselves, poorer people tend to experience catastrophic feelings of failure and despair less often." <--- from the article rituals is from Patricia Hill Collins a black feminist.

She is one of my favorite writers.

 

[Michelle420]

I still

--the boy crisis

--children's need for both parents (equally-shared parenting);

--why the pay gap is not about discrimination against women;

--the need for men's studies;

--a men's birth control pill's importance to both sexes;

--paternity fraud;

--male-only draft registration as a violation of the 14th Amendment;

--men as the disposable sex (in war, the "death professions", and as dads)

--the debate between society being controlled historically by patriarchy vs. by the need to survive;

--boys' and men's suicides--the reasons for the increase;

--the negative media images of men, and their negative impact on our daughters' ability to love men;

--how to listen to the other sex with love rather than argue with blame


____________________________________________________________________________



I'd really like to address the issues. Tell me what you think of the article and responses.

Again, I think a lot of these ideas mentioned are valid concerns. I am not sure why we don't discuss it more.

I don't either. I also think that one is being discussed but not promoted by the "right" people. The pay gap is one that many people understand and have been outspoken about but we (as a society) seem to have disjointed conversations. There is still the myth that women opt out which accounts for it and I think this is extremely harmful to both genders.

One that is not listed is education. There is a line of thinking that education has been feminized and little boys are expected to sit still for longer periods. That would be viable IF we pretend that testing is not an issue.

The suicides and the disposable men are something that I would like to get into. Is that in your book?

Macho Paradox is more about how media shapes gender roles and the damage it does to men
• Pornography, prostitution and stripping, and how they shape men’s attitudes toward women. • Pop culture, including discussions about Eminem, Howard Stern, and Kobe Bryant. • The media’s obsession with sexual deviants and not the “normal” guys who commit most rapes. • Parenting, and the special challenges for parents of daughters and sons. • Alpha-male culture in sports, the military, on college campuses, in the workplace, etc....

The idea being that gender roles are really socially constructed. So, both men and women pay a price for that.

The book is more about exploring the social construction of roles in society and why it damages everyone.

In the book the way we never were, it covers more about how there is some myth perpetrated today about the good old days back when we had two parent homes and everything was so pleasant.

The book deconstructs the myths by pointing out that in the good old days people were much more exploited, children in factories, girls who got pregnant were sent away and shamed, racism was rampant, and housewives were on Valium to cope.

Rituals of Blood

Among the causes of death, suicide is often singled out as especially indicative of social anomie and despair, and there has been anguished recent commentary on the growing rate among young Afro-American men. However, suicide rates, as all sociologists know from one of the discipline's founding fathers, are complex and must be treated with great caution. In nearly all Western societies, more prosperous classes have tended to experience higher suicide rates than less prosperous ones. Because they have less to lose and make fewer demands on themselves, poorer people tend to experience catastrophic feelings of failure and despair less often.

Suicide , according to Durkheim: Egoistic suicide happens when people feel totally detached from society. Ordinarily, people are integrated into society by work roles, ties to family and community, and other social bonds. When these bonds are weakened through retirement or loss of family and friends, the likelihood of egoistic suicide increases. Elderly people who lose these ties are the most susceptible to egoistic suicide.

Could it be that as society becomes moire accepting of defining gender roles broadly, that some men feel lost and unable to assimilate to culture changes?

I really don't know, but it is a good question Disir.

Coontz I know-she's a Prof, and a feminist. I use her frequently.

Durkheim I am familiar with. Historically, white, single, Protestant, middle males have committed suicide. While Durkheim is still relevant there has been a huge shift. When the question is posed, "What is a man?" the answer is different dependent on where you are on the socioeconomic ladder. It's a different method of expression.

Now, we have more men on the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder committing suicide. The working class jobs have been shipped overseas and even many factory jobs are held by newly arrived legal immigrants or illegal immigrants. I want to pull up stats before I say anything else.

I give Durkheim validity because he put suicide in terms of a social issue rather that just a psychological one.

 

[Circe]

I don't see why anyone should be worried about suicide by others, assuming they aren't known to you. Suicides are worthless people with no natural vigor. They do a lot of harm to their survivors, and intend to, but it's just another anti-population movement. These days, every social movement has an anti-population bias, and suicide is another.

Like euthanasia and abortion --- if "progressives" are in favor of those, and they are, I can't see why they wouldn't also applaud suicide. Whatever cleans off the Earth of humans, you know? That's supposed to be good. Men who suicide are just being Fashionable.

 

[Disir]

--the boy crisis

--children's need for both parents (equally-shared parenting);

--why the pay gap is not about discrimination against women;

--the need for men's studies;

--a men's birth control pill's importance to both sexes;

--paternity fraud;

--male-only draft registration as a violation of the 14th Amendment;

--men as the disposable sex (in war, the "death professions", and as dads)

--the debate between society being controlled historically by patriarchy vs. by the need to survive;

--boys' and men's suicides--the reasons for the increase;

--the negative media images of men, and their negative impact on our daughters' ability to love men;

--how to listen to the other sex with love rather than argue with blame


____________________________________________________________________________



I'd really like to address the issues. Tell me what you think of the article and responses.

Again, I think a lot of these ideas mentioned are valid concerns. I am not sure why we don't discuss it more.

I don't either. I also think that one is being discussed but not promoted by the "right" people. The pay gap is one that many people understand and have been outspoken about but we (as a society) seem to have disjointed conversations. There is still the myth that women opt out which accounts for it and I think this is extremely harmful to both genders.

One that is not listed is education. There is a line of thinking that education has been feminized and little boys are expected to sit still for longer periods. That would be viable IF we pretend that testing is not an issue.

The suicides and the disposable men are something that I would like to get into. Is that in your book?

Macho Paradox is more about how media shapes gender roles and the damage it does to men
• Pornography, prostitution and stripping, and how they shape men’s attitudes toward women. • Pop culture, including discussions about Eminem, Howard Stern, and Kobe Bryant. • The media’s obsession with sexual deviants and not the “normal” guys who commit most rapes. • Parenting, and the special challenges for parents of daughters and sons. • Alpha-male culture in sports, the military, on college campuses, in the workplace, etc....

The idea being that gender roles are really socially constructed. So, both men and women pay a price for that.

The book is more about exploring the social construction of roles in society and why it damages everyone.

In the book the way we never were, it covers more about how there is some myth perpetrated today about the good old days back when we had two parent homes and everything was so pleasant.

The book deconstructs the myths by pointing out that in the good old days people were much more exploited, children in factories, girls who got pregnant were sent away and shamed, racism was rampant, and housewives were on Valium to cope.

Rituals of Blood

Among the causes of death, suicide is often singled out as especially indicative of social anomie and despair, and there has been anguished recent commentary on the growing rate among young Afro-American men. However, suicide rates, as all sociologists know from one of the discipline's founding fathers, are complex and must be treated with great caution. In nearly all Western societies, more prosperous classes have tended to experience higher suicide rates than less prosperous ones. Because they have less to lose and make fewer demands on themselves, poorer people tend to experience catastrophic feelings of failure and despair less often.

Suicide , according to Durkheim: Egoistic suicide happens when people feel totally detached from society. Ordinarily, people are integrated into society by work roles, ties to family and community, and other social bonds. When these bonds are weakened through retirement or loss of family and friends, the likelihood of egoistic suicide increases. Elderly people who lose these ties are the most susceptible to egoistic suicide.

Could it be that as society becomes moire accepting of defining gender roles broadly, that some men feel lost and unable to assimilate to culture changes?

I really don't know, but it is a good question Disir.

Coontz I know-she's a Prof, and a feminist. I use her frequently.

Durkheim I am familiar with. Historically, white, single, Protestant, middle males have committed suicide. While Durkheim is still relevant there has been a huge shift. When the question is posed, "What is a man?" the answer is different dependent on where you are on the socioeconomic ladder. It's a different method of expression.

Now, we have more men on the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder committing suicide. The working class jobs have been shipped overseas and even many factory jobs are held by newly arrived legal immigrants or illegal immigrants. I want to pull up stats before I say anything else.

"Among the causes of death, suicide is often singled out as especially indicative of social anomie and despair, and there has been anguished recent commentary on the growing rate among young Afro-American men. However, suicide rates, as all sociologists know from one of the discipline's founding fathers, are complex and must be treated with great caution. In nearly all Western societies, more prosperous classes have tended to experience higher suicide rates than less prosperous ones. Because they have less to lose and make fewer demands on themselves, poorer people tend to experience catastrophic feelings of failure and despair less often." <--- from the article rituals is from Patricia Hill Collins a black feminist.

She is one of my favorite writers.

i read that. I'm taking my time in getting back because I am reading through information. Some of it is conflicting.

I didn't mean to imply that Durkheim wasn't valid.

http://www.newsweek.com/2013/05/22/...-epidemic-and-what-we-can-do-help-237434.html

 

[Michelle420]

I don't see why anyone should be worried about suicide by others, assuming they aren't known to you. Suicides are worthless people with no natural vigor. They do a lot of harm to their survivors, and intend to, but it's just another anti-population movement. These days, every social movement has an anti-population bias, and suicide is another.

Like euthanasia and abortion --- if "progressives" are in favor of those, and they are, I can't see why they wouldn't also applaud suicide. Whatever cleans off the Earth of humans, you know? That's supposed to be good. Men who suicide are just being Fashionable.

My sister committed suicide June 10th 2013, I care alot about it, and my sister wasn't worthless. I care about everyone and I would hope moire people care about each other instead of having the attitude that people who may be suffering a breakdown are worthless.

 

[Circe]

My sister committed suicide June 10th 2013, I care alot about it, and my sister wasn't worthless. I care about everyone and I would hope moire people care about each other instead of having the attitude that people who may be suffering a breakdown are worthless.

I regret your important loss.

However, I don't respect suicides, except in some very unusual circumstances. I think it's a pretty terrible thing to do, in that it gravely harms relatives and friends --- and is often intended to. Perhaps that wasn't your case.

The thread discussion is not about your sister but is about males who commit suicide because, I suppose, they are said to be losing out to women in some sense. I don't respect that whole line of thinking. If the Masters of the Universe are whining and killing themselves because women have finally gotten ourselves a little justice after eons of maltreatment by males, I don't care. Except for the collateral damage, society is probably better off without these poor-quality types.

 

[Disir]

My sister committed suicide June 10th 2013, I care alot about it, and my sister wasn't worthless. I care about everyone and I would hope moire people care about each other instead of having the attitude that people who may be suffering a breakdown are worthless.

I regret your important loss.

However, I don't respect suicides, except in some very unusual circumstances. I think it's a pretty terrible thing to do, in that it gravely harms relatives and friends --- and is often intended to. Perhaps that wasn't your case.

The thread discussion is not about your sister but is about males who commit suicide because, I suppose, they are said to be losing out to women in some sense. I don't respect that whole line of thinking. If the Masters of the Universe are whining and killing themselves because women have finally gotten ourselves a little justice after eons of maltreatment by males, I don't care. Except for the collateral damage, society is probably better off without these poor-quality types.

No.

Do you have anything besides trolling?

 

[Michelle420]

I don't see why anyone should be worried about suicide by others, assuming they aren't known to you. Suicides are worthless people with no natural vigor.

That's a sweeping statement.


If you wished to address the topic about men and suicide , you would not have made personal commentary about all people being worthless.

In social terms suicide can also be viewed as a failure of it's society to address an underlying issue of a group of people that are unable to assimilate. There is much more to suicide then just an individual's psychological state.

You made statements that are not addressing men and suicide and I responded to what you said.

Again, I care about everyone in general and if men are experiencing a high incidence of suicide I am interested in ways it can be addressed.

Do you have any ideas on how this can be tackled ?

 

[Michelle420]

The silent epidemic of male suicide BC Medical Journal

Promising lines of research include identification of clinical indicators specifically predictive of male suicide and exploration of precipitating and predisposing factors that distinguish male suicide and account for the substantial gender disparity. Only by breaking the silence—building public awareness, refining explanatory frameworks, implementing preventive strategies, and undertaking research—will we overcome this epidemic.

few preventive efforts or policies specifically targeting male suicide have been developed or evaluated, which further contributes to its lack of visibility as a major public health problem. When gender is addressed it is often treated as a static demographic variable as opposed to a culturally mediated social construction that intersects with other diversity markers such as race, sexual orientation, and age in highly complex ways.