Lithium Pipe Dream?

[Leo123]

Apparently ecological lefties couldn't care less about ruining the environment as long as it's not in their backyards. Lithium mining has ruined local environments.

The rush to ‘go electric’ comes with a hidden cost: destructive lithium mining | Thea Riofrancos

As the world moves towards electric cars and renewable grids, demand for lithium is wreaking havoc in northern Chile, says academic Thea Riofrancos

www.theguardian.com

"In the mining installations, which occupy more than 78 sq km (30 sq miles) and are operated by multinationals SQM and Albemarle, brine is pumped to the surface and arrayed in evaporation ponds resulting in a lithium-rich concentrate; viewed from above, the pools are shades of chartreuse. The entire process uses enormous quantities of water in an already parched environment. As a result, freshwater is less accessible to the 18 indigenous Atacameño communities that live on the flat’s perimeter, and the habitats of species such as Andean flamingoes have been disrupted. This situation is exacerbated by climate breakdown-induced drought and the effects of extracting and processing copper, of which Chile is the world’s top producer. Compounding these environmental harms, the Chilean state has not always enforced indigenous people’s right to prior consent."

"natural resource sectors, which include extractive activities like mining, are responsible for 90% of biodiversity loss and more than half of carbon emissions. One report estimates that the mining sector produces 100bn tons of waste every year."

More info:

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction

As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right

www.wired.co.uk

The "Dirty" Secrets Behind The "Clean" Façade of Electric Vehicles

Is the EV industry hiding some very real "dirty" secrets behind its outward "green" credentials?

interestingengineering.com

Add to that the fact that most EVs are powered by electricity derived from fossil fuel plants. Also, regenerative braking systems in EVs can cause other particulate matter to be released. Disposal of lithium batteries is another problem as they have a potential to contaminate the environment.

Also, the extraction of lithium is done by drilling wells (salterns) and evaporating it to yield lithium rich brine. It takes 2 million liters of water to produce 1 ton of lithium. Lithium is also mined by drilling used to extract the ore.

Here is an interesting, fairly balanced article.

The "Dirty" Secrets Behind The "Clean" Façade of Electric Vehicles

Is the EV industry hiding some very real "dirty" secrets behind its outward "green" credentials?

interestingengineering.com

 

[JGalt]

Lithium's a good remedy for bi-polar disorder and depression too. No wonder the little hippie weasel leftards love it so damned much. It makes them forget how badly their "president" is fucking up

 

[Flash]

L-I battery technology is terrible technology.

They are heavy, have a short life, dangerous, take a long time to recharge and don't hold much of a charge.

Like the article says they are an ecological disaster to produce and dispose of.

The Chinese (the guys that made the Biden family filthy rich) have control of most of the rare earth deposits.

We may come up with a good battery technology (like solid state) one of these days but L-I ain't it.

These Environmental Wackos are idiots.

 

[excalibur]

Then there is the near slave labor in the Congo for cobalt.

 

[Leo123]

L-I battery technology is terrible technology.

They are heavy, have a short life, dangerous, take a long time to recharge and don't hold much of a charge.

Like the article says they are an ecological disaster to produce and dispose of.

The Chinese (the guys that made the Biden family filthy rich) have control of most of the rare earth deposits.

We may come up with a good battery technology (like solid state) one of these days but L-I ain't it.

These Environmental Wackos are idiots.

Another source of energy, Hydrogen fuel cell.

Elon Musk says the tech is 'mind-bogglingly stupid,' but hydrogen cars may yet threaten Tesla

Tesla and a growing list of competitors in the electric vehicle market dominate debate over the future of cars and recharging networks, but there's another kind of green transportation making inroads, based on the most abundant resource in the universe: hydrogen fuel cells.

www.cnbc.com

Musk calls it 'stupid' but he doesn't specifically say why.
From the link:
"Tesla co-founder and CEO Elon Musk has dismissed hydrogen fuel cells as “mind-bogglingly stupid,” and that is not the only negative thing he has had to say about the technology. He has called them “fool cells,” a “load of rubbish,” and told Tesla shareholders at an annual meeting years ago that “success is simply not possible.”

IMO, just maybe, we should not abandon any sources of energy just use each appropriately instead of trying to corner the market on one and disparage the others based on hyperbolic environmental hand-wringing rhetoric..

 

[Leo123]

Then there is the near slave labor in the Congo for cobalt.

Not to mention it's further depletion and use of copper which is a key element in most all of our technology today.

 

[Flash]

Another source of energy, Hydrogen fuel cell.

Elon Musk says the tech is 'mind-bogglingly stupid,' but hydrogen cars may yet threaten Tesla

Tesla and a growing list of competitors in the electric vehicle market dominate debate over the future of cars and recharging networks, but there's another kind of green transportation making inroads, based on the most abundant resource in the universe: hydrogen fuel cells.

www.cnbc.com

Musk calls it 'stupid' but he doesn't specifically say why.
From the link:
"Tesla co-founder and CEO Elon Musk has dismissed hydrogen fuel cells as “mind-bogglingly stupid,” and that is not the only negative thing he has had to say about the technology. He has called them “fool cells,” a “load of rubbish,” and told Tesla shareholders at an annual meeting years ago that “success is simply not possible.”

IMO, just maybe, we should not abandon any sources of energy just use each appropriately instead of trying to corner the market on one and disparage the others based on hyperbolic environmental hand-wringing rhetoric..

A couple of months ago I saw a video on the hydrogen fuel cell technology and Musk is correct. It is stupid.

Several major things wrong but the biggy is that it takes more energy to produce the fuel cells than the fuel cells put out.

 

[Leo123]

A couple of months ago I saw a video on the hydrogen fuel cell technology and Musk is correct. It is stupid.

Several major things wrong but the biggy is that it takes more energy to produce the fuel cells than the fuel cells put out.

There is developing fuel cell technology.......It could be the future
Unlike pure hydrogen fuel cells, the developed SOFC technology can run on a wide variety of liquid fuels, such as gasoline, diesel, or even bio-based diesel fuels, and doesn't require the use of expensive metals in their catalysts. Cars powered by gasoline SOFCs could use existing gas stations.

Researchers advance fuel cell technology

Researchers have made a key advance in solid oxide fuel cells (SOFCs) that could make the highly energy-efficient and low-polluting technology a more viable alternative to gasoline combustion engines for powering cars.

www.sciencedaily.com

Seems like a decent idea because, unlike Tesla, the fuel infrastructure already exists. I'm a bit suspect of a guy like Musk putting the kabash on new tech. I thought that is what he was all about but maybe he is deeply invested in what he as already developed. I mean, if a person could have an electric car and be able to fuel up at a gas station with bio-fuel, gasoline etc, that would put a huge dent in Musk's market.

 

[Old Rocks]

Apparently ecological lefties couldn't care less about ruining the environment as long as it's not in their backyards. Lithium mining has ruined local environments.

The rush to ‘go electric’ comes with a hidden cost: destructive lithium mining | Thea Riofrancos

As the world moves towards electric cars and renewable grids, demand for lithium is wreaking havoc in northern Chile, says academic Thea Riofrancos

www.theguardian.com

"In the mining installations, which occupy more than 78 sq km (30 sq miles) and are operated by multinationals SQM and Albemarle, brine is pumped to the surface and arrayed in evaporation ponds resulting in a lithium-rich concentrate; viewed from above, the pools are shades of chartreuse. The entire process uses enormous quantities of water in an already parched environment. As a result, freshwater is less accessible to the 18 indigenous Atacameño communities that live on the flat’s perimeter, and the habitats of species such as Andean flamingoes have been disrupted. This situation is exacerbated by climate breakdown-induced drought and the effects of extracting and processing copper, of which Chile is the world’s top producer. Compounding these environmental harms, the Chilean state has not always enforced indigenous people’s right to prior consent."

"natural resource sectors, which include extractive activities like mining, are responsible for 90% of biodiversity loss and more than half of carbon emissions. One report estimates that the mining sector produces 100bn tons of waste every year."

More info:

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction

As the world scrambles to replace fossil fuels with clean energy, the environmental impact of finding all the lithium required could become a major issue in its own right

www.wired.co.uk

The "Dirty" Secrets Behind The "Clean" Façade of Electric Vehicles

Is the EV industry hiding some very real "dirty" secrets behind its outward "green" credentials?

interestingengineering.com

Add to that the fact that most EVs are powered by electricity derived from fossil fuel plants. Also, regenerative braking systems in EVs can cause other particulate matter to be released. Disposal of lithium batteries is another problem as they have a potential to contaminate the environment.

Also, the extraction of lithium is done by drilling wells (salterns) and evaporating it to yield lithium rich brine. It takes 2 million liters of water to produce 1 ton of lithium. Lithium is also mined by drilling used to extract the ore.

Here is an interesting, fairly balanced article.

The "Dirty" Secrets Behind The "Clean" Façade of Electric Vehicles

Is the EV industry hiding some very real "dirty" secrets behind its outward "green" credentials?

interestingengineering.com

LOL Yes, that has to be addressed. However, so strange you are so worked up about this that is happening in a foreign land, and you don't give a fuck about what the mountaintop coal mining has done to watersheds and people in our own nation. You are a damnable hypocrite.

 

[Old Rocks]

L-I battery technology is terrible technology.

They are heavy, have a short life, dangerous, take a long time to recharge and don't hold much of a charge.

Like the article says they are an ecological disaster to produce and dispose of.

The Chinese (the guys that made the Biden family filthy rich) have control of most of the rare earth deposits.

We may come up with a good battery technology (like solid state) one of these days but L-I ain't it.

These Environmental Wackos are idiots.

Damn, any more lies to tell? LFP batteries hit 3000 cycles or more before degrading to only 80% of original capacity. There have been less fires in Tesla's than in an equal number of ICE vehicles. The range for most of the quality EV's is around 250 to 350 miles. At 3000 cycles that is 900,000 miles for one with a 300 mile range. And the charging time on a supercharger is 15 to 30 minutes for an 80% charge. As for your last comment, you are one stupid ass to post lies so easy to check on.

New Tests Prove: LFP Lithium Batteries Live Longer than NMC - OneCharge

Recent independent degradation tests of commercial lithium batteries prove - LFP chemistry is safer and has a longer life-span than NMC.

www.onecharge.biz

 

[Flash]

Damn, any more lies to tell? LFP batteries hit 3000 cycles or more before degrading to only 80% of original capacity. There have been less fires in Tesla's than in an equal number of ICE vehicles. The range for most of the quality EV's is around 250 to 350 miles. At 3000 cycles that is 900,000 miles for one with a 300 mile range. And the charging time on a supercharger is 15 to 30 minutes for an 80% charge. As for your last comment, you are one stupid ass to post lies so easy to check on.
View attachment 559134

New Tests Prove: LFP Lithium Batteries Live Longer than NMC - OneCharge

Recent independent degradation tests of commercial lithium batteries prove - LFP chemistry is safer and has a longer life-span than NMC.

www.onecharge.biz

You are confused about this. Typical for a Moon Bat.

Not all L-I batteries are the same. Different car manufacturers use different quality batteries. Not everybody can afford the top of the line Telsa batteries.

That stupid chart you posted is under laboratory conditions and don't affect real world conditions like load and temperature, which varies tremendously. More importantly it doesn't reflect charging loads.

A battery will last longer if it is kept charged. Like charging when it it doesn't get below 50%. If you let it go to 5%, which most owners will do from time to time greatly decreases charging efficiency and battery life. Doing proper charging may extend battery life but it greatly reduces the range of the vehicle.

L-I batteries are fine for powering an edge trimmer but are shitty as hell for vehicles and only stupid uneducated Environmental Wacko fools would buy a L-I vehicle.

Unless you are well off and can afford to only keep the vehicle for a couple or three and don't drive much then you will probably regret buying a L-I vehicle.

Of course that is fine. I like seeing stupid uneducated Moon Bats regret the decisions they make.

 

[mamooth]

L-I batteries are fine for powering an edge trimmer but are shitty as hell for vehicles and only stupid uneducated Environmental Wacko fools would buy a L-I vehicle.

What other cult stupidity did your fascist sore-loser cult order you to blubber out today? Don't hold back. We need the laughs.

Look at this thread. "Derp ... another country did it badly, so that means everyone must do it badly!". Standard denier retardation. Most of them literally aren't capable of understand why their reasoning is so stupid. After all, if they weren't morons, they wouldn't be deniers.

 

[Flash]

What other cult stupidity did your fascist sore-loser cult order you to blubber out today? Don't hold back. We need the laughs.

Look at this thread. "Derp ... another country did it badly, so that means everyone must do it badly!". Standard denier retardation. Most of them literally aren't capable of understand why their reasoning is so stupid. After all, if they weren't morons, they wouldn't be deniers.

The terrible technology of the L-I batteries speaks for itself.

Being an Engineer I don't have anything against battery technology if it works. L-I is shitty technology. Heavy, dangerous, Environmental disaster to make and dispose of, low capacity, expensive, short distance and relatively short life.

That doesn't even include the fact that the Chicoms are the ones that now control most of the L reserves.

If you want a good vehicle go buy a Honda CRV. Great mileage, fantastic trade in value and you can put over 200K miles on it if you service it properly. Trust me, the earth won't burn up if you buy one.

 

[Leo123]

LOL Yes, that has to be addressed. However, so strange you are so worked up about this that is happening in a foreign land, and you don't give a fuck about what the mountaintop coal mining has done to watersheds and people in our own nation. You are a damnable hypocrite.

Don't worry, once those countries start limiting lithium they'll be digging in your backyard for the stuff along with coal mining to keep up with the demand of charging all those electric cars our lefty politicians foisted on US.

 

[Old Rocks]

The terrible technology of the L-I batteries speaks for itself.

Being an Engineer I don't have anything against battery technology if it works. L-I is shitty technology. Heavy, dangerous, Environmental disaster to make and dispose of, low capacity, expensive, short distance and relatively short life.

That doesn't even include the fact that the Chicoms are the ones that now control most of the L reserves.

If you want a good vehicle go buy a Honda CRV. Great mileage, fantastic trade in value and you can put over 200K miles on it if you service it properly. Trust me, the earth won't burn up if you buy one.

More lies. An engineer, eh? What is the number of your train on which rail line? Because you make erroneous statements that no self respecting technical engineer would make. Expensive at present, but the price is going down rapidly. Heavy at present. As the energy density increases, that will become less a problem. There are already companies making money recycling the valuable metals in lithium batteries. Short distance? There are already EV's with over 400 miles range, and, by the end of this year, at least one with 500 mile range. And an LFP battery can give close to a million miles before it loses 20% capacity. About five times the lifetime of your Honda, and far cheaper to run. Far lower maintenance, far lower fuel costs, and better performance.

 

[Old Rocks]

Don't worry, once those countries start limiting lithium they'll be digging in your backyard for the stuff along with coal mining to keep up with the demand of charging all those electric cars our lefty politicians foisted on US.

In just one deposit on the Oregon-Nevada line, there is enough lithium to supply 25% of the world's demand for over 40 years. Ever hear of a little research before presenting yourself as a dumb ass?

Tesla has 17,000 acres of this deposit, and the geology of that deposit is not unique to that deposit. There are many areas in both Oregon and Nevada that are potential sources.

Lithium-Rich Claystone in the McDermitt Caldera, Nevada, USA: Geologic, Mineralogical, and Geochemical Characteristics and Possible Origin

Lithium deposits in tuffaceous sediments of the McDermitt caldera constitute possibly the world’s largest Li clay resource, yet their characteristics and origin are not established. The 40 × 25 km McDermitt caldera collapsed during the eruption of ~1000 km3 of a 16.4 Ma, zoned peralkaline to...

www.mdpi.com

 

[Flash]

More lies. An engineer, eh? What is the number of your train on which rail line? Because you make erroneous statements that no self respecting technical engineer would make. Expensive at present, but the price is going down rapidly. Heavy at present. As the energy density increases, that will become less a problem. There are already companies making money recycling the valuable metals in lithium batteries. Short distance? There are already EV's with over 400 miles range, and, by the end of this year, at least one with 500 mile range. And an LFP battery can give close to a million miles before it loses 20% capacity. About five times the lifetime of your Honda, and far cheaper to run. Far lower maintenance, far lower fuel costs, and better performance.

All you are doing is spouting the Environmental Wacko bullshit that has no technical basis.

The reason why you are confused is that you being a stupid uneducated Moon Bat that is obsessed with this silly ass AGW bullshit you accept this L-I EV crap as being the savior of the earth and it is not. Not by a long shot.

You stupid uneducated Moon Bat silly fantasay is that we will all drive to Walden Pond in our electric vehicle recharged by renewable solar power but that ain't gonna happen.

L-I batteries are fine for some applications. I use them in some of my firearms optics.

I bought an electric weed trimmer that was L-I battery operated. It works fine but I am on my third battery. L-I batteries really don't last very long.

I am sure that one of these days someone will invent a battery that can be used in vehicles that will somewhat efficiently store the electricity generated by fossil fuels. Lithium Ion technology ain't it.

Unless someone can afford the very expensive top of the line Tesla batteries that are in the 60+K vehicles they will be very disappointed.

I had a 1995 Jeep Cherokee Sport that I kept for 23 years. Was a great vehicle. Had 190K miles on it when I got rid of it. I doubt there are none of these stupid L-I battery cars that the idiots are buying now that will be around in ten years, no less 23.

 

[Blues Man]

LOL Yes, that has to be addressed. However, so strange you are so worked up about this that is happening in a foreign land, and you don't give a fuck about what the mountaintop coal mining has done to watersheds and people in our own nation. You are a damnable hypocrite.

Kind of like the people who say we have to save the planet but who don't give a shit about the toxic sludge left behind by their push for a battery powered economy.

Or who don't care about all the non recyclable resins and and other shit that make up their beloved windmills

 

[Old Rocks]

Another source of energy, Hydrogen fuel cell.

Elon Musk says the tech is 'mind-bogglingly stupid,' but hydrogen cars may yet threaten Tesla

Tesla and a growing list of competitors in the electric vehicle market dominate debate over the future of cars and recharging networks, but there's another kind of green transportation making inroads, based on the most abundant resource in the universe: hydrogen fuel cells.

www.cnbc.com

Musk calls it 'stupid' but he doesn't specifically say why.
From the link:
"Tesla co-founder and CEO Elon Musk has dismissed hydrogen fuel cells as “mind-bogglingly stupid,” and that is not the only negative thing he has had to say about the technology. He has called them “fool cells,” a “load of rubbish,” and told Tesla shareholders at an annual meeting years ago that “success is simply not possible.”

IMO, just maybe, we should not abandon any sources of energy just use each appropriately instead of trying to corner the market on one and disparage the others based on hyperbolic environmental hand-wringing rhetoric..

Really? Musk has not elucidated on why hydrogen is not a good answer for cars?

 

[Old Rocks]

All you are doing is spouting the Environmental Wacko bullshit that has no technical basis.

The reason why you are confused is that you being a stupid uneducated Moon Bat that is obsessed with this silly ass AGW bullshit you accept this L-I EV crap as being the savior of the earth and it is not. Not by a long shot.

You stupid uneducated Moon Bat silly fantasay is that we will all drive to Walden Pond in our electric vehicle recharged by renewable solar power but that ain't gonna happen.

L-I batteries are fine for some applications. I use them in some of my firearms optics.

I bought an electric weed trimmer that was L-I battery operated. It works fine but I am on my third battery. L-I batteries really don't last very long.

I am sure that one of these days someone will invent a battery that can be used in vehicles that will somewhat efficiently store the electricity generated by fossil fuels. Lithium Ion technology ain't it.

Unless someone can afford the very expensive top of the line Tesla batteries that are in the 60+K vehicles they will be very disappointed.

I had a 1995 Jeep Cherokee Sport that I kept for 23 years. Was a great vehicle. Had 190K miles on it when I got rid of it. I doubt there are none of these stupid L-I battery cars that the idiots are buying now that will be around in ten years, no less 23.

Post # 10 in this thread. Note that there are an abundance of LFP batteries that will go beyond 3000 cycles before degrading to 80% capacity. In a vehicle with 300 miles range, that translates to 900,000 miles. Makes that 190K look pretty puny. Many of the NMC batteries go over 2000 cycles. In a vehicle with 300 miles range, that is 600,000 miles. Sounds adequate.