Let's Talk.........I mean REALLY Talk.......

[Divine Wind]

umm...you are the only one talking about free college here, his point was completely something else.

He was talking about student loans which, if you'd read the aforementioned article, come with the same problems.

Like the housing crisis, "low-interest loans" are a double-edged sword. I understand the intent, but it's the results that concern me. I'm truly sorry you fail to understand this point.

 

[AntonToo]

umm...you are the only one talking about free college here, his point was completely something else.

He was talking about student loans which, if you'd read the aforementioned article, come with the same problems.

Like the housing crisis, "low-interest loans" are a double-edged sword. I understand the intent, but it's the results that concern me. I'm truly sorry you fail to understand this point.

No, he was talking about increased student loans being a result of recession rather than cause of it.

 

[Divine Wind]

No, he was talking about increased student loans being a result of recession rather than cause of it.

Prices go up over time. That's natural.

In the 1970s, I worked my way through college. Lived at home the first two years going to community college full-time and working part-time (going full-time holidays, breaks and summer). Still worked part-time when I went to a four year university but had to take out a college loan for $10K. In today's dollars, that's $39,642.90. A comparative pittance to today's college costs. OTOH, I could have saved money by staying home and going to Denver Metro to finish up my degree but I wanted the "college experience".

The fact remains college costs have gone up out of proportion to normal inflation. Why? I think the USA Today Op-Ed explained it very well.

 

[Markle]

Doesn't answer the question. How did the 40% of Americans that controlled 2/10 of a percent of the wealth manage to crash the economy?

They didn't. People like Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Clinton, etc. did when they unconstitutionally took over the free market and injected it with mass quantities of idiot socialism.

Interesting hypothesis

Which "socialist bills" did Pelosi, Reid and Clinton pass which crashed the economy?

Just to remind all our FRIENDS from the far left, the responsibility for this mess lies with Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. AND WITH REPUBLICANS for backing off every time Barney Frank and his cronies played…THE RACE CARD! The housing bubble is what led to the downfall and that was driven by Democrats, starting with Jimmy Carter and hugely expanded by Bill Clinton. Here are the facts, once again, for you to ignore….

HUD TO FIGHT DISCRIMINATION, BOOST MINORITY HOMEOWNERSHIP AND WORK WITH URBAN LEAGUE TO FURTHER GOALS
August 5, 1997
HUD to Fight Discrimination, Boost Minority Homeownership and Work With Urban League to Further Goals - Free Online Library


New York Times - 1999
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending -
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending



President Bush’s and the Administrations Unheeded Warnings About the Systemic Risk Posed by the GSEs – Fannie and Freddie dating back to 2001
Just the Facts: The Administration’s Unheeded Warnings About the Systemic Risk Posed by the GSEs


By Elliot Blair Smith,
USA TODAY
Fannie Mae to pay $400 million fine
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0


Franklin Raines was Director of the Office of Management and Budget under Clinton and returned to Fannie Mae as its CEO in 1999. Raines is not a “chief” economic adviser for President Barack Hussein Obama but has advised the administration on mortgage and housing matters. Obama had hired another former Fannie CEO, Jim Johnson as a member of Obama’s V.P. search committee and who was forced to quit under fire.

Bloomberg News -
How the Democrats Created the Financial Crisis -
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0

 

[P@triot]

Doesn't answer the question. How did the 40% of Americans that controlled 2/10 of a percent of the wealth manage to crash the economy?

They didn't. People like Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Clinton, etc. did when they unconstitutionally took over the free market and injected it with mass quantities of idiot socialism.

Interesting hypothesis

Which "socialist bills" did Pelosi, Reid and Clinton pass which crashed the economy?

Just to remind all our FRIENDS from the far left, the responsibility for this mess lies with Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. AND WITH REPUBLICANS for backing off every time Barney Frank and his cronies played…THE RACE CARD! The housing bubble is what led to the downfall and that was driven by Democrats, starting with Jimmy Carter and hugely expanded by Bill Clinton. Here are the facts, once again, for you to ignore….

HUD TO FIGHT DISCRIMINATION, BOOST MINORITY HOMEOWNERSHIP AND WORK WITH URBAN LEAGUE TO FURTHER GOALS
August 5, 1997
HUD to Fight Discrimination, Boost Minority Homeownership and Work With Urban League to Further Goals - Free Online Library


New York Times - 1999
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending -
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending



President Bush’s and the Administrations Unheeded Warnings About the Systemic Risk Posed by the GSEs – Fannie and Freddie dating back to 2001
Just the Facts: The Administration’s Unheeded Warnings About the Systemic Risk Posed by the GSEs


By Elliot Blair Smith,
USA TODAY
Fannie Mae to pay $400 million fine
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0


Franklin Raines was Director of the Office of Management and Budget under Clinton and returned to Fannie Mae as its CEO in 1999. Raines is not a “chief” economic adviser for President Barack Hussein Obama but has advised the administration on mortgage and housing matters. Obama had hired another former Fannie CEO, Jim Johnson as a member of Obama’s V.P. search committee and who was forced to quit under fire.

Bloomberg News -
How the Democrats Created the Financial Crisis -
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0

The free market operates flawlessly. Those that are stupid end up out of business and only they (and their employees in some cases) pay the price. With the idiot government-intervention socialism that libtards have forced upon us, all of society pays the price when idiots do stupid things.

One of many reasons why liberalism is such a failed ideology.

 

[Markle]

Regardless of how crooked the higher ups in Fannie and Freddie might have been, student loans played little or no role in causing the recession. Defaults on student loans were fairly low until the recession was well under way in 2009. Also, 76% of student loans were subsidized which means defaults would have had little impact on the economy.

With ever recession, political forces on both sides of the fence attempt to throw the blame for the recession on programs, institutions, and legislation favored by the opposition.

When you start looking for causes of a recession there are always direct and indirect causes. The direct causes of the recession in the US include the subprime mortgage crisis and the housing bulb. There are many indirect causes such as balance of trade, US government housing policies, and limited regulations on non-depository financial institutions.

As you should know, student loans had nothing to do with the mortgage, financial, housing meltdown. Student loans were well spread around with various private banks as well as Sallie Mae. Now, ALL the student loans are government loans.

Student loans are now over $1.27 TRILLION. That's a LOT of debt for kids that don't even have a job coming out of college.

 

[Markle]

So the banks are responsible for some idiot's bad judgement now?

All any borrower has to do is meet some requirements to be qualified for a loan. If they meet them they get the loan

anything else is on the borrower not the bank

But that's the point. The banks weren't giving loans to people who qualified. They were giving people loans they knew they couldn't afford.

But being a horrible person, I'm sure that you take the side over greedy banks over working people.

Sorry but you're wrong
Those people qualified if barely

And really they buyers were the ones at fault for buying a home on a 5 year ARM interest only loan with no down payment.

They were just as at fault as the people who reupped their mortgages every time the value went up then whined that they were underwater when prices fell.

There were no first mortgages that were interest only.

The problem went back decades. Part of the problem was Congress requiring Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac increase the percentage of sub-prime loans in their portfolios. That required that they lower their standards. Since they had to lower their loan requirements for low and middle-income workers, they had to do it for everyone. People who had...difficulty verifying their income. Hence, the "no-doc" loan was born. You just had to tell the lender how much you made and you got the loan at a slightly higher interest rates. Fannie and Freddie were happy to buy the loans.

On top of that, some of the most popular TV "reality" was "Flip This House" which encouraged, even more, people to go in debt and play that Ponzi scheme. Not surprising, a lot of Realtors were among the hardest hit losers. Well more than half had not been in the business for more than five or six years and had never seen a down market.

 

[Markle]

Whether there should or should not be student loans was not the question but rather their effect on the recession.

However, from a practical standpoint, no student loans would mean no college for many millions of young people and less college would mean losing a major competitive advantage in the global market place, a highly trained workforce.

No student loans would mean that the cost of college would drop like a rock. There would also be many students who don't belong in college, finding other careers.

 

[Flopper]

Whether there should or should not be student loans was not the question but rather their effect on the recession.

However, from a practical standpoint, no student loans would mean no college for many millions of young people and less college would mean losing a major competitive advantage in the global market place, a highly trained workforce.

Sorry, but that's ass-backwards thinking. As fucked up as Obamacare.

The solution isn't to provide "free" healthcare or "free" college, but to make both healthcare and college affordable. As the previous OP-ED I posted explained, all colleges loans and government grants have done is drive college costs up. Fix the causes of rising costs, not just raising taxes to hand out "free" money.

College loans are certainly not free money. In fact, they are one of few loan types that are not discharged in bankruptcy. They follow you to the grave.

Even if college cost came down with lower attendance, they would still be priced way above the reach of the average family. If we abolish loans, college attendance would drop like a rock. Colleges would drop their prices, by laying off teachers, cutting off services to student, and degrading the curriculum, costing less but delivering less. If we are to bring back the economic growth to America that has escaped us in the 21st century we have got to have more and better educated workers, not less.

 

[Flopper]

Whether there should or should not be student loans was not the question but rather their effect on the recession.

However, from a practical standpoint, no student loans would mean no college for many millions of young people and less college would mean losing a major competitive advantage in the global market place, a highly trained workforce.

No student loans would mean that the cost of college would drop like a rock. There would also be many students who don't belong in college, finding other careers.

As would the quality of the education.

 

[Flopper]

Regardless of how crooked the higher ups in Fannie and Freddie might have been, student loans played little or no role in causing the recession. Defaults on student loans were fairly low until the recession was well under way in 2009. Also, 76% of student loans were subsidized which means defaults would have had little impact on the economy.

With ever recession, political forces on both sides of the fence attempt to throw the blame for the recession on programs, institutions, and legislation favored by the opposition.

When you start looking for causes of a recession there are always direct and indirect causes. The direct causes of the recession in the US include the subprime mortgage crisis and the housing bulb. There are many indirect causes such as balance of trade, US government housing policies, and limited regulations on non-depository financial institutions.

As you should know, student loans had nothing to do with the mortgage, financial, housing meltdown. Student loans were well spread around with various private banks as well as Sallie Mae. Now, ALL the student loans are government loans.

Student loans are now over $1.27 TRILLION. That's a LOT of debt for kids that don't even have a job coming out of college.

In my post I said, student loans played little or no role in causing the recession.

 

[Divine Wind]

College loans are certainly not free money. In fact, they are one of few loan types that are not discharged in bankruptcy. They follow you to the grave.

Even if college cost came down with lower attendance, they would still be priced way above the reach of the average family. If we abolish loans, college attendance would drop like a rock. Colleges would drop their prices, by laying off teachers, cutting off services to student, and degrading the curriculum, costing less but delivering less. If we are to bring back the economic growth to America that has escaped us in the 21st century we have got to have more and better educated workers, not less.

Just your opinion or do you have facts to back up the nightmare scenario you painted?

As the USA Today Op-Ed article pointed out, a lot of college money is wasted. Cutting their income would force them to be more efficient.

As others have mentioned, we should move more toward CBT like Khan Academy. The first two years are core classes anyway, so it doesn't matter much. Probably half of Junior and Senior level classes could be computer-based with the rest field or brick'n'mortar classroom classes. The savings could easily cut the cost of a four year degree in half if not by 2/3s.

 

[Skull Pilot]

A Dr has no obligation to tell anyone to stop smoking and that Dr certainly cannot force anyone to do anything

The choice to smoke resides with the individual and it's none of your business

And FYI all the banks know about anyone's ability to pay is what they can find out on a credit score and from pay stubs

It's not up to them to counsel home buyers

Except the banksters didn't do that. They loaned to people they KNEW couldn't repay, figuring they could just foreclose and sell that house again.

And that if it fell apart, truly awful people would insiste they get their baillouts and their bonuses.

Prove that claim.

Banks do not want to foreclose and resell houses

Your image of the evil banker twisting his mustache while throwing a mother and kids out is outdated

And there was plenty of blame to spread around for the crash

Start with the fed that artificially kept interest rates near zero or in some cases negative. If interest rates had risen it would have slowed the market down

How about the government guaranteeing mortgages so it didn't matter if people defaulted?

How about Bill Clinton who signed the deregulation that made too big to fail possible?

And then there is of course the people who knew they couldn't afford the house they were buying and those that kept topping off their mortgage every time the value went up so they could buy a jet ski or a car they couldn't afford?

 

[Skull Pilot]

So the banks are responsible for some idiot's bad judgement now?

All any borrower has to do is meet some requirements to be qualified for a loan. If they meet them they get the loan

anything else is on the borrower not the bank

But that's the point. The banks weren't giving loans to people who qualified. They were giving people loans they knew they couldn't afford.

But being a horrible person, I'm sure that you take the side over greedy banks over working people.

Sorry but you're wrong
Those people qualified if barely

And really they buyers were the ones at fault for buying a home on a 5 year ARM interest only loan with no down payment.

They were just as at fault as the people who reupped their mortgages every time the value went up then whined that they were underwater when prices fell.

There were no first mortgages that were interest only.

The problem went back decades. Part of the problem was Congress requiring Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac increase the percentage of sub-prime loans in their portfolios. That required that they lower their standards. Since they had to lower their loan requirements for low and middle-income workers, they had to do it for everyone. People who had...difficulty verifying their income. Hence, the "no-doc" loan was born. You just had to tell the lender how much you made and you got the loan at a slightly higher interest rates. Fannie and Freddie were happy to buy the loans.

On top of that, some of the most popular TV "reality" was "Flip This House" which encouraged, even more, people to go in debt and play that Ponzi scheme. Not surprising, a lot of Realtors were among the hardest hit losers. Well more than half had not been in the business for more than five or six years and had never seen a down market.

you honestly think a TV show had a part in the real estate market crash?

 

[rightwinger]

Doesn't answer the question. How did the 40% of Americans that controlled 2/10 of a percent of the wealth manage to crash the economy?

They didn't. People like Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Clinton, etc. did when they unconstitutionally took over the free market and injected it with mass quantities of idiot socialism.

Interesting hypothesis

Which "socialist bills" did Pelosi, Reid and Clinton pass which crashed the economy?

Just to remind all our FRIENDS from the far left, the responsibility for this mess lies with Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. AND WITH REPUBLICANS for backing off every time Barney Frank and his cronies played…THE RACE CARD! The housing bubble is what led to the downfall and that was driven by Democrats, starting with Jimmy Carter and hugely expanded by Bill Clinton. Here are the facts, once again, for you to ignore….

HUD TO FIGHT DISCRIMINATION, BOOST MINORITY HOMEOWNERSHIP AND WORK WITH URBAN LEAGUE TO FURTHER GOALS
August 5, 1997
HUD to Fight Discrimination, Boost Minority Homeownership and Work With Urban League to Further Goals - Free Online Library


New York Times - 1999
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending -
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending



President Bush’s and the Administrations Unheeded Warnings About the Systemic Risk Posed by the GSEs – Fannie and Freddie dating back to 2001
Just the Facts: The Administration’s Unheeded Warnings About the Systemic Risk Posed by the GSEs


By Elliot Blair Smith,
USA TODAY
Fannie Mae to pay $400 million fine
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0


Franklin Raines was Director of the Office of Management and Budget under Clinton and returned to Fannie Mae as its CEO in 1999. Raines is not a “chief” economic adviser for President Barack Hussein Obama but has advised the administration on mortgage and housing matters. Obama had hired another former Fannie CEO, Jim Johnson as a member of Obama’s V.P. search committee and who was forced to quit under fire.

Bloomberg News -
How the Democrats Created the Financial Crisis -
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0

I call bullshit

How in the world can a limited number of minority buyers with less than 2/10 of a percent of our wealth have created $20 trillion in lost wealth for those with 99.8 percent of the money?

Don't blame the superwealthy for crashing our economy...blame the minorities for trying to buy a home

 

[Divine Wind]

There is plenty of blame to go around to but to deny Democrats offering tax money to back banks giving risky loans was part of the problem is pure partisanship.

 

[rightwinger]

There is plenty of blame to go around to but to deny Democrats offering tax money to back banks giving risky loans was part of the problem is pure partisanship.

I tend to follow the money

The blame goes to those who were speculating on an inflated real estate market while a complicit government looked the other way

I doubt many poor people were making a fortune during the real estate bubble

 

[Divine Wind]

I tend to follow the money

The blame goes to those who were speculating on an inflated real estate market while a complicit government looked the other way

I doubt many poor people were making a fortune during the real estate bubble

Yes, the rich got richer but to ignore the Democrats who voted for legislation over the years using tax payer dollars to back risky bank loans is partisan blindness.

How can we fix a problem if we don't admit it exists or existed?

 

[AntonToo]

The free market operates flawlessly.

How can anyone take what this guy seriously after an insane statement like that? You know you aren't dealing with a thinking person in touch with reality.

It's like a lefty saying something like "government operates flawlessly".

You know no one is home and the winger-talk-radio was left on loud.

 

[P@triot]

The free market operates flawlessly.

How can anyone take what this guy seriously after an insane statement like that? You know you aren't dealing with a thinking person in touch with reality. It's like a lefty saying something like "government operates flawlessly". You know no one is home and the winger-talk-radio was left on loud.

How convenient that you pulled a single sentence out of a post. I guess when one has lost the argument and is incapable of defending a failed ideology, one must resort to lying.

What I said - and what is 100% true - is that the true free market does operate flawlessly because people and businesses are responsible for risk and so they don't take bad risks. In addition, every entity is independent. In a true free market when GM fails, they go out of business and the rest of us are unaffected. In the idiot illegal liberal socialist market - we all suffer as the American tax payer is forced to fork over billions to "bail out" GM. It's why we're $20 trillion in debt and on the verge of economic collapse like Greece.

Now tell us again how EVERY president experiences a "record number of people on food stamps". Everyone is really enjoying laughing at you.