Let's Talk About The Choke Hold

[FA_Q2]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

I keep seeing called a taser but it looks like a stun gun from the video. Those have a reach of 15 feet or so. Not exactly sure what specific piece of equipment this was.

Those aren't multi-use.

I stand corrected.

There are multi shot stun guns or tazers. This one is a three shot.

 

[FA_Q2]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

I keep seeing called a taser but it looks like a stun gun from the video. Those have a reach of 15 feet or so. Not exactly sure what specific piece of equipment this was.

Those aren't multi-use.

No, they are not. However, there was very little time between the officer firing his weapon and being fired at. In all likelihood it was an instantaneous reaction to having a weapon both pointed at him and then discharged. A perfectly reasonable action on the part of the officer.

Drunk drivers kill people.

This one was passed out in a parking lot at Wendy's.

But yes, they kill people. However, this guy had not. He did not deserve to die.


What gets me is that some fuckwit asshole decided to firebomb the Wendy's over this.

He did not deserve to die unless they couldn't tell if it was the taser or a gun but I don't see him grabbing for a gun but using the taser he was already holding.

What do you think would have happened had he tazed the cop? You just think he was going to walk away after that?

After taking one weapon from the cop had he managed to actually disabled one of them then it is likely he would have tried to kill them. And that time with their service weapon.

As Unkotare said, you remove a weapon from a cop and try and use it against him you are going to die - end of story. The cops are justified in that situation.

What if he had a tank? Or yet a bomber or a suit of invisibility?

.....

What if he was mighty mouse? I fail to see the point of any of those silly questions.

If you are going to ask what if's, we can go down that road many times. We are dealing with what is.

The police officer was in no danger but yet he shot a man twice in the back as he was running away.

I did not ask what ifs. YOU did. I pointed out that is is asinine to expect that a violent suspect trying to disable an officer is simply going to stop after he succeeds at doing so.

 

[pknopp]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

I keep seeing called a taser but it looks like a stun gun from the video. Those have a reach of 15 feet or so. Not exactly sure what specific piece of equipment this was.

Those aren't multi-use.

No, they are not. However, there was very little time between the officer firing his weapon and being fired at. In all likelihood it was an instantaneous reaction to having a weapon both pointed at him and then discharged. A perfectly reasonable action on the part of the officer.

Drunk drivers kill people.

This one was passed out in a parking lot at Wendy's.

But yes, they kill people. However, this guy had not. He did not deserve to die.


What gets me is that some fuckwit asshole decided to firebomb the Wendy's over this.

He did not deserve to die unless they couldn't tell if it was the taser or a gun but I don't see him grabbing for a gun but using the taser he was already holding.

What do you think would have happened had he tazed the cop? You just think he was going to walk away after that?

After taking one weapon from the cop had he managed to actually disabled one of them then it is likely he would have tried to kill them. And that time with their service weapon.

As Unkotare said, you remove a weapon from a cop and try and use it against him you are going to die - end of story. The cops are justified in that situation.

What if he had a tank? Or yet a bomber or a suit of invisibility?

.....

What if he was mighty mouse? I fail to see the point of any of those silly questions.

If you are going to ask what if's, we can go down that road many times. We are dealing with what is.

The police officer was in no danger but yet he shot a man twice in the back as he was running away.

Put your ass in his shoes in that moment and then say that. You're full of shit. The outcome of this situation was tragically unnecessary, but that's on him, not the police officer in this case.

He is at fault also but that shouldn't have been a death sentence.

 

[Jackson]

Drunk drivers kill people.

This one was passed out in a parking lot at Wendy's.

But yes, they kill people. However, this guy had not. He did not deserve to die.


What gets me is that some fuckwit asshole decided to firebomb the Wendy's over this.

It was his decision to up the ante when he assaulted the officer and fled. He made his own decision and he died for it. It was a shame about Wendy's, too. That damn arsonist is still walking around ready to torch another business, possibly affecting innocent people.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

What does that matter? Is someone out there measuring during the fight?

 

[Jackson]

Another black guy was killed this past weekend.

The dude was drunk and passed out in his car in a Wendy's parking lot, blocking the drive-thru.

When the cops showed up, they spent 40 minutes dealing with him.

40 minutes. That's a long time to tie up two policemen.

The cops were very patient with this guy. And the guy was cooperative during that 40 minutes.

But the second a pair of handcuffs touched his wrists, the dude went crazy. The two cops spent the next several minutes struggling with this guy.

The cops were fit. And yet they could not get this guy under control. He got the better of them despite being drunk.

This is not a reflection on the cops. A maniac can take up to 5 people to subdue him. Especially if you don't allow them to use a choke hold.

If you watch the video of the fight, the cops refrained from using a choke hold on the dude, and he was able to not only get away, he was able to disarm them of their taser. It's just luck that is what they had in their hands for him to take and not a gun.

As I watched, I said to my son, "If they used a choke hold on him, that dude would be alive today."

My son hates the cops. He's had some run-ins with them.

But he saw my point.

I've never had an opinion of the choke hold. I know some people have been hurt by choke holds, and I know the rare person has been killed by the choke hold.

But that fight would have been over in seconds if those cops used it. And the dude would be alive.

He would be alive if he didn't put up a fight, too, but that's another discussion.

I worked as security in bars for thirty years and never had any trouble controlling a drunk.

It's possible this guy was high on other stuff too, making him unmanageable.

 

[Indeependent]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

What does that matter? Is someone out there measuring during the fight?

It does make a difference if there's no way the distance would have made the taser effective.
I just don't have practical knowledge of tasers.

 

[JoeMoma]

Resist arrest, take a cops taser gun and fire that taser gun at the cop -- that forces the cop to make split second decisions about what type of force to use. In many situations, if a bad guy points a weapon at a cop, if the cop doesn't react instantly and bring down the bad guy, it results in a dead cop. File this under shit happen. It wasn't the cop's fault.

 

[FA_Q2]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

What does that matter? Is someone out there measuring during the fight?

It does make a difference if there's no way the distance would have made the taser effective.
I just don't have practical knowledge of tasers.

The problem is trying to apply logic established in the safety of your home in a comfy chair to a situation with a violent suspect using a weapon against you. Have you ever been in a situation where your life may end due to inaction or hesitation? I have, simple logic like firing range of a tazer does not really apply.

 

[FA_Q2]

Resist arrest, take a cops taser gun and fire that taser gun at the cop -- that forces the cop to make split second decisions about what type of force to use. In many situations, if a bad guy points a weapon at a cop, if the cop doesn't react instantly and bring down the bad guy, it results in a dead cop. File this under shit happen. It wasn't the cop's fault.

Beat me to it.

 

[Indeependent]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

What does that matter? Is someone out there measuring during the fight?

It does make a difference if there's no way the distance would have made the taser effective.
I just don't have practical knowledge of tasers.

The problem is trying to apply logic established in the safety of your home in a comfy chair to a situation with a violent suspect using a weapon against you. Have you ever been in a situation where your life may end due to inaction or hesitation? I have, simple logic like firing range of a tazer does not really apply.

There's no field training for the police who wield these weapons?
Unless the officer thought he pulled out another weapon but didn't the officers already realize he didn't have a gun?

 

[Unkotare]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

I keep seeing called a taser but it looks like a stun gun from the video. Those have a reach of 15 feet or so. Not exactly sure what specific piece of equipment this was.

Those aren't multi-use.

No, they are not. However, there was very little time between the officer firing his weapon and being fired at. In all likelihood it was an instantaneous reaction to having a weapon both pointed at him and then discharged. A perfectly reasonable action on the part of the officer.

Drunk drivers kill people.

This one was passed out in a parking lot at Wendy's.

But yes, they kill people. However, this guy had not. He did not deserve to die.


What gets me is that some fuckwit asshole decided to firebomb the Wendy's over this.

He did not deserve to die unless they couldn't tell if it was the taser or a gun but I don't see him grabbing for a gun but using the taser he was already holding.

What do you think would have happened had he tazed the cop? You just think he was going to walk away after that?

After taking one weapon from the cop had he managed to actually disabled one of them then it is likely he would have tried to kill them. And that time with their service weapon.

As Unkotare said, you remove a weapon from a cop and try and use it against him you are going to die - end of story. The cops are justified in that situation.

What if he had a tank? Or yet a bomber or a suit of invisibility?

.....

What if he was mighty mouse? I fail to see the point of any of those silly questions.

If you are going to ask what if's, we can go down that road many times. We are dealing with what is.

The police officer was in no danger but yet he shot a man twice in the back as he was running away.

Put your ass in his shoes in that moment and then say that. You're full of shit. The outcome of this situation was tragically unnecessary, but that's on him, not the police officer in this case.

He is at fault also but that shouldn't have been a death sentence.

That's on him. Nothing leading to his death had to happen that HE was not responsible for setting in motion. It is really quite sad that the guy died that night, but it is not right to blame the police officer in THIS case.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

What does that matter? Is someone out there measuring during the fight?

It does make a difference if there's no way the distance would have made the taser effective.
I just don't have practical knowledge of tasers.

The problem is trying to apply logic established in the safety of your home in a comfy chair to a situation with a violent suspect using a weapon against you. Have you ever been in a situation where your life may end due to inaction or hesitation? I have, simple logic like firing range of a tazer does not really apply.

There's no field training for the police who wield these weapons?
Unless the officer thought he pulled out another weapon but didn't the officers already realize he didn't have a gun?

Who the fuck cares? He had a weapon. He could use it on a cop dropping their team in half or even use it on an innocent bystander.

 

[Indeependent]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

What does that matter? Is someone out there measuring during the fight?

It does make a difference if there's no way the distance would have made the taser effective.
I just don't have practical knowledge of tasers.

The problem is trying to apply logic established in the safety of your home in a comfy chair to a situation with a violent suspect using a weapon against you. Have you ever been in a situation where your life may end due to inaction or hesitation? I have, simple logic like firing range of a tazer does not really apply.

There's no field training for the police who wield these weapons?
Unless the officer thought he pulled out another weapon but didn't the officers already realize he didn't have a gun?

Who the fuck cares? He had a weapon. He could use it on a cop dropping their team in half or even use it on an innocent bystander.

Then why is the officer accused of homicide?
I have a feeling this guy threatened them with revenge.

 

[WEATHER53]

Maybe citizens could volunteer as citizen on call and they come and try to help deescalate.

 

[Jackson]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

What does that matter? Is someone out there measuring during the fight?

It does make a difference if there's no way the distance would have made the taser effective.
I just don't have practical knowledge of tasers.

The problem is trying to apply logic established in the safety of your home in a comfy chair to a situation with a violent suspect using a weapon against you. Have you ever been in a situation where your life may end due to inaction or hesitation? I have, simple logic like firing range of a tazer does not really apply.

There's no field training for the police who wield these weapons?
Unless the officer thought he pulled out another weapon but didn't the officers already realize he didn't have a gun?

Who the fuck cares? He had a weapon. He could use it on a cop dropping their team in half or even use it on an innocent bystander.

Then why is the officer accused of homicide?
I have a feeling this guy threatened them with revenge.

Politics.

 

[Indeependent]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

What does that matter? Is someone out there measuring during the fight?

It does make a difference if there's no way the distance would have made the taser effective.
I just don't have practical knowledge of tasers.

The problem is trying to apply logic established in the safety of your home in a comfy chair to a situation with a violent suspect using a weapon against you. Have you ever been in a situation where your life may end due to inaction or hesitation? I have, simple logic like firing range of a tazer does not really apply.

There's no field training for the police who wield these weapons?
Unless the officer thought he pulled out another weapon but didn't the officers already realize he didn't have a gun?

Who the fuck cares? He had a weapon. He could use it on a cop dropping their team in half or even use it on an innocent bystander.

Then why is the officer accused of homicide?
I have a feeling this guy threatened them with revenge.

Politics.

They spent a lot of time with this guy and I bet he threatened to kill them and when they saw he turned the taser on them they believed he would get his revenge on them one way or the other, sooner or later.

 

[FA_Q2]

...
He did not deserve to die unless ....

If you resist arrest, take a weapon from a police officer and fire it at him, you cannot reasonably expect any other outcome.

How far can a taser reach?

What does that matter? Is someone out there measuring during the fight?

It does make a difference if there's no way the distance would have made the taser effective.
I just don't have practical knowledge of tasers.

The problem is trying to apply logic established in the safety of your home in a comfy chair to a situation with a violent suspect using a weapon against you. Have you ever been in a situation where your life may end due to inaction or hesitation? I have, simple logic like firing range of a tazer does not really apply.

There's no field training for the police who wield these weapons?
Unless the officer thought he pulled out another weapon but didn't the officers already realize he didn't have a gun?

I am sure there is some sort of field training and/or qualification. That is not relevant nor is it even relevant in general competency. Current training and qualification standards are a complete joke. Again, the situation and response is MASSIVELY different when you are in it and have the very real chance of never seeing your kids again.

 

[CowboyTed]

Another black guy was killed this past weekend.

The dude was drunk and passed out in his car in a Wendy's parking lot, blocking the drive-thru.

When the cops showed up, they spent 40 minutes dealing with him.

40 minutes. That's a long time to tie up two policemen.

The cops were very patient with this guy. And the guy was cooperative during that 40 minutes.

But the second a pair of handcuffs touched his wrists, the dude went crazy. The two cops spent the next several minutes struggling with this guy.

The cops were fit. And yet they could not get this guy under control. He got the better of them despite being drunk.

This is not a reflection on the cops. A maniac can take up to 5 people to subdue him. Especially if you don't allow them to use a choke hold.

If you watch the video of the fight, the cops refrained from using a choke hold on the dude, and he was able to not only get away, he was able to disarm them of their taser. It's just luck that is what they had in their hands for him to take and not a gun.

As I watched, I said to my son, "If they used a choke hold on him, that dude would be alive today."

My son hates the cops. He's had some run-ins with them.

But he saw my point.

I've never had an opinion of the choke hold. I know some people have been hurt by choke holds, and I know the rare person has been killed by the choke hold.

But that fight would have been over in seconds if those cops used it. And the dude would be alive.

He would be alive if he didn't put up a fight, too, but that's another discussion.

g5000,

I grabbed a robber in London about 10 years ago with a seatbelt hold... Far more effective and far less dangerous...

One arm over the shoulder and one under arm and clasp them together. That ties up an arm as well and allows to have a strong grip without the need to choke him. If you are lying down you can entrap one of his legs as well and he is going no where. Friend just held his free arm.

I am no expert, but cops said what I did was safe for both him and me. It is about technique and a rear naked choke hold is very bad technic unless you looking for a submission or putting the person to sleep (which is dangerous.)

At the end of the day cops are trained to apprehend the guy not administer justice. Shooting him was not justified but honestly the guy report card shows he probably shouldn't have been a cop anyway.

 

[Unkotare]

...I grabbed a robber in London about 10 years ago with a seatbelt hold... Far more effective and far less dangerous...

One arm over the shoulder and one under arm and clasp them together. That ties up an arm as well and allows to have a strong grip without the need to choke him. If you are lying down you can entrap one of his legs as well and he is going no where. ....

I was wondering why, since they basically had his back, neither officer took a rear cross-wrist. Easy enough to put a man down from there, and with two of them no reason he would have gotten up (no neck-kneeling required).