CDZ Liberty

[Mac1958]

There is no Liberty Police

Even if there was, what metric, benchmark or standard would they use Mac?

The benchmark is provided and maintained by We The People at the ballot box.

As flawed as that is, it's the best we have.
.

 

[sparky]

ah geez, and i was so hopin' to dodge that one Mac......~S~

 

[Gdjjr]

Continuum: a continuous sequence in which adjacent elements are not perceptibly different from each other, although the extremes are quite distinct.

I beg to differ. Perception is in the eye of the holder. The Individual is in charge of his Liberty unless it is restricted by an "extreme" perception who then chooses to act in the extreme to the Individual Liberty because "we have to do something".

 

[sparky]

Nice guilt trip guys......

~S~

 

[sparky]

I mean, Orwell must be rollin' in his grave tonight...~S~

 

[Gdjjr]

The benchmark is provided and maintained by We The People at the ballot box.

Except that there is not a dimes worth of difference between R and D in DC-

 

[sparky]

All an illusion , jhmo....~S~

 

[sparky]

But i'll play anyways

I read the PA when it came out, and was fairly upset

Few in Congress changed their votes during the sunsetting of it

Now nobody can put a dent in it

To me, America turned the corner into a police state with the PA

A serious loss of 'liberty', at least by my metric

There is no recourse, nothing is going to turn it around, and if i make noise i'm branded lefty, liberal, etc etc

Is there a 90 odd yr old German citizen in the house? Maybe s/he'd understand....

~S~

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You call those who are concerned, "crazed proponents."

"Concerned". What a benign, euphemistic way to put it.

Wrong.

Those I call liberty's "crazed proponents" are those who either refuse to, or lack the capacity to, recognize that, as with most things, "liberty" lies along a continuum. It is not a simplistic, binary, all or nothing, either/or proposition. There can be more liberty, there can be less liberty. The question is where a civilization chooses to be.

And no one group gets to decide for the rest of where on that continuum we exist at any moment. Even if that group has been led to believe that it has some kind of vice-like grip on the concept.

I'm glad I could clarify for you.
.

Liberty does not lie on a continuum. It is an unalienable Right that requires the leaders to seek out solutions to pressing problems without infringing on the Rights of individuals.

For example, liberals would argue that Red Flag Laws are necessary due to the fact that crazy people get firearms. So, both sides spend BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, have endless debates, end up in courts, and at the end of the day accomplish nothing.

The solution is found in the jails where over half of jail inmates are mentally ill. Jails and prisons have become de facto insane asylums and we ignore mental illness. The only thing we do for mental illness is to put people on drugs and many times the side effects of those drugs are homicidal and suicidal tendencies. IF we used the money we waste writing endless police reports for interactions with police (Nicholas Cruz, the Parkland shooter, is reputed to have had at least 45 interactions with police, not including expulsions, suspensions and other disciplinary actions in school) we could invest in identifying and treating the mentally and especially those who (at an early age) demonstrate traits that indicate that individual is dangerous and a threat to themselves and / or society.

It is NOT necessary to infringe on the Liberties of the people.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater (actually written by Karl Hess)

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788

 

[Gdjjr]

The solution is found in the jails where over half of jail inmates are mentally ill. Jails and prisons have become de facto insane asylums and we ignore mental illness. The only thing we do for mental illness is to put people on drugs and many times the side effects of those drugs are homicidal and suicidal tendencies. IF we used the money we waste writing endless police reports for interactions with police (Nicholas Cruz, the Parkland shooter, is reputed to have had at least 45 interactions with police, not including expulsions, suspensions and other disciplinary actions in school) we could invest in identifying and treating the mentally and especially those who (at an early age) demonstrate traits that indicate that individual is dangerous and a threat to themselves and / or society.

I haven't seen the statistics on the 1/2 in prison being mentally ill- but, I would say that privately owned prisons have become simply for profit centers- that said, big pharma has been tasked with fixing mental illness- big pharma is for profit- there is a common denominator- profit.
I have nothing against profit until it's state mandated paid for by tax payers and lives of citizens- anything state mandated tramples on Liberty- it gives rise to "we had to do something"- politicians have worked themselves into a corner and there is no way out without admitting they're wrong and we know that ain't gonna happen.
The future, on many fronts, is not pretty- I console myself with knowing that young people adapt- not a lot of consolation in that, but, by passing on our knowledge we at least leave them with something worth fighting for- Liberty.

 

[Gdjjr]

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined." -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 5 1788

This is the kind of knowledge we need to pass on to anyone and everyone- sow seeds of Liberty, they will bear fruit- just as the seeds of tyranny were sown years ago we are harvesting the fruit from those seeds- the acceptance of official oppression is mind boggling and speaks to the education system for several generations back-

 

[Natural Citizen]

Jealousy is an important term to absorb and to place into context with the topic. The Founders used the term often.

Jefferson also expressed this in the Kentucky Resolutions, as adopted in 1798 by the Kentucky legislature.

". . . it would be a dangerous delusion were a confidence in the men of our choice to silence our fears for the safety of our rights: that confidence is everywhere the parent of despotism: free government is founded in jealousy and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited Constitutions to bind down those whom we are obliged to trust with power: that our Constitution has accordingly fixed the limits to which and no further our confidence may go; . . . In questions of power then let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."


Another example...

Because, it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of citizens, and one of [the] noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The freemen of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle.

James Madison ("Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments"-- Addressed to the General Assembly of Va., 1785)


Another example in Washington's Farewell Address...

''Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government.'' (Here Republican means that of a Republic)


There are many, many more examples of the use of the term.

 

[Flash]

But i'll play anyways

I read the PA when it came out, and was fairly upset

Few in Congress changed their votes during the sunsetting of it

Now nobody can put a dent in it

To me, America turned the corner into a police state with the PA

A serious loss of 'liberty', at least by my metric

There is no recourse, nothing is going to turn it around, and if i make noise i'm branded lefty, liberal, etc etc

Is there a 90 odd yr old German citizen in the house? Maybe s/he'd understand....

~S~

A lot of us Conservatives opposed the Patriot Act.

It was the PA that provided the mechanism for the filthy Democrats in the Obama Administration to spy on Trump.

We warned that things like that would happen.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The solution is found in the jails where over half of jail inmates are mentally ill. Jails and prisons have become de facto insane asylums and we ignore mental illness. The only thing we do for mental illness is to put people on drugs and many times the side effects of those drugs are homicidal and suicidal tendencies. IF we used the money we waste writing endless police reports for interactions with police (Nicholas Cruz, the Parkland shooter, is reputed to have had at least 45 interactions with police, not including expulsions, suspensions and other disciplinary actions in school) we could invest in identifying and treating the mentally and especially those who (at an early age) demonstrate traits that indicate that individual is dangerous and a threat to themselves and / or society.

I haven't seen the statistics on the 1/2 in prison being mentally ill- but, I would say that privately owned prisons have become simply for profit centers- that said, big pharma has been tasked with fixing mental illness- big pharma is for profit- there is a common denominator- profit.
I have nothing against profit until it's state mandated paid for by tax payers and lives of citizens- anything state mandated tramples on Liberty- it gives rise to "we had to do something"- politicians have worked themselves into a corner and there is no way out without admitting they're wrong and we know that ain't gonna happen.
The future, on many fronts, is not pretty- I console myself with knowing that young people adapt- not a lot of consolation in that, but, by passing on our knowledge we at least leave them with something worth fighting for- Liberty.

It might be worth you looking up the 60 Minutes episode that aired earlier tonight. Two Colorado sheriffs gave those numbers and are refusing to enforce Red Flag Laws.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

But i'll play anyways

I read the PA when it came out, and was fairly upset

Few in Congress changed their votes during the sunsetting of it

Now nobody can put a dent in it

To me, America turned the corner into a police state with the PA

A serious loss of 'liberty', at least by my metric

There is no recourse, nothing is going to turn it around, and if i make noise i'm branded lefty, liberal, etc etc

Is there a 90 odd yr old German citizen in the house? Maybe s/he'd understand....

~S~

A lot of us Conservatives opposed the Patriot Act.

It was the PA that provided the mechanism for the filthy Democrats in the Obama Administration to spy on Trump.

We warned that things like that would happen.

It was a Tea Party Republican that introduced both the so - called "Patriot Act" and the REAL ID Act.

Society is so far removed from considering the experience of those who preceded them that it is hard to extrapolate the truth. But, the fact is, the Democrats are beginning to sound more and more like Republicans from the 1970s and 1980s while the right is taking up more and more of the issues that were championed by the left.

Trump is actually a Democrat which explains why he was able to attack the Constitution on an almost daily basis and get away with it. I can't tell you what is really going on in the world of politics, but it isn't about Trump. While you're being distracted, our Liberties are being flushed down the toilet and if we don't get serious, they will be Gone With the Wind.

 

[Mac1958]

Liberty does not lie on a continuum.

Could you provide a couple of examples in which your liberty is damaged or threatened?
.

 

[danielpalos]

No. I prefer to win my arguments not just resort to fallacy, gossip, hearsay, and soothsay. There is a difference.

I don't see where you've done anything of the kind on this thread. But, then again, you never answered me. So, if YOU declare something to be a fallacy, gossip, hearsay or soothsay (sic) then that is like the Word of God and you win any "argument?"

If that's the case, I'm glad this isn't an argument board. This is a discussion board. Was that attitude and those repetitive posts responsible for that vacation the mods gave you recently?

You only have an ad hominem, which is a fallacy and useless for Truth (value) purposes.

You are welcome to re-phrase your question so it is more cogent.

What bumbling idiocy! A question is not an ad hominem or a fallacy. You're getting back to the same trolling that you got banned the last time. We can quit having any kind of discourse if you're going to hurl accusations instead of answering any questions.

Where is your more cogent argument or question?

I keep asking and you keep deflecting.

Keep asking what?

 

[sparky]

Jealousy is an important term to absorb and to place into context with the topic. The Founders used the term often.

Jefferson also expressed this in the Kentucky Resolutions, as adopted in 1798 by the Kentucky legislature.

". . . it would be a dangerous delusion were a confidence in the men of our choice to silence our fears for the safety of our rights: that confidence is everywhere the parent of despotism: free government is founded in jealousy and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited Constitutions to bind down those whom we are obliged to trust with power: that our Constitution has accordingly fixed the limits to which and no further our confidence may go; . . . In questions of power then let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."


Another example...

Because, it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of citizens, and one of [the] noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The freemen of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle.

James Madison ("Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments"-- Addressed to the General Assembly of Va., 1785)


Another example in Washington's Farewell Address...

''Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government.'' (Here Republican means that of a Republic)


There are many, many more examples of the use of the term.

I wonder what all the FF's would think of us today.....

~S~

 

[Flash]

But i'll play anyways

I read the PA when it came out, and was fairly upset

Few in Congress changed their votes during the sunsetting of it

Now nobody can put a dent in it

To me, America turned the corner into a police state with the PA

A serious loss of 'liberty', at least by my metric

There is no recourse, nothing is going to turn it around, and if i make noise i'm branded lefty, liberal, etc etc

Is there a 90 odd yr old German citizen in the house? Maybe s/he'd understand....

~S~

A lot of us Conservatives opposed the Patriot Act.

It was the PA that provided the mechanism for the filthy Democrats in the Obama Administration to spy on Trump.

We warned that things like that would happen.

It was a Tea Party Republican that introduced both the so - called "Patriot Act" and the REAL ID Act.

Society is so far removed from considering the experience of those who preceded them that it is hard to extrapolate the truth. But, the fact is, the Democrats are beginning to sound more and more like Republicans from the 1970s and 1980s while the right is taking up more and more of the issues that were championed by the left.

Trump is actually a Democrat which explains why he was able to attack the Constitution on an almost daily basis and get away with it. I can't tell you what is really going on in the world of politics, but it isn't about Trump. While you're being distracted, our Liberties are being flushed down the toilet and if we don't get serious, they will be Gone With the Wind.

I am a real Conservative that believes in individual freedom and non interventionism. I never supported the Patriot Act or the invasion of Iraq.

I can't speak for other people that call themselves Conservatives but support Liberal ideas.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Liberty does not lie on a continuum.

Could you provide a couple of examples in which your liberty is damaged or threatened?
.

1) The government tells an employer who they can and cannot hire. Since the employer starts a business to make money, not to provide the public with a job, he / she owns the job they create and should be able to give it to whomever they want. The Right to own private property is a hallmark of our Republic.

2) The government requires a background check to buy a weapon and / or they ban certain kinds or types of weapons for the public. The Right to self defense is one of the first and most important principles of our Republic; the Right of the whole people cannot be infringed and that Right is preexisted before the Constitution was written or the government formed

3) Taxing a man's labor is immoral, unconstitutional, illegal, unnecessary, unconscionable, and indefensible. The 16th Amendment is a plank out of the Communist Manifesto

I could keep going, but those are the basic ones. Those I list because they have been litigated and when the courts could not side with Liberty, they chose to create new law (as they call it) and legislated from the bench when that is NOT within their constitutional authority.

In EVERY instance listed, there is much better and constitutional way of achieving whatever result that our law was changed to accomplish.