Lost Colony of Roanoke

[OldLady]

Roanoke

This is a good read on the subject. I found it quite interesting.

Of course it is well known that the Welsh were the first visitors to America in the shape of Prince Madoc.

The discovery of America - by the welsh prince Madog in the 12th century

Unlike later visitors the welsh assimilated with the locals in the spirit of mutual respect.

All of this was airbrushed from history by those bastard english imperialists.

Vikings beat them by at least 2 centuries.

Allegedly. There is no real evidence to back that up though.
The Welsh version is backed up by centuries of local knowledge. You cant argue with that.

Their is a TN version that says it was the Roman Empire. Centuries old. They even made a poem. Cant argue with that!

The Welsh, the Vikings, they were sailors and fishermen, and they no doubt knew about this continent long before the English got here. We've got Viking artifacts here in Maine that prove they were here, anyway. The Welsh I'm not so familiar with. Neither of these peoples planted a flag and colonized it, though, as their own. So I don't know if they're "losers" so much, except historians hate to change their stories. The better archaeology gets, the more we're learning.

 

[TNHarley]

Here we go
Dare Stones - Wikipedia
Sparkes also found evidence that someone had been attempting to sell a fake stone at Manteo, near Roanoke, shortly before the first stone was produced by Hammond.

Hammond had only a post-office box for an address and could not be traced by Sparkes or even by the Pinkerton Detective Agency, and Sparkes noted that Emory University washed their hands of the business when Hammond proposed charging people to see the stone. It was at this stage that Pearce took the stone himself to Brenau College, which his family ran. The finders of the subsequent stones (Mr. Eberhart, Mr. Turner, Mr. Bruce, and Mr. and Mrs. Jett) all had connections with one another, and the first two had been friends for many years—and one of them was a stonemason. Turner did not admit to any forgery when pressed by Sparkes, but said, “If those stones were crooked, Pearce knows who crooked 'em.”

The stones themselves gave Sparkes clues to their forgery. One was claimed to have been kept in a tool chest for fifteen years, yet it had suffered no damage, even though it started crumbling when handled by the museum. Pearce had apparently suppressed a report by a geologist colleague that one of the stones had an inscription “cut within the past few days or weeks”. The style of the lettering was non-Elizabethan, according to an eminent palaeographer consulted by Sparkes. Elizabethan spelling was notoriously inconsistent, yet these stones consistently used the same spellings over the supposed dozen years involved in their creation. Two words (primeval and reconnoitre) are not attested in the English language until fifty or a hundred years after these stones were supposed to have been inscribed.

The stones have few supporters of their authenticity today, though Robert W. White's 1991 book A Witness for Eleanor Dare argued that they were genuine.

 

[strollingbones]

common sense tells one that the dare stones are a hoax.....ask yourself why someone on the move and without food etc would take the time to do that....its carved into the stone not a small task

 

[OldLady]

This is what happened to the Roanoke colony. Eleanor and six others were still alive in 1591, the year after her father came back and found them gone. The stone was found upriver on the mainland, not on or near Croatan. Reports of these survivors continuing to live among the natives persisted at least until John Smith began hunting for them in 1607 or so.
That is why it is a mystery. Her husband and child's gravestone is out there somewhere, too, if anyone can figure out where "hither" is.

[Side 1]:

Ananias Dare &
Virginia Went Hence
Unto Heaven 1591
Anye Englishman Shew
John White Govr Via

Side 2]:

Father Soone After You
Goe for England Wee Cam
Hither / Onlie Misarie & Warre
Tow Yeere / Above Halfe Deade ere Tow
Yeere More From Sickenes Beine Foure & Twentie /
Salvage with Message of Shipp Unto Us / Smal
Space of Time they Affrite of Revenge Rann
Al Awaye / Wee Bleeve it Nott You / Soone After
Ye Salvages Faine Spirits Angrie / Suddaine
Murther Al Save Seaven / Mine Childe /
Ananais to Slaine wth Much Misarie /
Burie Al Neere Foure Myles Easte This River
Uppon Small Hil / Names Writ Al Ther
On Rocke / Putt This Ther Alsoe / Salvage
Shew This Unto You & Hither Wee
Promise You to Give Greate
Plentie Presents
EWD

I remember reading that those stones were found hundred of miles away form their colony. Crazy that someone would carry a 30 or 40lb stone that far..
Also, it was reported that someone was trying to sell a fake one before the first one was ever found.

The Dare Stone (the one above) was found in the 1930's and taken to a history professor who studied it and got really excited. Archaeologists were freaked out because the stone had been removed from where it was discovered, which really screws things up as far as they're concerned. But anyway, the professor made a mistake: he put a notice in the paper promising a reward if that gravestone was found. A hoaxster created and delivered about thirty more stones that he said he found as far south as Georgia. He got blown, and the original stone fell into disrepute with the hoaxes. But it has recently been re-evaluated with modern technology and no one can dismiss it as a fake, while the others clearly are. The History Channel also had analysis done of the rock itself and it matches rock found at the copper mines up river where a Native chief told Strache the survivors were "beating copper." So it all kind of fits.

 

[TNHarley]

Roanoke

This is a good read on the subject. I found it quite interesting.

Of course it is well known that the Welsh were the first visitors to America in the shape of Prince Madoc.

The discovery of America - by the welsh prince Madog in the 12th century

Unlike later visitors the welsh assimilated with the locals in the spirit of mutual respect.

All of this was airbrushed from history by those bastard english imperialists.

Vikings beat them by at least 2 centuries.

Allegedly. There is no real evidence to back that up though.
The Welsh version is backed up by centuries of local knowledge. You cant argue with that.

Their is a TN version that says it was the Roman Empire. Centuries old. They even made a poem. Cant argue with that!

The Welsh, the Vikings, they were sailors and fishermen, and they no doubt knew about this continent long before the English got here. We've got Viking artifacts here in Maine that prove they were here, anyway. The Welsh I'm not so familiar with. Neither of these peoples planted a flag and colonized it, though, as their own. So I don't know if they're "losers" so much, except historians hate to change their stories. The better archaeology gets, the more we're learning.

Indeed. My mind was blown when they found that stuff. Some Viking artifacts they have found are only speculated as being norse. But the coins in Maine are without a doubt. They even know the exact era they were made in.
The welsh story is nothing more than legend. They could have been here but there is nothing that certifies that except word of mouth and a two hundred year old poem based off of legend.

 

[OldLady]

common sense tells one that the dare stones are a hoax.....ask yourself why someone on the move and without food etc would take the time to do that....its carved into the stone not a small task

They weren't on the move. They were with a native tribe somewhere.

 

[strollingbones]

still think its a hoax....two words vineland map

 

[OldLady]

Roanoke

This is a good read on the subject. I found it quite interesting.

Of course it is well known that the Welsh were the first visitors to America in the shape of Prince Madoc.

The discovery of America - by the welsh prince Madog in the 12th century

Unlike later visitors the welsh assimilated with the locals in the spirit of mutual respect.

All of this was airbrushed from history by those bastard english imperialists.

Vikings beat them by at least 2 centuries.

Allegedly. There is no real evidence to back that up though.
The Welsh version is backed up by centuries of local knowledge. You cant argue with that.

Their is a TN version that says it was the Roman Empire. Centuries old. They even made a poem. Cant argue with that!

The Welsh, the Vikings, they were sailors and fishermen, and they no doubt knew about this continent long before the English got here. We've got Viking artifacts here in Maine that prove they were here, anyway. The Welsh I'm not so familiar with. Neither of these peoples planted a flag and colonized it, though, as their own. So I don't know if they're "losers" so much, except historians hate to change their stories. The better archaeology gets, the more we're learning.

Indeed. My mind was blown when they found that stuff. Some Viking artifacts they have found are only speculated as being norse. But the coins in Maine are without a doubt. They even know the exact era they were made in.
The welsh story is nothing more than legend. They could have been here but there is nothing that certifies that except word of mouth and a two hundred year old poem based off of legend.

TN, you shouldn't denigrate word of mouth quite so much. Of course, you can't base a legal claim on it, but that is how important knowledge was and still is sometimes handed down through the generations. Especially back then when hardly anyone read. I'm familiar with how screwed up "word of mouth" information can get, having dealt with plenty of it doing genealogy, but there's frequently truth in it. You can't "screw up" finding a continent though--it's there or it's not.

 

[TNHarley]

This is what happened to the Roanoke colony. Eleanor and six others were still alive in 1591, the year after her father came back and found them gone. The stone was found upriver on the mainland, not on or near Croatan. Reports of these survivors continuing to live among the natives persisted at least until John Smith began hunting for them in 1607 or so.
That is why it is a mystery. Her husband and child's gravestone is out there somewhere, too, if anyone can figure out where "hither" is.

[Side 1]:

Ananias Dare &
Virginia Went Hence
Unto Heaven 1591
Anye Englishman Shew
John White Govr Via

Side 2]:

Father Soone After You
Goe for England Wee Cam
Hither / Onlie Misarie & Warre
Tow Yeere / Above Halfe Deade ere Tow
Yeere More From Sickenes Beine Foure & Twentie /
Salvage with Message of Shipp Unto Us / Smal
Space of Time they Affrite of Revenge Rann
Al Awaye / Wee Bleeve it Nott You / Soone After
Ye Salvages Faine Spirits Angrie / Suddaine
Murther Al Save Seaven / Mine Childe /
Ananais to Slaine wth Much Misarie /
Burie Al Neere Foure Myles Easte This River
Uppon Small Hil / Names Writ Al Ther
On Rocke / Putt This Ther Alsoe / Salvage
Shew This Unto You & Hither Wee
Promise You to Give Greate
Plentie Presents
EWD

I remember reading that those stones were found hundred of miles away form their colony. Crazy that someone would carry a 30 or 40lb stone that far..
Also, it was reported that someone was trying to sell a fake one before the first one was ever found.

The Dare Stone (the one above) was found in the 1930's and taken to a history professor who studied it and got really excited. Archaeologists were freaked out because the stone had been removed from where it was discovered, which really screws things up as far as they're concerned. But anyway, the professor made a mistake: he put a notice in the paper promising a reward if that gravestone was found. A hoaxster created and delivered about thirty more stones that he said he found as far south as Georgia. He got blown, and the original stone fell into disrepute with the hoaxes. But it has recently been re-evaluated with modern technology and no one can dismiss it as a fake, while the others clearly are. The History Channel also had analysis done of the rock itself and it matches rock found at the copper mines up river where a Native chief told Strache the survivors were "beating copper." So it all kind of fits.

True but I still don't know. A tourist from the other side of the country walking around in the woods in the middle of nowhere? Not to mention there are plenty of hickory nuts in Cali.
Isn't the Chowan river basically a swamp? IDK I guess there could still be hills.
Why would someone be trying to sell a fake stone when the original hasn't even been found yet?
And why would she carry that stone with her? Indians came and slaughtered everyone but they had time to move their shit and break down their houses? How did her and a few people carry all that?

 

[TNHarley]

Vikings beat them by at least 2 centuries.

Allegedly. There is no real evidence to back that up though.
The Welsh version is backed up by centuries of local knowledge. You cant argue with that.

Their is a TN version that says it was the Roman Empire. Centuries old. They even made a poem. Cant argue with that!

The Welsh, the Vikings, they were sailors and fishermen, and they no doubt knew about this continent long before the English got here. We've got Viking artifacts here in Maine that prove they were here, anyway. The Welsh I'm not so familiar with. Neither of these peoples planted a flag and colonized it, though, as their own. So I don't know if they're "losers" so much, except historians hate to change their stories. The better archaeology gets, the more we're learning.

Indeed. My mind was blown when they found that stuff. Some Viking artifacts they have found are only speculated as being norse. But the coins in Maine are without a doubt. They even know the exact era they were made in.
The welsh story is nothing more than legend. They could have been here but there is nothing that certifies that except word of mouth and a two hundred year old poem based off of legend.

TN, you shouldn't denigrate word of mouth quite so much. Of course, you can't base a legal claim on it, but that is how important knowledge was and still is sometimes handed down through the generations. Especially back then when hardly anyone read. I'm familiar with how screwed up "word of mouth" information can get, having dealt with plenty of it doing genealogy, but there's frequently truth in it. You can't "screw up" finding a continent though--it's there or it's not.

There can be. But he is passing it off as fact and screaming neener neener.

 

[TNHarley]

still think its a hoax....two words vineland map

They had done pigment testing on the ink and some of the ink material was first made in the 20th century.

 

[OldLady]

still think its a hoax....two words vineland map

Don't believe, then. I like mysteries.

 

[TNHarley]

still think its a hoax....two words vineland map

Don't believe, then. I like mysteries.

well, if you believe the stone, then it aint much of a mystery lol

 

[rightwinger]

common sense tells one that the dare stones are a hoax.....ask yourself why someone on the move and without food etc would take the time to do that....its carved into the stone not a small task

I tend to be skeptical. You don't leave a stone unless you expect to die. If she was with the Indians, she would expect to someday see white settlers again. The placement and timing of the stones seem odd

 

[yiostheoy]

This is what happened to the Roanoke colony. Eleanor and six others were still alive in 1591, the year after her father came back and found them gone. The stone was found upriver on the mainland, not on or near Croatan. Reports of these survivors continuing to live among the natives persisted at least until John Smith began hunting for them in 1607 or so.
That is why it is a mystery. Her husband and child's gravestone is out there somewhere, too, if anyone can figure out where "hither" is.

[Side 1]:

Ananias Dare &
Virginia Went Hence
Unto Heaven 1591
Anye Englishman Shew
John White Govr Via

Side 2]:

Father Soone After You
Goe for England Wee Cam
Hither / Onlie Misarie & Warre
Tow Yeere / Above Halfe Deade ere Tow
Yeere More From Sickenes Beine Foure & Twentie /
Salvage with Message of Shipp Unto Us / Smal
Space of Time they Affrite of Revenge Rann
Al Awaye / Wee Bleeve it Nott You / Soone After
Ye Salvages Faine Spirits Angrie / Suddaine
Murther Al Save Seaven / Mine Childe /
Ananais to Slaine wth Much Misarie /
Burie Al Neere Foure Myles Easte This River
Uppon Small Hil / Names Writ Al Ther
On Rocke / Putt This Ther Alsoe / Salvage
Shew This Unto You & Hither Wee
Promise You to Give Greate
Plentie Presents
EWD

I remember reading that those stones were found hundred of miles away form their colony. Crazy that someone would carry a 30 or 40lb stone that far..
Also, it was reported that someone was trying to sell a fake one before the first one was ever found.

The Dare Stone (the one above) was found in the 1930's and taken to a history professor who studied it and got really excited. Archaeologists were freaked out because the stone had been removed from where it was discovered, which really screws things up as far as they're concerned. But anyway, the professor made a mistake: he put a notice in the paper promising a reward if that gravestone was found. A hoaxster created and delivered about thirty more stones that he said he found as far south as Georgia. He got blown, and the original stone fell into disrepute with the hoaxes. But it has recently been re-evaluated with modern technology and no one can dismiss it as a fake, while the others clearly are. The History Channel also had analysis done of the rock itself and it matches rock found at the copper mines up river where a Native chief told Strache the survivors were "beating copper." So it all kind of fits.

True but I still don't know. A tourist from the other side of the country walking around in the woods in the middle of nowhere? Not to mention there are plenty of hickory nuts in Cali.
Isn't the Chowan river basically a swamp? IDK I guess there could still be hills.
Why would someone be trying to sell a fake stone when the original hasn't even been found yet?
And why would she carry that stone with her? Indians came and slaughtered everyone but they had time to move their shit and break down their houses? How did her and a few people carry all that?

Injuns would not have killed women or girls.

Only men and boys.

 

[TNHarley]

This is what happened to the Roanoke colony. Eleanor and six others were still alive in 1591, the year after her father came back and found them gone. The stone was found upriver on the mainland, not on or near Croatan. Reports of these survivors continuing to live among the natives persisted at least until John Smith began hunting for them in 1607 or so.
That is why it is a mystery. Her husband and child's gravestone is out there somewhere, too, if anyone can figure out where "hither" is.

[Side 1]:

Ananias Dare &
Virginia Went Hence
Unto Heaven 1591
Anye Englishman Shew
John White Govr Via

Side 2]:

Father Soone After You
Goe for England Wee Cam
Hither / Onlie Misarie & Warre
Tow Yeere / Above Halfe Deade ere Tow
Yeere More From Sickenes Beine Foure & Twentie /
Salvage with Message of Shipp Unto Us / Smal
Space of Time they Affrite of Revenge Rann
Al Awaye / Wee Bleeve it Nott You / Soone After
Ye Salvages Faine Spirits Angrie / Suddaine
Murther Al Save Seaven / Mine Childe /
Ananais to Slaine wth Much Misarie /
Burie Al Neere Foure Myles Easte This River
Uppon Small Hil / Names Writ Al Ther
On Rocke / Putt This Ther Alsoe / Salvage
Shew This Unto You & Hither Wee
Promise You to Give Greate
Plentie Presents
EWD

I remember reading that those stones were found hundred of miles away form their colony. Crazy that someone would carry a 30 or 40lb stone that far..
Also, it was reported that someone was trying to sell a fake one before the first one was ever found.

The Dare Stone (the one above) was found in the 1930's and taken to a history professor who studied it and got really excited. Archaeologists were freaked out because the stone had been removed from where it was discovered, which really screws things up as far as they're concerned. But anyway, the professor made a mistake: he put a notice in the paper promising a reward if that gravestone was found. A hoaxster created and delivered about thirty more stones that he said he found as far south as Georgia. He got blown, and the original stone fell into disrepute with the hoaxes. But it has recently been re-evaluated with modern technology and no one can dismiss it as a fake, while the others clearly are. The History Channel also had analysis done of the rock itself and it matches rock found at the copper mines up river where a Native chief told Strache the survivors were "beating copper." So it all kind of fits.

True but I still don't know. A tourist from the other side of the country walking around in the woods in the middle of nowhere? Not to mention there are plenty of hickory nuts in Cali.
Isn't the Chowan river basically a swamp? IDK I guess there could still be hills.
Why would someone be trying to sell a fake stone when the original hasn't even been found yet?
And why would she carry that stone with her? Indians came and slaughtered everyone but they had time to move their shit and break down their houses? How did her and a few people carry all that?

Injuns would not have killed women or girls.

Only men and boys.

The comanches did. They killed babies and roasted women like pigs. They even traded their slaves for peace negotiations.

 

[OldLady]

This is what happened to the Roanoke colony. Eleanor and six others were still alive in 1591, the year after her father came back and found them gone. The stone was found upriver on the mainland, not on or near Croatan. Reports of these survivors continuing to live among the natives persisted at least until John Smith began hunting for them in 1607 or so.
That is why it is a mystery. Her husband and child's gravestone is out there somewhere, too, if anyone can figure out where "hither" is.

[Side 1]:

Ananias Dare &
Virginia Went Hence
Unto Heaven 1591
Anye Englishman Shew
John White Govr Via

Side 2]:

Father Soone After You
Goe for England Wee Cam
Hither / Onlie Misarie & Warre
Tow Yeere / Above Halfe Deade ere Tow
Yeere More From Sickenes Beine Foure & Twentie /
Salvage with Message of Shipp Unto Us / Smal
Space of Time they Affrite of Revenge Rann
Al Awaye / Wee Bleeve it Nott You / Soone After
Ye Salvages Faine Spirits Angrie / Suddaine
Murther Al Save Seaven / Mine Childe /
Ananais to Slaine wth Much Misarie /
Burie Al Neere Foure Myles Easte This River
Uppon Small Hil / Names Writ Al Ther
On Rocke / Putt This Ther Alsoe / Salvage
Shew This Unto You & Hither Wee
Promise You to Give Greate
Plentie Presents
EWD

I remember reading that those stones were found hundred of miles away form their colony. Crazy that someone would carry a 30 or 40lb stone that far..
Also, it was reported that someone was trying to sell a fake one before the first one was ever found.

The Dare Stone (the one above) was found in the 1930's and taken to a history professor who studied it and got really excited. Archaeologists were freaked out because the stone had been removed from where it was discovered, which really screws things up as far as they're concerned. But anyway, the professor made a mistake: he put a notice in the paper promising a reward if that gravestone was found. A hoaxster created and delivered about thirty more stones that he said he found as far south as Georgia. He got blown, and the original stone fell into disrepute with the hoaxes. But it has recently been re-evaluated with modern technology and no one can dismiss it as a fake, while the others clearly are. The History Channel also had analysis done of the rock itself and it matches rock found at the copper mines up river where a Native chief told Strache the survivors were "beating copper." So it all kind of fits.

True but I still don't know. A tourist from the other side of the country walking around in the woods in the middle of nowhere? Not to mention there are plenty of hickory nuts in Cali.
Isn't the Chowan river basically a swamp? IDK I guess there could still be hills.
Why would someone be trying to sell a fake stone when the original hasn't even been found yet?
And why would she carry that stone with her? Indians came and slaughtered everyone but they had time to move their shit and break down their houses? How did her and a few people carry all that?

The way I'm reading it, the Roanoke folks moved off the island shortly after White left in 1587. They had 2 years of misery and war (based on tree ring data, 1587 - 1589 was the worse three year drought in 800 years). That would have caused plenty of resource nabbing on both sides, plus disease. They were down to 24 people; then it seems when the English ships returned, the natives got nervous and killed as many of the survivors as they could--this part isn't real clear--revenge for what?--and then there were seven, who went with the natives and apparently she gave the stone to a native with the instructions to get it to the white men, but it didn't make it that far, apparently.
You could be right, the Dare Stone is a hoax. I'm just not convinced of that, yet. It would have to have been a really good hoax-ster, according to those who know how people talked and wrote back then. And the microscopic analysis shows it wasn't done with a drill or modern tools and the stone itself is blinding white quartz, so if it had been carved anytime recently, they wouldn't have needed flour to make out the letters. I'm going to read more on the hoax thing though.

 

[OldLady]

still think its a hoax....two words vineland map

Don't believe, then. I like mysteries.

well, if you believe the stone, then it aint much of a mystery lol

You still gotta prove it; that's the fun part, finding the proof.

 

[TNHarley]

Good gawd I love discussing history!

 

[OldLady]

Good gawd I love discussing history!

Me, too. I appreciate your taking the time to humor an old lady.