Libertarians Are The True Political Moderates

[The Rabbi]

Really?

So why did 09/11 occur?


.

I suppose you will now tell us it's our fault and that our butting into the world caused all of it............

Speaking for myself, not Contumacious, I would not say that. Al Qaeda are terrorists, I supported blowing the crap out of them. I do not support trying to nation build there or in Iraq, but I believe in paying them back many times over for any attack on us.

However, while I do not blame us. Say you're staying in a hotel on a business trip. Everyone tells you not to walk back to the hotel, you would walk through a dangerous neighborhood. You are determined, you go. You get robbed.

Was it your "fault?" No, it was the fault of the guy who robbed you. It was a crime, they are the criminal, you are the victim. But seriously, you should have taken a cab...

The analogy is false. It is more like:
I own a house. I've put an American flag on the house and I mow the lawn every Sunday, like all my neighbors do. The criminal down the street firebombs my house but claims it's because I mow my lawn, not because I have an American flag. Am I responsible because I've put up an American flag?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Was Afghanistan an offensive war?

Without question, they didn't attack us, bin Laden did. And he got what he wanted out of it, the US in a worldwide war with Islam.

 

[1776]

As a middle of the road conservative white male voter and military Vet, let me explain to the losertarians why you get your ass beaten in GOP primaries against "real" conservatives.

Your support for gay marriage is going nowhere in the GOP, many of us can swallow civil unions but stop with the gay marriage bullshit.
Your legalize every drug campaign is a non-starter.
Your dislike of the US military and the wars overseas puts you in the liberal crowd for the GOP.
Your paranoia of anything the GOV does makes you an outcast e.g. paying taxes, the police, the NSA, the military, etc.
Your hatred of Christians and the Jews is the deal breaker.

Most conservatives just want to be safe in their lives and be left alone, but your isolationist views makes us view you as crazy. Then you go off on "Bible thumpers, this and that" then you wonder why you lose to even RINOs in most elections.

 

[kaz]

Are you claiming that "real" libertarians do not support ending the fed or withdrawing US power from the world? If so I'd like to hear about it.

Please don't quote "real" libertarians since I never used that term. Quoting it means that it was my word, it wasn't, it was yours. I said small government libertarians, not no government libertarians. I don't consider one real and one not real, I was just being specific which group I was referring to.

No, I don't support withdrawing US power from the world. I support getting out of business that isn't ours. I support going after terrorists or anyone else like Al Qaeda where it is in our interest.

I believe it's the word "power" you chose that is confusing to the discussion. I would reduce the military, but I would in no way weaken our ability to protect ourselves. I would just get out of all the policing and offensive wars, which would save a lot of money and stop undermining our interests.

Was Afghanistan an offensive war?

I absolutely advocate blasting the crap out of both Al Qaeda and the Taliban, so the war was not "offensive." They attacked us. I hold the Taliban to completely the same level of responsibility for it as Al Qaeda. I would have thought we would have learned from the Russian failure and the English (4 times) that nation building in tribal Afghanistan is a hopeless cause. Apparently we didn't and have had to learn that for ourselves.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We have been through this with those who believe the myth Libertarians Are The True Political Moderates.

The principles followers can't even define who you are and in what you believe.

Socially liberal and economically conservative recognizing is centralism, which recognizes a role for government in regulating business..

 

[Jack203]

An economic policy of drastically cutting taxes on the super rich and drastically cutting spending that assist the poor and lower middle class is NOT moderate. The economic concepts libertarians spout are just as extreme as pure communism, except coming from the opposite spectrum. The words "moderate" and "libertarian" do not go together.

To begin with trickle down supply side economics is utter and complete horse shit.

A guy making ten million dollars a year is not going to work "harder" if his tax rate is a few percentage points lower. It is only applicable in the extreme. Cleaning the super rich yachts, sports cars and toilets are not quality jobs for the lower middle class.

On the bright side, I am in agreement with libertarians on foreign and social policy.

 

[kaz]

As a middle of the road conservative white male voter and military Vet, let me explain to the losertarians why you get your ass beaten in GOP primaries against "real" conservatives.

Your support for gay marriage is going nowhere in the GOP, many of us can swallow civil unions but stop with the gay marriage bullshit.
Your legalize every drug campaign is a non-starter.
Your dislike of the US military and the wars overseas puts you in the liberal crowd for the GOP.
Your paranoia of anything the GOV does makes you an outcast e.g. paying taxes, the police, the NSA, the military, etc.
Your hatred of Christians and the Jews is the deal breaker.

Most conservatives just want to be safe in their lives and be left alone, but your isolationist views makes us view you as crazy. Then you go off on "Bible thumpers, this and that" then you wonder why you lose to even RINOs in most elections.

Who are you talking to? The voices in your head? The only thing I support in your list is legalizing drugs. You should educate yourself on the reality of the war on drugs and the damage it does to our country and the world in return for nothing because it doesn't work.

The rest of it is ridiculous and if you are referring to me I not only don't support those things, I oppose them.

 

[kaz]

An economic policy of drastically cutting taxes on the super rich and drastically cutting spending that assist the poor and lower middle class is NOT moderate. The economic concepts libertarians spout are just as extreme as pure communism, except coming from the opposite spectrum. The words "moderate" and "libertarian" do not go together.

To begin with trickle down supply side economics is utter and complete horse shit.

A guy making ten million dollars a year is not going to work "harder" if his tax rate is a few percentage points lower. It is only applicable in the extreme. Cleaning the super rich yachts, sports cars and toilets are not quality jobs for the lower middle class.

On the bright side, I am in agreement with libertarians on foreign and social policy.

Flat taxes are moderate though. The more you earn, the more you pay. And no social engineering and redistribution through the tax code. Your position is uber extreme.

 

[kaz]

Was Afghanistan an offensive war?

Without question, they didn't attack us, bin Laden did. And he got what he wanted out of it, the US in a worldwide war with Islam.

It wasn't Japan that attacked us, it was the planes that dropped the bombs!

 

[eagle1462010]

Really?

So why did 09/11 occur?


.

I suppose you will now tell us it's our fault and that our butting into the world caused all of it............

Speaking for myself, not Contumacious, I would not say that. Al Qaeda are terrorists, I supported blowing the crap out of them. I do not support trying to nation build there or in Iraq, but I believe in paying them back many times over for any attack on us.

However, while I do not blame us. Say you're staying in a hotel on a business trip. Everyone tells you not to walk back to the hotel, you would walk through a dangerous neighborhood. You are determined, you go. You get robbed.

Was it your "fault?" No, it was the fault of the guy who robbed you. It was a crime, they are the criminal, you are the victim. But seriously, you should have taken a cab...

To the first point. I argued with my brother over the same issue. I told him they are not like us and that if we go in there instead of bombing them into submission that we would get stuck there. What I said came true.

We are fighting an Ideology, and they will simply not accept our ideologies or even Democracy as we believe in it. Religion rules there, and it was Naive to think we could change them.

After 9/11 I would have blown a lot of that region to hell and left before the dust settled.

The 2nd point is apples to oranges to me. As this area has oil that the world needs, and you must get into the territory due to economic interests around the globe. I don't see how we could take a cab to avoid conflict in the region as the world basically is protecting resources they need to buy to say afloat.

 

[1776]

Uh asswipe. I am addressing many losertarian scum here.

The ones that go on and on about "the evil USA" causing problems around the world.

The NSA looking up their ass in the toilet.

Etc.

As a middle of the road conservative white male voter and military Vet, let me explain to the losertarians why you get your ass beaten in GOP primaries against "real" conservatives.

Your support for gay marriage is going nowhere in the GOP, many of us can swallow civil unions but stop with the gay marriage bullshit.
Your legalize every drug campaign is a non-starter.
Your dislike of the US military and the wars overseas puts you in the liberal crowd for the GOP.
Your paranoia of anything the GOV does makes you an outcast e.g. paying taxes, the police, the NSA, the military, etc.
Your hatred of Christians and the Jews is the deal breaker.

Most conservatives just want to be safe in their lives and be left alone, but your isolationist views makes us view you as crazy. Then you go off on "Bible thumpers, this and that" then you wonder why you lose to even RINOs in most elections.

Who are you talking to? The voices in your head? The only thing I support in your list is legalizing drugs. You should educate yourself on the reality of the war on drugs and the damage it does to our country and the world in return for nothing because it doesn't work.

The rest of it is ridiculous and if you are referring to me I not only don't support those things, I oppose them.

 

[kaz]

I suppose you will now tell us it's our fault and that our butting into the world caused all of it............

Speaking for myself, not Contumacious, I would not say that. Al Qaeda are terrorists, I supported blowing the crap out of them. I do not support trying to nation build there or in Iraq, but I believe in paying them back many times over for any attack on us.

However, while I do not blame us. Say you're staying in a hotel on a business trip. Everyone tells you not to walk back to the hotel, you would walk through a dangerous neighborhood. You are determined, you go. You get robbed.

Was it your "fault?" No, it was the fault of the guy who robbed you. It was a crime, they are the criminal, you are the victim. But seriously, you should have taken a cab...

To the first point. I argued with my brother over the same issue. I told him they are not like us and that if we go in there instead of bombing them into submission that we would get stuck there. What I said came true.

We are fighting an Ideology, and they will simply not accept our ideologies or even Democracy as we believe in it. Religion rules there, and it was Naive to think we could change them.

After 9/11 I would have blown a lot of that region to hell and left before the dust settled.

The 2nd point is apples to oranges to me. As this area has oil that the world needs, and you must get into the territory due to economic interests around the globe. I don't see how we could take a cab to avoid conflict in the region as the world basically is protecting resources they need to buy to say afloat.

We need to focus on domestic energy evaporation. I don't care what the "world" needs, I only care what we do, and the only reason we need it is that the left have been allowed to throttle us. Fracking is changing that.

 

[eagle1462010]

Really?

So why did 09/11 occur?


.

I suppose you will now tell us it's our fault and that our butting into the world caused all of it............

Is it a fact that the UK allowed a massive invasion of zionists into Palestine in the mid 1920's without any authority form the allies?

Isn't it a fact that shortly therafter Menachem Begin and the Stern gang began terrorizing Palestinian Farmers?

Isn't is a fact that Harry Truman accepted a 2 million dollar political donation from David Ben Gurion and shortly thereafter was the ONLY nation to recognize the Jewish Enclave s a nation?

Isn't it a fact that the US has given Israel over 100 BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBillion dollars since 1949?

Isn't it a fact that the US has subsidized DEADLY Israeli imilitary incursions into Southern Lebanon?

.

60% of Israel was desert when it was created.

Nearly a million jews were driven from their homes in other areas of the middle east when Israel became a nation. No one talks about the abuses and atrocities of these people.

The Grand Mufti joined Hitler and helped slaughter jews in the Balkans..........

Most of the Palestinian Mandate is present day Jordan.

Billions were offered to create a Nation of Palestine but they chose War instead of Peace.

That is another issue altogether BTW.

 

[kaz]

Uh asswipe. I am addressing many losertarian scum here.

The ones that go on and on about "the evil USA" causing problems around the world.

The NSA looking up their ass in the toilet.

Etc.

As a middle of the road conservative white male voter and military Vet, let me explain to the losertarians why you get your ass beaten in GOP primaries against "real" conservatives.

Your support for gay marriage is going nowhere in the GOP, many of us can swallow civil unions but stop with the gay marriage bullshit.
Your legalize every drug campaign is a non-starter.
Your dislike of the US military and the wars overseas puts you in the liberal crowd for the GOP.
Your paranoia of anything the GOV does makes you an outcast e.g. paying taxes, the police, the NSA, the military, etc.
Your hatred of Christians and the Jews is the deal breaker.

Most conservatives just want to be safe in their lives and be left alone, but your isolationist views makes us view you as crazy. Then you go off on "Bible thumpers, this and that" then you wonder why you lose to even RINOs in most elections.

Who are you talking to? The voices in your head? The only thing I support in your list is legalizing drugs. You should educate yourself on the reality of the war on drugs and the damage it does to our country and the world in return for nothing because it doesn't work.

The rest of it is ridiculous and if you are referring to me I not only don't support those things, I oppose them.

You don't even like us for positions you agree with us on, like cutting taxes. LOL.

 

[1776]

Dumbass....people no matter if they are rich or poor will make a choice on doing something based on the rewards and costs.

If it is not worth working extra or investing their money because the tax rate is going to steal most of the profit, then they will sit on their money.

A flat tax rate is fair for everyone. It is not fair for someone making $100,000 to pay a higher tax rate than someone making $40,000 because one went to college and other didn't. The cost of living isn't different for them, I didn't realize the water bill, phone bill, etc was different for the rich person.

Oh, you don't like the fact they have more disposable money and thus the GOV should steal it to give to the poor person making less or not even working at all.

An economic policy of drastically cutting taxes on the super rich and drastically cutting spending that assist the poor and lower middle class is NOT moderate. The economic concepts libertarians spout are just as extreme as pure communism, except coming from the opposite spectrum. The words "moderate" and "libertarian" do not go together.

To begin with trickle down supply side economics is utter and complete horse shit.

A guy making ten million dollars a year is not going to work "harder" if his tax rate is a few percentage points lower. It is only applicable in the extreme. Cleaning the super rich yachts, sports cars and toilets are not quality jobs for the lower middle class.

On the bright side, I am in agreement with libertarians on foreign and social policy.

 

[Pheonixops]

Libertarians want government limited to those functions which only government can do. Most of us would generally agree with police, military, civil and criminal courts, roads, management of limited resources and recognition of property rights. I am not referring to anarchists who want no government here who like calling themselves libertarians, I am referring to the masses of us who want government limited, not eliminated.

Fiscal polices. We want taxes, but we want them low, flat and for the good of the people as a whole and not used for income redistribution. The left are the extremists here not only punishing success and harming employers, but even using tax COLLECTION as a welfare program with refundable tax credits. We are moderates, taxes should be reasonable and to fund the government, not implement social policy. And spending should be within our means.

Social policies. Socons go to church (or other religious institutions) then go to government to implement morality by force. Clearly they are the extremists. Libertarians believe they should have the right to persuade people to live moral lives, they should not have the right to force their morality on them. We are, the moderates.

NeoCons. We want the military used for the defense of the United States. We don't want to be policeman to the world like the right, we also don't blame our troops for the failures of our politicians like the left. And we don't want them in everyone's back yard, like both sides do. We are moderates, protect and defend, don't use force to make other's decisions just like we don't want government making our decisions here.

Republicans and Democrats are just so deep into the question of what government can do to impose their social and fiscal wills on us, they have stopped even asking the question, should government even do that? Do we have the right to make that choice for everyone and use force to impose it on all our citizens? Libertarians are the moderates, that is the first question we ask, that is the right question to answer before proceeding any further.

Nice post, one thing I would add is how Libertarians feel about Civil Liberties and the Bill of Rights. BOTH of the "big two" parties signed onto various acts that infringe upon the aforementioned.

 

[KNB]

A flat tax rate hurts poor people a lot more than it does rich people. That's why rich people dupe poor people into wanting a flat tax.

Record corporate profits = richer job creators = more jobs. Why is unemployment still high?

 

[1776]

I view losertarians as scum liberals that don't like the GOV because of paranoia.

When it gets down to it, most losertarians hate Christians and Jews or all forms of religion, thus form their opinions about the world through that spectrum.

They claim the US military is a weapon for "Christians and Jews." They oppose any laws based on morality like abortion, gay marriage, drugs, etc. They are just liberals that don't want "the man" in their lives.

Uh asswipe. I am addressing many losertarian scum here.

The ones that go on and on about "the evil USA" causing problems around the world.

The NSA looking up their ass in the toilet.

Etc.

Who are you talking to? The voices in your head? The only thing I support in your list is legalizing drugs. You should educate yourself on the reality of the war on drugs and the damage it does to our country and the world in return for nothing because it doesn't work.

The rest of it is ridiculous and if you are referring to me I not only don't support those things, I oppose them.

You don't even like us for positions you agree with us on, like cutting taxes. LOL.

 

[Contumacious]

Shitbag....I oppose big GOV and high taxes.

I support a strong national defense and foreign policy to prevent fuck-ups like WW1 and 2 where a weak military and foreign policy allows evil to fester and grow into a bigger mess.

OK Dingle Berry , how are you going to pay for strong national defense and foreign policy?

WW1 and WWII were caused by Woodrow Wilson and FDR INTERVENTIONISM. So the only way to prevent those fuck ups is by staying home and avoiding foreign entanglements.

.

 

[kaz]

Libertarians want government limited to those functions which only government can do. Most of us would generally agree with police, military, civil and criminal courts, roads, management of limited resources and recognition of property rights. I am not referring to anarchists who want no government here who like calling themselves libertarians, I am referring to the masses of us who want government limited, not eliminated.

Fiscal polices. We want taxes, but we want them low, flat and for the good of the people as a whole and not used for income redistribution. The left are the extremists here not only punishing success and harming employers, but even using tax COLLECTION as a welfare program with refundable tax credits. We are moderates, taxes should be reasonable and to fund the government, not implement social policy. And spending should be within our means.

Social policies. Socons go to church (or other religious institutions) then go to government to implement morality by force. Clearly they are the extremists. Libertarians believe they should have the right to persuade people to live moral lives, they should not have the right to force their morality on them. We are, the moderates.

NeoCons. We want the military used for the defense of the United States. We don't want to be policeman to the world like the right, we also don't blame our troops for the failures of our politicians like the left. And we don't want them in everyone's back yard, like both sides do. We are moderates, protect and defend, don't use force to make other's decisions just like we don't want government making our decisions here.

Republicans and Democrats are just so deep into the question of what government can do to impose their social and fiscal wills on us, they have stopped even asking the question, should government even do that? Do we have the right to make that choice for everyone and use force to impose it on all our citizens? Libertarians are the moderates, that is the first question we ask, that is the right question to answer before proceeding any further.

Nice post, one thing I would add is how Libertarians feel about Civil Liberties and the Bill of Rights. BOTH of the "big two" parties signed onto various acts that infringe upon the aforementioned.

Yes, both parties consider the Constitution a hammer when they agree with it and toilet paper when they don't.